Author Topic: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine  (Read 3397 times)

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farmertom

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Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« on: July 10, 2005, 09:46:00 PM »
Hey y'all,

Been working on my own CB750 Frankenbike for a few months now.  Finished welding up a seat pan today, and am down to rebuilding brake calipers, welding the gas tank back together (after cutting the seam and bangin' out the bondo), and finishing up the wiring.

With four CB750s in the garage, and a collection of old bike parts (cause I can't bear to throw anything away), I have lots of pieces to choose from.  Currently I've got an old Hodaka Ace 90 taillight in place.

Just wonderin', what's a complete sandcast engine worth these days?

farmertom

Offline Mark M

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2005, 01:52:11 AM »
The sad truth is that you have to pay the city to dispose of these old engines. The specialist equipment needed to cope with the toxic wastes is very expensive and can only be performed by highly tained, though underpaid civil servants or simians.

If you would care to forward it to me, under plain wrapper perhaps marked with some biohazard stickers to fend of the curious, I would be more than happy to arrange for its disposal in an unmarked grave.

In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2005, 03:32:04 AM »
Ha, good one!  ;)
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farmertom

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2005, 07:19:03 AM »

I imagine the same is true for the Hondamatic that sits next to it.  Alas, having an environmentalist bent, I shall probably have to turn them into some form of impressionistic art.  Oh well.  :'(



Offline Mark M

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2005, 07:27:25 AM »
Hondamatics can be turned into good nitrogen rich fertiliser, providing you live near a nuclear powerplant and have some of those 'evolved' worms handy. If not many parts can make good planters, a good crop of potatoes can be grown in the crancase halves, the old engine oil makes them particularly good for the fast food market. ;D 
In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

farmertom

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2005, 08:17:04 AM »

Okay, so the first note was meant to be a bit of a teaser.  I suppose that I should be a little more forthcoming.

I've been lurking for "a while"  -- I obtained member number 988 on the old site a year or more ago.  I'm sitting in the Seattle area with a garage full of old bikes in various states of repair.  My propensity for procrastination is such that I'm just now uncovering the stuff that I bought in 1988.

The current focus of my efforts is a 1970 CB750 K (near as I can tell, based on the sandcast engine -- in the 4000's).  Sitting next to it, and purchased at the same time is a 1972 K2.  The K2 is "nearly original", with a few exceptions.  It's got K1 "Candy Ruby Red" headlight ears, and (it appears) K1 style rear turn signal mounts.  Major problem with the 1970 is that the steering head was cut off in California, and replaced with a severely raked home-made one.   Fine, except though usable, the frame ain't collectible, and because of the severity of the rake, and the insufficient gage of material used for the replacement steering head, the lower bearing race was peeled apart when the previous owner clocked the front end to one side and ripped off the fork stop.  Oh well.  I went to a guy who reinforced and welded it together to be more robust, and have, at last, a usable frame (though it will probably handle like a V-Rod).  I'm planning on this being the daily driver, which I'm trying to put on the road with whatever parts seem to work -- hence the old Hodaka Ace 90 taillight.  All the original and good stuff I'm putting in a pile next to the K2 (with K1 bits) -- including the sandcast engine. 
The 1977 Hondamatic sits next to it.  I haven't seen one yet that didn't have a rotten exhaust on the right side.  Bought that 10-years or so ago for $250.  Rode it for a couple of years, and decided that I needed to tear off the top end and give it new rings and valve job, because it was showing signs of reduced compression.  Bought some JCWhitney pipes to fabricate replacements for the rotted originals.  I don't consider the bike all that collectible because of the Vetter fairing and floorboard retrofit by the original owner, but it was a fun ride when I had it going -- but certainly not a sport-bike.
The 1978 Honda Goldwing sits next to that.  I've washed the carbs twice (though apparently not well enough), and still can't get it to idle right.  Two options -- Randakk's rebuild kit (which I have), or go to a single carb setup ala Solex carb with homebuilt manifold (cause Cycle Innovations is kaput).
The 1978 CX500 sits in pieces next to that.  Haven't even gotten into that to know what it needs.
The 1967 CT90 sits next to that.  Dad's old hunting bike.  The only bike in the garage that currently runs.

Oh, the fourth CB750 is a 1973  K3 that I found abandoned in a field and which has provided many parts for the Frankenbike.


So, now you know the rest of the story.  What's a sandcast engine worth?  Intake boots are mangled.  Missing the countershaft sprocket cover - otherwise complete.  Cases are intact and good looking.  Cylinders and head have all good fins.  I took the top end off and the cam chain adjuster is chewed.  Original diameter bores in serviceable condition.  One valve stem is slightly mushroomed.  Countershaft sprocket is 18-tooth (versus 17), and teeth are broken off -- but no damage to cases.  Carbs are stamped "7A" (vs. 657A), and have brass floats.  Two of the carb tops need the little rubber grommets.
I'm left debating whether to do a rebuild myself and keep it as a ready spare, or to call someone like WorldCycles and see what they're willing to give me for it.  Given that it's hazardous waste, and all.  :)


Offline Mark M

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2005, 08:32:47 AM »
I wish I could help - I'm in the UK and as they never officialy imported any sandcasts, they are rarer than hens teeth over this side of the pond. A fully resored show bike could be worth £10k plus, so a compleet engine would have to be in the £000's I guess. 

Ebay might be a good way to go, or there is a sandcast owners site (can't remember the URL but you could do a search)
Either way I think I'd get the engine cleaned up and running, to get the best price on it.
In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2005, 09:20:35 AM »
I believe this is the sandcast only site Mark might be refering to;

http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/
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farmertom

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2005, 09:36:50 AM »

Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.



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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2005, 12:52:39 AM »
As ever, this link has been in the FAQs for ages  8) (smug look)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2005, 05:10:41 AM »
If it's a 1970 build engine, it's probably not a sandcast. Still good to have being a K0, but not particularly valuable. There was a 1970 K0 engine on ebay this morning going for 50 bucks with only one bidder, engine was "stuck", but not mechanically siezed and looked very good externally. I would have bid, but the shipping from the US to Oz would probably buy me a genuine sandcast, ha ha!

Mark, my Irish mate, Eamon Maloney, who lives (well I hope he still lives?) in London owns the first K0 imported into Britain, the one that was at the (Earls Court?) show in 1969, and has been featured in several magazines in recent years. You should contact him, he's got a lot of "mint" bikes. I'll see if I can find his email address for you? Cheers, Terry ;D
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Sterling2

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2005, 05:41:49 AM »
 Sandcast bikes are in big demand, so take your time with this. Your best bid will come from someone who owns an empty frame number within 300-400 of your engine number. To that buyer your motor could be worth as much as $2,000.  I sold a sandcast engine six months ago to such a buyer for $1,500. The flip side is that you could look for an empty frame to match your engine and restore it yourself. Done properly, you'll have a bike worth $10,000 + when finished. Email me offline if you need more info.

Offline Mark M

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2005, 07:14:16 AM »
Terry - thanks for the heads up, yes it was his bike and he has already been in contact, a cople of weeks ago now.

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
:-*
In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

Offline Harry

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2005, 11:38:52 PM »
Mark, my Irish mate, Eamon Maloney, who lives (well I hope he still lives?) in London owns the first K0 imported into Britain, the one that was at the (Earls Court?) show in 1969, and has been featured in several magazines in recent years. You should contact him, he's got a lot of "mint" bikes. I'll see if I can find his email address for you? Cheers, Terry ;D

Well now, that very bike can be seen at Earls Court, in the video section! What a very small world...
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2005, 02:17:11 AM »
Seems I recall reading somewhere, that the true "K0" was, in fact, a designation limited to a very few bikes imported (or exported depending on your point of view) to the UK. Other than these, what most folks call the K0 is really just the CB750, or pre-K1's. The only thing that sort of clouds this as 'fact' is that even the Honda dealers parts system refers to mine as a K0, so I'm not sure this is myth or fact.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2005, 03:09:09 AM »
You might have something there Bob, when I was a kid we called my mates first model CB750 a "Pre-K1", and I only heard that "K0" term much later, probably about the same time I started looking at ebay in 1999. Hmmnnn, I wonder what happened to that bike?

Now this has got me thinking, because I've got some pics of the CB750 "prototype" that was used in US bike shows, magazine articles and adverts and it has many diferences, both mechanical and aesthetic, from the "KO's" that we are used to, things like all metal front brake lines, round sidecover badges, different shape alternator cover and starter motor cover, alloy points cover, etc etc. This was not a "mock up", but a running motorcycle, maybe it was the real "K0"? Cheers, Terry. ;D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 03:20:39 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Mark M

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2005, 06:52:08 AM »
I once wrote a magazine article on model identification, explaining how the different manufacturers use letters and numbers. At the time Honda used a letter for the year....anyway I digress. The current trend is to assign the last letter as the general model type then add a number for the year, much as Honda did back in 69/70. I'm quite happy to believe that they were dipping their tow in the water with first K, hence the sandcast cases etc. This would lead me to suggest they didn't have a plan for a K1 at that time. These days when they use the year number system they start with a 1, GSXR1000K1, ZXR750L1 etc. So there was no such thing as a K0, or atleast not until the K1 was planned, which I would guess was part way through the production year.

   
In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2005, 07:31:47 AM »
I'm enclined to agree. I have a copy of the parts list for the early 750's thru the K2 and including the CB750P (police model). It was published in '71 and refers to the CB750 (note no model desigation), the CB750K1 and the CB750K2 which leads me to believe Honda wasn't sure there would be any others when they first introduced it, or had not planned that far ahead yet. There is no reference anywhere in the document to a "K0."
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cb750_chris

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Re: Frankenbike and the sandcast engine
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2005, 04:45:51 PM »
Indeed Honda didn't know if they would keep making the 750.  Thats why they made sandcast engines to start with and didn't invest in making the dies untill sales took off.  Could also have something to do with timing as they were trying to beat Kawasaki to the 750 punch. 

I feel they did intend it to be a K0 model though.  They used K0 to designate other bikes before the 750 such as the K0450 that started in 1965.  I'm fine with refering to mine as a K0.  It saves a lot of explaining and makes shoping for parts much easier. 

What a pain it would be to keep asking for "pre K CB750 parts".