Author Topic: '78 CB750F front brakes  (Read 3745 times)

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Offline Darrell

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'78 CB750F front brakes
« on: September 15, 2007, 12:38:53 PM »
Ok, so after having the brakes pretty much fail on me at the beginning of the summer, I've replaced the brake lines, master cylinder, and piston seals, all to no avail. The piston barely moves inside the caliper.

Since there's only two things left to replace on the whole system (the caliper body and piston), anyone want to take an educated guess as to which one it is? I don't feel like buying one more unnecessary part for the bike. If it helps, I can take the dust boot off, and see what looks like air bubbles (but no fluid) coming out around the piston when I pump the brake handle, which is why I thought it might be the piston seal.

I've also tried bleeding the hell out of them, including strapping the handle down over night to let the bubble come up, tapping the system with a mallet, turning the handle bars back and forth, etc. No go.

So, please help a poor guy at the end of his rope. I'd like to ride at least one day this season, and the temperature is dropping fast!

Thanks!

Darrell

Offline kghost

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2007, 03:39:11 PM »
Three possible problems come to mind.

One.....

Its not uncommon to plug the bleed back hole in the master cylinder. There are two holes in the fluid resevoir. A big one and a small one. Both must be clear.

Two....

Its very very common for the master cylinder to develope pitting from corrosion.

When that happens the master cylinder piston bleeds back and almost no pressure is developed in the brake system.

Did you visually inspect the bore of the master cylinder before inserting new seals and such?

Three....

Pistons in the brake caliper itself are prone to corrosion. They are chromed and often the chrome developes pitting. Unfortunately it developes right where the seal sits first.

Often this makes it impossible for the piston to move back and forth without drawing air back into the system.

Stranger in a strange land

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2007, 04:35:59 PM »
In reply to points one and two: I literally replaced the master cylinder with a brand new after market one while trying to fix this problem, so it shouldn't be pitted or plugged.

As for three: The piston's look really good and don't look/feel pitted. There's a bit of surface rust around that grove where the dust boot sits in at the top of the piston, but I don't think that would make a difference.

So it's either the piston or the caliper. Anyone have experience enough to say which I should try replacing first? Can I even get replacement caliper bodies?

Offline kghost

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2007, 05:21:45 PM »
Did you take the piston out of the caliper?

I am assuming you did from your first post. EI replaced the piston seal.

Long as the outer body of the piston isn't pitted where it rides on the seal its not a huge problem.

What kind of diameter/stroke is the new master cylinder?

Is it possible the aftermarket cylinder doesn't move enough fluid?
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2007, 05:37:03 PM »
The piston looks good to me. I don't know how minor the pits can be and still affect it, but I can't see or feel anything around where the piston seal goes.

This is the after market MC I got off ebay, recommended by another SOHC4 member:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120153454041&rd=1

Thought the actual one I got looks completely different from the picture. It's a 14mm, which I was told would work fine with mine.

Offline kghost

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2007, 06:55:46 PM »
Why are ya sure its 14mm?

Just wondering if it could be smaller......
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2007, 07:02:56 PM »
The ebay auction said it was 14mm, but the MC looks a lot different from the pictures, so maybe it is the wrong size. Any way I can measure it?

Offline kghost

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2007, 07:07:09 PM »
not without disassembly.

if you can cross reference a part number with something you could....

Any stamps or markings on it?
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 10:13:33 AM »
I emailed to ask, and they said that although the design has changed, the master cylinder I got is a 14mm bore. So the master cylinder is brand new and correct, and I put new stainless steel lines on.

The only things left to replace are the pistons, calipers, and the splitting block by the horn. The pistons look and feel fine, so I don't think it's them. Can the caliper bodies and that splitting block even go bad?

Any other ideas? The pistons move out an 1/8 of an inch or so, then go right back in when I let off the handle.

Thanks!

Offline rbmgf7

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 11:14:07 AM »
i'm looking into replacing my front MC instead of rebuliding it. has anyone tried this one?

scroll half way down

also, where can i find a rebuild kit for the rear master cylinder? does the front rebuild work on the rear?

(sorry to hijack the thread)

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2007, 10:37:25 AM »
*Bump*

Anyone have any ideas? I'm totally stumped.

Can I get after-market calipers for my bike?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 11:01:01 AM »
Any other ideas? The pistons move out an 1/8 of an inch or so, then go right back in when I let off the handle.

This clue tells me you still have air in the brake system.  Hydraulic fluid will not rebound after pressure is released, but compressed air will.

You might try to imagine where air can collect inside the system.  Then reposition the brake components so that these places have a ready escape route for the air bubbles.  Also, be aware that high internal pressures make large bubbles into a lot of very tiny ones that take forever to move about inside.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 11:06:20 AM »
this shouldnt be that hard,this is a closed system.you have fluid in the master cylinder and the lines,they go into the calipers.i think you have air in the system somewhere.in case you didnt do this,this is what i would do.first,when you bleed the system,always bleed the caliper furthest from the m/c,then bleed the other.remember,air doesnt compress.if you need to,buy a vacuum bleeder,some folks call it a mity-vac,that will draw out any and all air in the system.good luck
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 11:15:03 AM »
remember, air doesnt compress.

OOPS!

And with that statement, thousands, even millions of air compressors in existence have suddenly become useless!

And all my tires are flat!  Damn you Duster! Take it back!

 ;D ;D ;D

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 11:24:50 AM »
i cant tt,air in a system such as brakes will not compress,thats why you need to pump the brakes to get them to come up when you have air in the system.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 04:30:10 PM »
Sorry Duster, you got your physics wrong.  I had assumed you made a typo, before.

It is air that IS compressible.  Fluids are not, for the most part.

When you pump a brake system entrained with air you are expending energy to compress the air and make the bubbles smaller, instead of applying it to the pad and rotor.

Hydraulic systems work because the fluid is not compressible.  Motion of fluid at the master is therefore transferred directly to the slave piston.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 05:23:49 PM »
Physics aside, a vacuum bleeder can  be had for pretty cheap at harbor freight and it made bleeding brakes a snap.  And it makes an even greater difference on the car where stepping on the brake and opening the bleeder is a bit of an impossiblity for just one person.

Dave
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fuzzybutt

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 05:57:17 PM »
that master cylinder from parts n more worked great on both the cb450 i sold last year and a honda 4trax i did a bunch of work on

Offline Bodi

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 06:31:34 PM »
Sounds like air, all right.
The way the master cylinder works, the piston is a cup shape which expands against the cylinder when you squeeze the lever to push the piston in. This seals tightly and pushes brake fluid out. The caliper pistons seal with square section O-rings, these will slide in the cylinder groove and even roll a bit before sliding against the piston: this action helps the piston and pad retract slightly when the brake is released so there's not much friction with the brake "off".
When the master cylinder piston is pulled back, the cup shaped seal will collapse slightly and let fluid go past fairly easily. This is what lets more fluid go from the reservoir into the brake system to compensate for pad wear or when bleeding the calipers. You need a bit of suction at the M/C outlet to make the cup collapse and suck fluid past, hopefully a bit more suction than the caliper piston needs to retract a bit. (this is why a gummed up caliper seal groove causes sticky brakes)
Any air bubbles in the brake lines or calipers gets compressed when you apply the brake. Brake fluid can not be compressed and any fluid drained through the bleeder will be replaced as the M/C piston cup seal retracts. Air bubbles compress and will expand as the M/C piston retracts: there will be no suction to collapse the cup seal and the piston just moves back without sucking more fluid from the reservoir. Using the bleeder will move fluid through the lines, but unless the bubbles are removed the problem will remain once you finish bleeding.
Removing air from a dual caliper system can be quite a job. A pressure bleeding system is best, pushing fluid up through the system works better because the bubbles will want to float upwards. You can imitate a pressure bleeder unit for free by using the caliper pistons: pump one out (not falling out, out 1/2 inch or so from fully in) and then press it back in, forcing the fluid - and air, hopefully - up the brake line. Make sure the caliper brake line fitting is the highest part of the caliper when you press the piston back in. With that caliper piston held all the way in (a C-clamp?) repeat with the other one. This should force all the air out as far as the tee, on crossover systems you start with the end caliper on the brake line. Now repeat with the last caliper, pumping the piston out VERY slowly so that any bubbles in the line float up rather than being pumped down the line. When you press it back in, the air should be moved closer to the M/C. Look for any high points in the line or places where air could be trapped at a high spot in your tee or switch block, try to manipulate these to help air flow up and out as you press the caliper piston in. You should see air bubbles from the bypass hole in the reservoir as you press the piston in, repeat until you don't see any bubbles then go away for an hour or three before doing it again once or twice, some more air might have floated up by then.
Keep the reservoir full enough that it doesn't go dry when pumping the pistons out, and watch out for geysers spraying from the bypass hole onto your paint job when pushing the pistons back in.
After I struggled with a squeaky dragging squishy feeling front brake for way too long to admit, a mechanic showed me this trick and it has really worked well for me.
A pressure bleeder unit does the same job quite nicely but it always makes a mess, the bleeders seep fluid around the threads when pressurized and you have to keep suctioning fluid from the reservoir with a turkey baster or something. Plus the dang hose loves to slip off the bleeder and spray fluid all over. This piston pushing way is pretty much mess free and doesn't waste brake fluid.
Vacuum bleeding is good for changing brake fuid in an air-free system but it doesn't clear out air as well as pressure bleeding in my opinion (and experience).

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 07:14:32 PM »

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 07:47:40 PM »
Aye-  That's the one I bought.

Dave
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 11:37:18 AM »
Sorry Duster, you got your physics wrong.  I had assumed you made a typo, before.

It is air that IS compressible.  Fluids are not, for the most part.

When you pump a brake system entrained with air you are expending energy to compress the air and make the bubbles smaller, instead of applying it to the pad and rotor.

Hydraulic systems work because the fluid is not compressible.  Motion of fluid at the master is therefore transferred directly to the slave piston.

Cheers,
shoot,you are right tt,took me a minute to figure it out,thanks for the education.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2007, 05:43:46 PM »
Physics aside, a vacuum bleeder can  be had for pretty cheap at harbor freight and it made bleeding brakes a snap.  And it makes an even greater difference on the car where stepping on the brake and opening the bleeder is a bit of an impossiblity for just one person.

Dave

So I hooked it up to the closed bleeder valve and was able to hold a 10 psi (or whatever the unit is) vacuum just fine with no drop. Then I opened the valve and bubbles/fluid kept pouring in. I thought the bubbles would eventually stop, but they kept coming, and it was quite a bit. I went through about two whole cups full of brake fluid (meaning two cups that caught the fluid before it got to the vacuum pump).

Any idea where those bubbles could have come from? I always kept the reservoir full with fluid, and saw/heard no leaks through the rest of the system. I double checked all the banjo bolts and they were quite tight.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Darrell

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2007, 05:45:44 PM »
Any idea where those bubbles could have come from?

The bleeder valve threads.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Darrell

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Re: '78 CB750F front brakes
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2007, 05:49:34 PM »