Author Topic: 84 year old Honda rider...  (Read 11904 times)

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eldar

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2007, 02:50:52 PM »
84 years is an amazing age to be riding. Maybe the group can in a round about way see how repair is going. If he is not repairing, then give him some friendly guff an find out why. If it is a money issue, maybe the group has a person who can loan him a ride and then the rest of you can fix his.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2007, 03:03:11 PM »
Good old Eldy, you've just unhijacked this thread ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2007, 03:37:42 PM »
TT, thanks for quoting that source.  It makes my case very well, indeed.  Here's a quote for you from your own source:

"The fatal accident frequency rate per mile is 3.0 times greater for drivers over 65 years of age than for drivers in the 30-55 age bracket" -- from  page 2 (pg. 74 in study), paragraph 4 in the "discussion" section.

Hmmm... it does not bode well for 80+ year olds, if mere 65 year olds are 3 times as dangerous as 30-55 year olds behind the wheel.  Too bad this study doesn't specifically study those over the age of 80.  They group all "OVER 64" drivers into one group.  I guess it was just too far-fetched to even consider that anyone would still be driving at 80.

I do note you are suggesting increased scrutiny on a group of persons of which you are not a part.  The laws-for-someone-else-syndrome I call it.

TT, go back and read my posts again.  You are mis-quoting me.   I specifically said that ALL drivers should be re-tested more frequently, not just OLDER or YOUNGER drivers.  YOU seem to think that re-testing would affect older drivers more than younger drivers.  Also, please note that I specifically suggested changing the tests to measure things like impulsive behavior, and judgement calls that younger drivers are not likely to fare well on.  I was trying to be even more fair than the researchers in that study of yours.

Quote
Rather than going after a specific age group based on your personal test case of one, and in order have the largest impact on accident statistics in all age groups, make the demonstrable proficiency of the entire DL population higher.  How about doing a 4 wheel skid recovery? Or, control of vehicle under maximum braking effort?  Or, a high speed chicane?
These kind of skills are likely to be needed just prior to an accident event, and proficiency of the skills could minimize or avoid the accident itself.

Again, go back and read my previous posts.  I recommended making the tests more stringent as well, including judgment calls that younger people probably would not be as capable of making as older folks.  I happen to think that you have made some excellent suggestions for tests.

Quote
In essence, I feel your scrutiny on a very small population of accident contributors is driven more by revenge than actual concern about the overall accident rate.  If you want the most bang for your buck, don't fix the corner cases, apply a fix to the entire population.

I should have expected that older people would take this too personally, and not been objective.  However, I never would have thought that you would, TT.  Based on prior experience, I thought you, of all the people on this forum, would have been objective and analytical and would have actually read my suggestions and your own quoted source carefully before commenting on them here.

Yes, I proudly proclaim that I believe that people in their 80's getting behind the wheel of an automobile or handlebars of a motorcycle as dangerous in itself.  It is just plain ludicrous!  Simple common sense dictates that at such extreme ages, anyone who is qualified to drive is the exception, rather than the rule.  Yes, no doubt part of my perception is based on the reality of my personal experience and observation, but the results of the study you have quoted certainly bear out my hypothesis.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2007, 03:52:45 PM »
Ed, you've made your feelings on the situation 100% perfectly crystal clear.  I don't think anyone could possibly be confused about what your stance on the issue of older people operating motor vehicles is. 

Offline nickjtc

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2007, 03:58:59 PM »
My 44 cents worth... (the usual 4 cents + inflation).

As a driver and rider examiner I am regularly on the receiving end of this whole discussion. IMHO there will never be mandatory routine re-testing of drivers or riders in North America, for two reasons:

1) There isn't the political 'will' to initiate the change to the law. North Americans still believe that it is their God-given right to operate a motor vehicle and there isn't a politician out there who will put their career on the line for what would be such an unpopular decision.

2) Speaking for here in BC, there aren't enough examiners to keep up with normal tests, let alone the potential deluge of age-related re-tests. We have back-logs now until November hereabouts. The testing process is mandated here by the provincial government so the extra funding to promote a change in the system would have to be found somewhere........which goes back to #1.

As to making such a change: statistics are what drive (excuse the pun) changes to the status quo. The reality is that older drivers are not over represented in accident statistics hereabouts. The problem is that the media go into a frenzy when there is the occasional incident involving an older driver. We have fatal road accidents on a regular basis on the Trans Canada Highway passing through here. These accidents get nothing more than a perfunctory comment on the news, unless there was an older driver involved.

Should older drivers be driving?? In my experience the challenges that older (and by this I mean 70+) drivers face are exactly the same as younger drivers: that of staying within the law. That means stopping at stop signs and not speeding. Most of the older folks I test are more than capable of physically operating the car. In my experience those that have reached the end of their driving career know when it is time to hang up the keys.

Should there be mandatory re-testing?........Should there be mandatory helmet laws??? If you say yes to one, then you cannot really say no to the other.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2007, 04:00:10 PM »
................and in response to the purpose of this thread. Honour the gentleman in some form of a celebration and just ask what his thoughts are on fixing the bike.
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Offline paulages

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2007, 04:11:38 PM »
Well, TT, young driver's accident and insurance rates are higher for various reasons, but most obviously because of their relative inexperience.  They have not yet developed the ability to predict how other drivers will react, to judge how many feet it will take to stop a vehicle in various weather conditions, etc.  So they do tend to have more accidents ON AVERAGE.  Perhaps testing should actually attempt to test these skills in addition to the purely mechanical processes of parallel parking, etc.

[/quote]

i'm 31, with a perfect driving record, and my car insurance rates are still higher than many 18-year olds i know who fall into some other demographic group which statistically represent a lower risk. as my agent explained it to me, the insurance companies no longer offer coverage rates based on simple demographics such as age and sex, but rather do so based purely on the statistics of your particular group at the time when you buy your policy. this means that 40-year old males who smoke and are single but divorced may statistically have fewer accidents than 18-year old females who are married even if a particular example has had 3 wrecks already. my guess is that this argument could fairly easily by backed by statistical information that happens to have already been diligently prepared by the insurance industry. any agents out there?


hope you don't plan on getting old, edbiker-- karma's a #$%*...


on the original topic-- tell the guy you'll all be offended if he doesn't allow your group to help fix his bike. surely he doesn't want his friends to be happy, right?  ;D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 04:13:23 PM by paulages »
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Offline Jinxracing

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2007, 04:33:52 PM »
If you want to eliminate some of the sentimentality that might accompany awarding the old feller with a heartfelt award of some sort, why not bust his balls a little bit to balance out the good deed? Give him a "crusty old fart" award and tell him that you're there with your friends to fix his bike because riding without him means that someone else has to arrive last to your destination. At the very least, it would help to prevent an Overhaulin'-like, teary-eyed, choked-up slobberfest.

Edbiker...wow...I'm sorry you got taken out by a gherkin in an LTD, but c'mon, don't you think that talking about your angry feelings with a professional would be easier than mounting a one-man crusade to revamp our lisence-testing system? Just a thought. Ralph Nader did that with the Pinto, and look where that got us: no more Pintos! Sorry, bad example. ;)
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2007, 04:59:50 PM »
hope you don't plan on getting old, edbiker-- karma's a #$%*...

Karma?  You think that I'm the one who's going to have the bad karma?  Wow, you've got it bass-ackwards.  Don't you think that it is pretty damned selfish for an 80+ year old to knowlingly climb behind the wheel and endanger everybody else.  Remember, according to TT's study, drivers 65 and over have a THREE TIME higher risk of getting into fatal accidents than 30-55 year olds.

Yes, I hope to grow old.  I also hope to have the sense not to be the proverbial "old fool".  I'd rather not kill off my great-grandchildren.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2007, 05:10:53 PM »
Quote
The problem with all statistics is their interpretation bias, collection bias, and mathematical manipulation of the data. 

edbikerii,
 I don't believe any research, data, or analysis provided on my part would possibly change your mind.  So, I am simply not going to expend any more energy on this thread hijack, as it won't make a bit of difference.  You have your opinion, I have mine.  They differ.  I hope you are as secure with yours as I am with mine. 
Every elderly person I know withdrew from driving voluntarily, often on doctor's advice, as they realized it was no longer safe to do so. I'm sure there are some that don't.  But, most don't lose their judgment simply because they age, and as they age they learn their limitations.  If you prefer to force limitations on others rather than having them deal with it on their own terms, that's your bliss. 

I don't believe we need yet another vehicle for the government to meddle with the populace in the form of recurrent testing to minimum (questionable) standards.  Force-ably removing elderly drivers from driving activities (that don't self discipline) will effect a very small percentage of the overall accident rate.  I suppose you overlooked that only 573,000 of the 15.5 million accidents were in the 65 and older group, or about 2.7% of the total in this very old study.  Why you vehemently pursue this small percentage in the name of overall safety, betrays your vengeful intent, it would seem.

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2007, 05:14:57 PM »
Edbiker...wow...I'm sorry you got taken out by a gherkin in an LTD, but c'mon, don't you think that talking about your angry feelings with a professional would be easier than mounting a one-man crusade to revamp our lisence-testing system? Just a thought. Ralph Nader did that with the Pinto, and look where that got us: no more Pintos! Sorry, bad example. ;)

Um, Jinx, this all started by me saying that the old man should just not ride anymore at the ridiculous age of 84.  The rest was in response to attacks from others.  I don't harbor any angry feelings for something that happened to me 18 years ago, and that I fully recovered from 17 years ago.  That incident merely brought the greater problem to my attention.

Yeah, great point about Ralph Nader, too.  I'm really happy that we don't have deathtraps like Pintos on the road anymore.  He really did help society by bringing safety into car buyers' minds.  That forced the automakers to start providing safety features which helped save many, many lives over the subsequent decades.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2007, 05:19:53 PM »
Again, no, TT.  I did not overlook the total number of accidents in the age group.  Nor did I ignore the fewer miles that people in that age group self-reported to drive.  I simply quoted the more accurate PER MILE statistic, and quoted the authors of the source that you presented.

No vengeful intent.  Just the facts.

I suppose you overlooked that only 573,000 of the 15.5 million accidents were in the 65 and older group, or about 2.7% of the total in this very old study.  Why you vehemently pursue this small percentage in the name of overall safety, betrays your vengeful intent, it would seem.
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Offline dustyc

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2007, 05:31:39 PM »
On the other hand there are people that don't really show their age.

I was talking with a guy I've known for a year or so and he told me it was his 90th birthday.  I was blown away.  I would have bet he was in his late 60s.  I confirmed it with some other people because I just couldn't believe he is 90.

Back on topic-
I'd say first, just shoot the breeze with Dave and see what his plans are.  You could plan something around a significant event like his birthday.  Or do it while he's on vacation.  If you're honoring him, you could start an award like the Moto-Octogenarian patch/plaque -just think up a better name.




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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2007, 05:38:59 PM »
Thanks for the input on the German system, antiq.  I guess I was mistaken about the re-testing.  I had read that German testing was much more stringent and ongoing -- I guess "ongoing" was in reference to the very strict penalties for infractions.  That is obviously very effective at preventing accidents, and getting unsafe drivers off the road.

Overall, however, I have to disagree with your assumption that testing will not improve safety.  You aren't presenting any statistical evidence to back that up.  I need only point to Germany where the driver education and testing is much more stringent, and they have much lower fatality rates, and much higher speed limits.

Yes, the increased bureacracy does concern me, but I feel that the overall cost reduction to everyone might be greater.  Are there any Germans reading this who have experience with their more stringent testing and its effects on safety?
 
Yes the german drivers education is much more involved and MUCH more expensive. But once issued that license is for a LIFETIME. There are no requirements to renew or retest EVER. I drove there for twelve years. My wife was born there. Every  traffic infraction is a felony there are no misdemeanors I'm aware of. You run out of gas you get a very stiff fine because proffesional drivers know how much gas is in the vehicle. You mention lower fatality rates I'd like to see the actual figures. Are you thinking that X number accidents per country are comparible? Germany isn't much bigger than Texas.

I'm 50 years old and just recently passed the skills testing and put the motorcycle endorsement back on my license. I'm constantly frustrated by idiots half my age trying to sneak up on a highway, IT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE! They try to merge into traffic going 65mph on the highway and they are going 45 or 50mph on the on ramp! Age has nothing to do with ability. What is actually the controlling component in Germany are the very strict laws and a distinct lack of concern for police brutality.

Okay that said I agree with the BBQ & repair get together. In the meantime I think it's an inspiration to ask the old guy to exercise a members spare bike that's been neglected a bit. The old guy has obviously earned a great deal of respect and admiration from his club. Who are we? Any of us to disrespect this man in any way? I say honor him with a plaque, a BBQ, and get his bike fixed.
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Offline m00ntan

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2007, 05:42:41 PM »
Ed, focus please.  

This is a discussion about somebody managing to ride a bike for forty years.
This is a club dedicated to thirty year old bikes.

Only an idiot or welfare could come here to suggest old riders should be grounded.
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Offline m00ntan

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2007, 05:45:04 PM »
Glenn, please send the old man a t-shirt.  Bill me.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 07:37:58 PM by m00ntan »
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2007, 05:56:41 PM »
Ed, focus please.  

This is a discussion about somebody managing to ride a bike for forty years.
This is a club dedicated to thirty year old bikes.

Only an idiot or welfare could come here to suggest old riders should be grounded.

My bike is 30 years old, too.  Does that mean I should put aside common sense?  Come on man.  Denial won't make 80 year old drivers any safer.
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Offline Jinxracing

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2007, 06:10:24 PM »
Yeah, great point about Ralph Nader, too.  I'm really happy that we don't have deathtraps like Pintos on the road anymore.  He really did help society by bringing safety into car buyers' minds.  That forced the automakers to start providing safety features which helped save many, many lives over the subsequent decades.

So you're a Nader fan, eh? Are you happy with mandatory seatbelt laws? How about mandatory helmet laws? How about making alcohol illegal? It would save lives. So would eliminating motorized vehicles. I can think of quite a few dangerous things that we all face on a daily basis that, if eliminated or outlawed, would save lots of lives. I'm sure you can think of a few too.

If protecting the sanctity of human life is your number one priority, then is it safe to assume that the bike in your avatar sits pristine in your living room and never gets ridden? I'm sure the people in your life who love you would breathe a little easier if they knew you weren't riding that dangerous machine. Should we outlaw motorcycles? It would certainly save some lives...even if it saved just one life, that would be worth it, right?

Let the old guys ride. Let everybody ride. Motorcycles are dangerous Edbiker, but we choose to ride them anyway. That in itself is proof enough that there's something more to life than simply protecting it.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 06:13:58 PM by Jinxracing »
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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2007, 06:16:17 PM »
The right to ride was taken away by state and provincial governments not that long ago.  Some of those (us) old guys still recall when it was a right.  And now we're discussing forced retesting?  Oh the indignity! Begging for the "privilege" to ride,  and especially since it would be based on an arbitrary age decision.   I'm not even a Yank, but I see plenty of irony as well as freedom and persuit of happiness issues in that.

Oh, the rationalizing and bleeding hearts change with time, but its still big brother.  At first, licensing was a census and tracking issue, then it became a "safety" issue, then a revenue cow...Next, would you like Uncle Sammy to wrap a blankie around you while you ride, poochie-kins?




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Offline m00ntan

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2007, 06:43:46 PM »
Ed, write congress.  Also tell them old politicians should be impeached.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 07:38:35 PM by m00ntan »
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2007, 06:54:03 PM »
Wow, Jinx, you've got quite a knack for reading things that aren't written, huh?  All I said was that it was a good thing that Nader brought safety into the minds of the car-buyers and you turn it into a discussion about locking myself in the house?

What, now you don't think that cars being equiped with safety equipment is a good idea?

Get real, man.

Yeah, great point about Ralph Nader, too.  I'm really happy that we don't have deathtraps like Pintos on the road anymore.  He really did help society by bringing safety into car buyers' minds.  That forced the automakers to start providing safety features which helped save many, many lives over the subsequent decades.

So you're a Nader fan, eh? Are you happy with mandatory seatbelt laws? How about mandatory helmet laws? How about making alcohol illegal? It would save lives. So would eliminating motorized vehicles. I can think of quite a few dangerous things that we all face on a daily basis that, if eliminated or outlawed, would save lots of lives. I'm sure you can think of a few too.

If protecting the sanctity of human life is your number one priority, then is it safe to assume that the bike in your avatar sits pristine in your living room and never gets ridden? I'm sure the people in your life who love you would breathe a little easier if they knew you weren't riding that dangerous machine. Should we outlaw motorcycles? It would certainly save some lives...even if it saved just one life, that would be worth it, right?

Let the old guys ride. Let everybody ride. Motorcycles are dangerous Edbiker, but we choose to ride them anyway. That in itself is proof enough that there's something more to life than simply protecting it.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2007, 06:59:19 PM »
Seems like some of guys don't know how to read, huh?  Nobody -- not me -- not anyone in this thread -- has asked that only older people be forced to get re-tested.  I think it is a good idea that ALL drivers get re-tested periodically.

And no, you don't have the right to endanger other road users, and you NEVER DID.  You know, "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" applies to people other than yourself, too.

The right to ride was taken away by state and provincial governments not that long ago.  Some of those (us) old guys still recall when it was a right.  And now we're discussing forced retesting?  Oh the indignity! Begging for the "privilege" to ride,  and especially since it would be based on an arbitrary age decision.   I'm not even a Yank, but I see plenty of irony as well as freedom and persuit of happiness issues in that.

Oh, the rationalizing and bleeding hearts change with time, but its still big brother.  At first, licensing was a census and tracking issue, then it became a "safety" issue, then a revenue cow...Next, would you like Uncle Sammy to wrap a blankie around you while you ride, poochie-kins?




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Offline m00ntan

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2007, 07:06:42 PM »
Focus Ed.  You are writing in the SOHC4 forum.
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Offline my78k

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2007, 07:09:08 PM »
LMAO...this is slowly turning into the pointless boost thread...what a waste of time!

Move on here fellas...I know I have...

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: 84 year old Honda rider...
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2007, 07:12:02 PM »
And yet more words get put into my mouth, huh?  Just because drivers over age 65 are 300% more likely to be involved in fatal accidents, certainly doesn't mean that people over 65 are less suited to legislating.  In fact, I believe that older legislators are probably better for society as a whole due to their greater life experience.

In fact, I'm surprised to hear so many older people chime in here who are foolish enough to believe that it is safe for people in their 80's to drive.  I thought you guys would be old enough to know better.

Write congress.  Also tell them old politicians should be impeached.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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