Topic: Advice wanted on starting up my new engine.

[sparty]

Guys,

There is the possibility that I will be ready to start up my new engine by next weekend or early next week or before the first snow fall.   I am seeking advice on how to do it without any problems.

I still have a few things to do:
1. fit engine into frame - Wednesday
2. install oil cooler - when it gets here from Oz
3. install new Kerker exhaust with comp baffle
4. intsall CR carbs
5. hook up Dyna 2000 ignition and set timing
6. fit drive chain

Sparty

[MRieck]

Art
 Sent you an email.

[MRieck]

Remember....you can start the engine with the original filter housing and filter......no need to wait for oil cooler adaptor etc.

[BobbyR]

I think I would put some oil or Marvel in the plug holes so you get a wet start.

[scondon]

 You are going to loooooove that engine,Sparty   I just got my CR's sorted out and on the bike and it is just stupid fast now 

   I'm sure that Mike gave ya all the start-up details in his PM and since he built the beast I bet it's all good. Here's some stuff I learned from Mike and Sam.

    Use the old oil filter for initial start. It should catch the fine particals better than a new filter. Initial start will get your oil full of assembly lube, cam lobe coating and other stuff so you'll be changing the oil and filter in short order anyway.

     A quart of oil poured through one of the tappet covers will prime the return system so oil will fully circulate in a short amount of time. I'd like to say that I had full oil pressure instantly, but I know that's not the case. However, the pressure gauge read a solid 70lbs very quickly and did not waver. Before Mike taught me that one I would have a good five to ten seconds of surging/falling oil pressure when starting a freshly built motor.

      Most people I've talked to have said that the only lubrication needed on a fresh bore is to wipe it down repeatedly with the oil you will be running in the bike. This is done during assembly so unless the engine had sat for a year I would think it's good to go.

[johnny-from-bel]

I think I would put some oil or Marvel in the plug holes so you get a wet start.

Don't hydrolock the engine.

[KB02]

You want advise? here's some advise:
   Hook up a video camera of some kind so that you can post a quick video of the maiden "Vroom."   

I just dropped my head off with Mike for a little bit of work. I already can't wait to get to the point that you are at right now.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Hey Sean,

How about posting your set up. Meaning engine mods, exhaust, air cleaner system, which CRs and the final jetting and, of course, dyno if you have had it done. 

[sparty]

You are going to loooooove that engine,Sparty   I just got my CR's sorted out and on the bike and it is just stupid fast now 

   I'm sure that Mike gave ya all the start-up details in his PM and since he built the beast I bet it's all good. Here's some stuff I learned from Mike and Sam.

    Use the old oil filter for initial start. It should catch the fine particals better than a new filter. Initial start will get your oil full of assembly lube, cam lobe coating and other stuff so you'll be changing the oil and filter in short order anyway.

     A quart of oil poured through one of the tappet covers will prime the return system so oil will fully circulate in a short amount of time. I'd like to say that I had full oil pressure instantly, but I know that's not the case. However, the pressure gauge read a solid 70lbs very quickly and did not waver. Before Mike taught me that one I would have a good five to ten seconds of surging/falling oil pressure when starting a freshly built motor.

      Most people I've talked to have said that the only lubrication needed on a fresh bore is to wipe it down repeatedly with the oil you will be running in the bike. This is done during assembly so unless the engine had sat for a year I would think it's good to go.

How long do you think I should go before changing the initial oil? 200 miles or so?

Mike suggested I should use 10-40 oil for break in.

Thanks for the advice guys.

[angeldeville]

aside from sending it to me for a 100,000 mile "break in"

I'd leave it a quart low and add the final quart through one of the #4 tappet covers just prior to start up.

Put a few (10-15) drops of oil in through the plug holes, add old well gapped plugs.

Fire it up, tune it, spank the crap out of it for about 25-50 miles.

Then add new plugs, and new oil.

On a new engine I change the oil at 50 miles, 200 miles, and 500 miles.

and after that I change at 2000 mile intervals or 6 months, whichever comes first...

[scondon]

aside from sending it to me for a 100,000 mile "break in"

I'd leave it a quart low and add the final quart through one of the #4 tappet covers just prior to start up.

Put a few (10-15) drops of oil in through the plug holes, add old well gapped plugs.

Fire it up, tune it, spank the crap out of it for about 25-50 miles.

Then add new plugs, and new oil.

On a new engine I change the oil at 50 miles, 200 miles, and 500 miles.

and after that I change at 2000 mile intervals or 6 months, whichever comes first...

50-200-500 is exactly what I did too. The 200 mile oil change wasn't planned though, seems I buggered the 4th gear selector on assembly and had to split the cases to fix

  SamCR750 swapped his oil after 20 minutes on the stand. I think the first couple of oil changes are to get all the assembly grease out, more so than debris. My oil looked like sludge at 50 miles and still had an odd sheen at 200. 500 miles looked more like it should and some fine metal powder showed up on the magnetic drain plug.

  10-40 is good for break-in 'cause it circulates so easily and you won't be treating the motor rough anyway. I've been running 10-40 on both bikes, but may switch to 15-40 or 20-50 on the new one since it does get hot with all that high rpm riding. I've been changing oil every 1500 after initial break-in period just to be on the safe side. At 3500 miles that is five oil changes so far

Hey Sean,

How about posting your set up. Meaning engine mods, exhaust, air cleaner system, which CRs and the final jetting and, of course, dyno if you have had it done. 

  Wil do, Rxman. The dyno will be done before Christmas. Just got the CR's on this weekend and am doing initial tuning. With the Dyna 2000 there are more variables to play with between ignition timing and jetting/clip position so it may take a bit for me to get things smoothed out. The weak link in my set-up is the Kerker can with no baffle( just a end cap ) and I hope to have a different pipe on by end of month. I've been watching Sparty's posts with interest 'cause we have similar set-ups.

Mine:

'78 750F motor
K7 head with stage 2 porting(Mrieck), oversize intake valves, Kibblewhite springs,Ti retainers
Webcam 63a cam
Wiseco 836 pistons
balanced/lightened crank(APE)
polished/balanced/shot peened stock F2 rods(Mrieck again)
Keihin CR 29mm carbs w/pod filters
Dyna 2000 ignition
Kerker can on Mac header, no baffle(no back pressure either, pooh)

   Initial tuning so far is:

  Dyna 2000: set on #4 advance curve with 38 degrees total advance timing

  Keihin 29mm:

    #62 pilots, mix screws at 7/8 turns

     Needles in middle clip

     #122.5 mains

     
  So far I've fixed some trouble with the starter circuit on the carbs and with these settings have good idle and great midrange. A little hesitation off idle and slow accel when I crack wide open. Think that mains will have to go above 125 with this exhaust which is why I'm eager to change it out before going much further on tuning.

  OK, sorry to hijack your thread Sparty. Keep posting your results as you get it up and running and I'll do the same

[sparty]

I better buy a case of Castrol and a few oil filters this week.

I'll follow your 50-200-500 advice.

Sparty

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Sparty,

Have you considered using synthetic after the Castrol break in? I have just experienced synthetic for the first time by switching my Fat Boy over. I already knew it was a good idea but expensive. You have an expensive engine. I haven't used it in my old Honda engine because, in this case, it seems a waste. I immediately noticed a MUCH improved shifting (tranny is a seperate unit on the Harley). I can easily find neutral now. I just returned from a 4130 mile trip on my Fat Boy. I was in the desert for 4 days. Temps up to 115 or more. Engine oil temps up to 270. Mostly 240 to 250. The oil has about 5000 miles now and it is only slightly discolored. My main concern was thermal breakdown in the intense heat but the oil has seemed to hold up well. I can't say I noticed a performance difference due to the oil. When I get the 2 expensive Honda engines completed and broken in I will switch to synthetic.

[johnny-from-bel]

I better buy a case of Castrol and a few oil filters this week.

I'll follow your 50-200-500 advice.

Sparty

Do so if you can afford it. I buy oil by the 50 liter barrel

[scondon]

Rxman,

  Which synthetic are you using?  There is significant heat generated in my engine and would like to try synthetic, but know very little about it.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

My oil is that super secretive Harley SYN3. They will not divulge who the manufacturer is. I know how much has been discussed here about oil and I'm not about to start that #$%* again (hint hint everybody let's not go there PLEASE!) so suffice it to say I'd pick one that Honda recommends and I would not try this brand in my Honda. We have to remember that our Hondas use the same oil for the engine, clutch and tranny.

[scondon]

so suffice it to say I'd pick one that Honda recommends and I would not try this brand in my Honda.

   What, and miss the chance to open up a whole new can of #$%* by putting not only synthetic, but HARLEY synthetic, in my precious Honda     Kidding, when I get done with tuning I'll do a site search and ask over at Hayasa and see what others are using

[sparty]

I will eventually use a Synth oil in the bike.  Not sure which brand yet.

[angeldeville]

I still haven't tried going the synthetic route, because I'm cheap, but engines cost more than oil and a few filters.

[MRieck]

 I use Honda HP-4 in all my bikes (semi synthetic)

[scondon]

     Sparty, do ya have a plan on how to run the engine for the first 500-1000 miles of break-in?  Honda says to run their stock CB750 motors below 6000rpm for the first 1000 miles at varying speeds. Sam and Chris have been drag racing theirs after 20 minutes of idling. There's a few different schools of thought on this so would be curious as to what advice you received.

     I've got a lot of twisty roads nearby so usually will spend the weekend running through them at an easy pace. About 250 miles of varying speeds and engine accel/decel. After the first 20 miles I'll do a short, hot run up through the first three gears. At 500 miles I'll go up to 7500rpm, at 1000 miles I stop looking at the tach. Not giving advice, just wanting to compare notes.

I use Honda HP-4 in all my bikes (semi synthetic)

  If it's good enough for the Million Dollar CB....................

[MRieck]

     Sparty, do ya have a plan on how to run the engine for the first 500-1000 miles of break-in?  Honda says to run their stock CB750 motors below 6000rpm for the first 1000 miles at varying speeds. Sam and Chris have been drag racing theirs after 20 minutes of idling. There's a few different schools of thought on this so would be curious as to what advice you received.

     I've got a lot of twisty roads nearby so usually will spend the weekend running through them at an easy pace. About 250 miles of varying speeds and engine accel/decel. After the first 20 miles I'll do a short, hot run up through the first three gears. At 500 miles I'll go up to 7500rpm, at 1000 miles I stop looking at the tach. Not giving advice, just wanting to compare notes.

I use Honda HP-4 in all my bikes (semi synthetic)

  If it's good enough for the Million Dollar CB....................

Varying the RPM's really important and making sure the engine doesn't get to hot is another. The engine needs some load to seat the rings. Bursts through the gears is good. I also quickly cut the throttle from 5,000 or 6,000 for some good engine braking.

[fuzzybutt]

hell, i use revtech oil in my cb. been contemplating a switch to synthetic after the rebuild though. which one is safe to use with a wet clutch like in my 74 750k?

[MRieck]

hell, i use revtech oil in my cb. been contemplating a switch to synthetic after the rebuild though. which one is safe to use with a wet clutch like in my 74 750k?

I use the Honda HP-4. It's semi synthetic. I have Spectro semi synthetic many, many times in the past too. Let's not start an oil thread (GULP!)

[RRRToolSolutions]

I am 100% synthetic in every piece of power equipment I own. I use Motul (sold as Kawasaki) oil in the prescribed 10w-40. I use Mobile 1 in all of my cars, trucks, and even Klotz in my race outboard. I won't start another "oil" thread, but go back and do a search on some of my own experiments and you'll know why. My wife's Mercedes mandates it's use, all Corvettes, Vipers, and Porche autos mandate it's use - from factory fill. I don't believe in conventional break-in crapola.

Sparty, as Mike has told you (he told me about it), pour 1 quart down the #1 tappet hole. Pull the plugs and turn the engine over until you get oil pressure. If you don't have a gauge - I'll send you my Honda tool gauge tomorrow on loan so you can see when it's pressurized. I wanted several cycles of oil being pumped to all metal surfaces so I would spin it until it reached 30 psi (it happens in just 2-3 seconds once primed. I'd let it sit for 5-10 minutes and do it again. Install plugs with anti-seize and 14 lbs.

When I cranked mine up, she had oil where it should be - especailly those rod and main bearings. Still t this day - I'll turn the handle swith to "off" and either kick it over 4-5 times or will spin it over with the electric starter before ever touching the choke until I get 30 lbs oil pressure (my gauge is permenently installed). I will never give it a cold, dry start after watching the gauge. This pre-lube is something I wish all bikes and cars had.

My 02 -
Gordon

[CrisPDuk]

Oh no, an oil thread


I've only ever had two engines built from the ground up, one is the 3.2L V6 in my old ford Sierra which, because the car was mainly a tow-car, got pretty much used and abused from the day it was installed The engine is now 7 years and 160,000 miles old and nicely run in

The other engine was a 1.6L steel cranked 10,000rpm screamer that I had built for my Mk1 Golf hill climb car.  That one got treated with kid gloves and given about 500 gentle road miles before it's competition debut, and turned itself into a very expensive doorstop after only three meetings



The next engine I have built will be the one in my 550, and Mr Rieck will definitely be doing the honours (I've now just got to acquire the suitcase full of Benjamins in readiness), so I'm watching this motor with baited breath

[sparty]

     Sparty, do ya have a plan on how to run the engine for the first 500-1000 miles of break-in?  Honda says to run their stock CB750 motors below 6000rpm for the first 1000 miles at varying speeds. Sam and Chris have been drag racing theirs after 20 minutes of idling. There's a few different schools of thought on this so would be curious as to what advice you received.

     I've got a lot of twisty roads nearby so usually will spend the weekend running through them at an easy pace. About 250 miles of varying speeds and engine accel/decel. After the first 20 miles I'll do a short, hot run up through the first three gears. At 500 miles I'll go up to 7500rpm, at 1000 miles I stop looking at the tach. Not giving advice, just wanting to compare notes.

I use Honda HP-4 in all my bikes (semi synthetic)

  If it's good enough for the Million Dollar CB....................

     Sparty, do ya have a plan on how to run the engine for the first 500-1000 miles of break-in?  Honda says to run their stock CB750 motors below 6000rpm for the first 1000 miles at varying speeds. Sam and Chris have been drag racing theirs after 20 minutes of idling. There's a few different schools of thought on this so would be curious as to what advice you received.

     I've got a lot of twisty roads nearby so usually will spend the weekend running through them at an easy pace. About 250 miles of varying speeds and engine accel/decel. After the first 20 miles I'll do a short, hot run up through the first three gears. At 500 miles I'll go up to 7500rpm, at 1000 miles I stop looking at the tach. Not giving advice, just wanting to compare notes.

I use Honda HP-4 in all my bikes (semi synthetic)

  If it's good enough for the Million Dollar CB....................

Varying the RPM's really important and making sure the engine doesn't get to hot is another. The engine needs some load to seat the rings. Bursts through the gears is good. I also quickly cut the throttle from 5,000 or 6,000 for some good engine braking.

I have a similar plan.  I will set my rev limiter at 7000 for the first 400 miles so that I can't damage anything by accident if I miss a gear.  After 400 I'll move it up to to 8000 for another 100 miles.  At 500, I'll set it at 9000rpms and leave it there for 150 more miles.  After that I'll set it at 10000rpm and go for broke.

Sparty

[scondon]

  My limiter is marked 9-16 (8500-16500rpm I think). Do the new 2000 units go lower? If so that is cool indeed . I have mine set at 9500 now and have yet to have the balls to see if it works. At 7000 the acceleration comes on so strong that their isn't much straight road to wind it up.

[RRRToolSolutions]

Mine is set to 10,500 and I've heard it hit several times. The front is usually just touched from it's defiance of gravity in the lower two gears. A ported head makes all of this possible. The rods just allow it to live afterwards..

My Dyna 2000's minimum rpm is 8,500 and in 500 rpm increments. I picked the 10,500 after getting a seat of the pants feel for where the meat was in the power band. My seat tells me that I'm at peak torque around 8,500 and peak horsepower at just below 10,000. I came to this using the front wheel as a guide. The bike will start lofting the front (power wheelie) in 2nd starting at 8,000 and drops it as the needle hits the 10,000 mark. Since the wheel is reacting to the twisting force of the engine, I gather that the torque drops off fairly quick at the 9,500 + mark. With that, I left a little room for revs and selected 10,500 as the maximum required/desired.

Art, your cam is longer in duration, your head ports larger, and you have the CR31's. My guess is that you're going to need at least 500 more rpm - perhaps 11,000 to get the most. I would expect yours to make it's peak torque rating in the 9,000 range and it's peak hoespower in the 10,500 range. You'll definitely want the revs to fall "above" peak torque as you make each gear change for maximum forward gains. I would also expect every trip past 9,000 to be a rear-wheel only experience in first and second.

It is an odd concept - a CB750 pulling so hard that it will lift the tire upon hitting a particular rpm - but for those who have ridden the newer R6, R1, Gixers, Hondas, and Kaws - this is nothing. It's a lot more fun on an old 500 lb Honda! though and will give you some idea of the personality difference a build like Mike's accomplishes. It turns a nice bike into one that's still very nice, but with all of the attitude you want to dial-up wih the right wrist.

Gordon
 

[Sam Green Racing]

Glad to see it's coming together Art. I think just about everything has been covered in what the guys have said.

The only thing I would add is, Megacycle recommend running the bike static for 20 minutes to remove the coating that they apply to the camshaft. While doing this with the old filter fitted, don't let the motor get to hot. Have a couple of desk fans blowing on full whack onto the front of the motor to replicate air flow. If the motor still gets to hot, give it a rest till it cools down.
After doing this clean off procedure change to a clean filter and run the bike in as Mike has no doubt told you.

Just to add to what Sean said about our bike being raced soon after this clean off period, you have to bare in mind that our motor was built with clearances ready to race.
Like has also been said, people have differing thoughts about how a bike should be broken in. If Mike as the engine builder has given you specific  instructions on how to run the motor in you should follow them.

Have fun Art, I have no doubt you will sped a lot of time looking at the sky

Sam.

[scondon]

  Sam,  I was wondering when you would pop in. Thanks for filling in the blanks about your motor. Just wanted to show the spectrum between stock and "race" motors.


   Ilbikes,  yes, YES!  It's exactly like that   It's usually when the front wheel starts lifting that I chicken out a bit. I suddenly remember the yahoo that actually built my motor and wonder "did he really get the torque right on those rod bolts" The Keihin CR's really woke the bike up from it's "break-in" slumber and I am having great difficulty obeying the speed laws in any gear.

[Sam Green Racing]

Sounds like it's dyno time again The CRs really woke up the old motor when we fitted them.

Since fitting the 4 into 1 it's been running very rich, I'll post a race report from last weekend in the CR836 results thread.

Sam.

[sparty]

I now have all of the parts to put everything together.  However.  The fittings I bought for the Terry cooler do not fit into the cooler itself.  I bought 1/4" NPT and they won't fit.  The fittings are too large in size.  I just wrote to Terry.  The fittings fit fine in the oil filter adaptor, but not the cooler itself.

Art

[skishyishy]

Sorry to bop in as a newbie and change the pace, but im starting an overhaul and would like to get some of my engine build (porting especially) done by someone who knows these bikes.  Who is Mike? Does he or anyone else you can recommend do this kind of work?
thanks

[MRieck]

I now have all of the parts to put everything together.  However.  The fittings I bought for the Terry cooler do not fit into the cooler itself.  I bought 1/4" NPT and they won't fit.  The fittings are too large in size.  I just wrote to Terry.  The fittings fit fine in the oil filter adaptor, but not the cooler itself.

Art

Art
       Earl's and Aeroquip sell a lot of different adaptors (reducers etc).

[scondon]

Sorry to bop in as a newbie and change the pace, but im starting an overhaul and would like to get some of my engine build (porting especially) done by someone who knows these bikes.  Who is Mike? Does he or anyone else you can recommend do this kind of work?
thanks

  That would be the "modest" Mrieck, listed in the Services Offered section(Parts for Sale).

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?board=50.0

[joeb]

Mr.Rieck  comes very hightly recommnded in my book. 

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

"WHO IS MIKE?" Mike is THE HEAD MAN

[andy750]

Do a forum search on Mike and you`ll understand why we are all recommending him. Hard to find someone better than Mike for quality, craftsmanship and someone who stand behind his work. (plus all of us praising him have had the work done by him and are highly pleased).

(and Im hoping for a discount on my next job  ).

Cheers
Andy