Author Topic: No Front Fender  (Read 14590 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jeff.Saunders

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 236
  • Obsessed by Old Motorcycles
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2007, 07:28:03 AM »
If you want to see how much flex and stress is taken by the front fender, replace the stock fender with an all fiberglass fender and see how quickly that suffers cracks in the finish...

Offline DME

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2007, 10:20:31 AM »
If you want to see how much flex and stress is taken by the front fender, replace the stock fender with an all fiberglass fender and see how quickly that suffers cracks in the finish...

I´ve ridden with my fiberglass fender for a year with out cracks in the finish. How quickly should the cracks appear?

Dan

Offline Jeff.Saunders

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 236
  • Obsessed by Old Motorcycles
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2007, 06:44:04 PM »
It probably depends how hard you ride - I lightened a bike considerably in the 1970's - put unbraced (100% fiberglass - no metal bridge under the 'glass) fiberglass fenders on the bike and after a few months of 'spirited' riding, the front fender had massive numbers of spider cracks and some getting way beyond surface cracks.  I wasn't too happy with the handling, but it was only when I switched back to a metal fender, I realized how bad the bike handled with the fiberglass fender.

Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2007, 04:57:30 AM »

As for the part about the forks only being held together by an 8 mm bolt (a larger boltsize will not contribute to lessen the forkflex), well that is what many newer bikes use also without anything else then a plastic front fender (by newer I mean eighties and mid ninethies bikes).


Nah mate, I never thought the size of the screw holding the damper rod to the slider made any difference to the handling, what I was trying to illustrate is that there is nothing securing the fork tube to the slider, allowing the slider to  rotate freely around the fork tube, if the two sliders aren't tied together by the fender, or a brace.


The fork flex comes from the upperlegs twisting and bending due to being underdimensioned (hello forkbrace or USD-forks...) or to much free play between upperleg and slider (hello new bushings....)


Well....... not entirely. Sure, 35mm tubes are pretty small by todays standards, and the longer a piece of pipe is, the more chance there is of flex, but the main culprit is as described above. As far as "bushings" go, Honda ditched them after the K2, and considering that the later bikes (particularly the F-F3 and K7-K8) were arguably better handlers, the point is only applicable to the 69-72 model year range.   




So, sure a brace will help stiffen up the CB750´s underdimensioned forklegs that has been worn through 30 odd years of use and abuse.


I'm having difficulty understanding how 30 years of use and abuse will decrease the OD of the fork tubes, when they are only coming into contact with rubber fork seals and well oiled soft alloy sliders or brass bushes? I must go measure some and report back..........



My point is though, that you can run a well set up CB750 sans forkbrace without fearing that it will throw you into the nearest ditch as soon as you starts to push it.

By well set up I mean:

- good forkbushings
- correct amount of oil in forklegs
- good steering head bearings
- good rear suspension
- straight wheels with correct spoke tension
- good swing arm bushings
- good wheel bearings


Well, seperate bushes were only used in CB750's from K0 to K2, so that point is not applicable for bikes from 1973 - 1978, and while all the other tips are good points and widely accepted as standard maintenance items, they're largely wasted if you're going to ignore common sense and run "sans fender" or brace.



Every bike should have these items gone through before they start having forkbraces and steering dampers thrown on them.

My guess is that many skip servicing these items and go straight to bracing both forks and frames.

Cheers
Daniel

As I mentioned above, most of us who have restored their 30+ year old bikes will have "sorted" our suspension as part of the build, so installing a brace or a steering damper (another very useful addition) isn't "throwing" something at a poorly maintained bike, but rather, building on what we've got, and improving our bikes as we go.

Now I've got no problem at all with guys who lean toward the "form over function" route, who prefer clubman handlebars, dummy tank extensions and unbraced fibreglass fenders etc to express their art. Sadly, because I was born without an imagination, I much prefer mechanical proficiency, to shiny things.

I really enjoy going to classic and post classic race meets, and while some of the race bikes that I see circulating at incredible speeds are not fitted with front fenders, they're all wearing some kind of fork brace. Like I said before, If you don't think you need one, then you've never ridden your bike to it's limits. Cheers, Terry. :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 05:00:01 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline bert96

  • past ride
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,384
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2007, 05:36:46 AM »
I just saw them on EBay Proty, does it fit a 750? I see it's advertised for a Harley sportster, and I wasn't sure if it'd fit our bikes, as I thought the distance between the legs on the sporty might have been further apart?

If they will fit our bikes, the seller still has 8 left at only 44.95, which is a real bargain! Cheers, Terry. :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHROME-35MM-FRONT-END-FORK-BRACE-4-HARLEY-FX-XL-73-87_W0QQitemZ130154484182QQihZ003QQcategoryZ35569QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

I've just bought the brace,i will tell you guys if it fit.
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline DME

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 663
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2007, 06:04:32 AM »

Well....... not entirely. Sure, 35mm tubes are pretty small by todays standards, and the longer a piece of pipe is, the more chance there is of flex, but the main culprit is as described above. As far as "bushings" go, Honda ditched them after the K2, and considering that the later bikes (particularly the F-F3 and K7-K8) were arguably better handlers, the point is only applicable to the 69-72 model year range.   

Well, seperate bushes were only used in CB750's from K0 to K2, so that point is not applicable for bikes from 1973 - 1978, and while all the other tips are good points and widely accepted as standard maintenance items, they're largely wasted if you're going to ignore common sense and run "sans fender" or brace.


The K3-K5 was never sold in Europe. We had the K2 until 1976 when the K6 was unleashed.





As I mentioned above, most of us who have restored their 30+ year old bikes will have "sorted" our suspension as part of the build, so installing a brace or a steering damper (another very useful addition) isn't "throwing" something at a poorly maintained bike, but rather, building on what we've got, and improving our bikes as we go.

Now I've got no problem at all with guys who lean toward the "form over function" route, who prefer clubman handlebars, dummy tank extensions and unbraced fibreglass fenders etc to express their art. Sadly, because I was born without an imagination, I much prefer mechanical proficiency, to shiny things.

I really enjoy going to classic and post classic race meets, and while some of the race bikes that I see circulating at incredible speeds are not fitted with front fenders, they're all wearing some kind of fork brace. Like I said before, If you don't think you need one, then you've never ridden your bike to it's limits. Cheers, Terry. :)


I agree with you both on the account that a brace will stiffen up the front end.
The stock front fender is doing a great job, ESPECIALLY if you run the fender with the stock fender stays.



I like mechanical proficiency as well as "shiny things". It does not have to be one or the other.

And as I have written earlier, a brace or the stock fender is a good thing, no doubt about it.

But my main point is that a well set up chassis without a fender is not the death trap that it its sometimes described as, that will wobble like crazy at any speed and throw you off at the nearest corner.

Friends?

Cheers
Dan


Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2007, 02:10:46 PM »

Friends?


Yeah mate, you live in Europe and I live in Oz, so geez, we can disagree without a gunfight!

And anyway, I'll never say anything here that I wouldn't say to a blokes face, you should have heard some of the alcohol fuelled technical debates that the "Three Broke Tramps" (me, my mates Davey and Peter) used to have "back in the day", ha ha! Cheers, Terry. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline seaweb11

  • 1st Mate &
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,258
  • Ride & Smile
    • Playground Directory
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2007, 02:20:36 PM »
I just boaught a couple of those Ebay braces shown earlier in this thread, I will let you know if they fit. ;D

Offline mick750F

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,395
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2007, 06:07:25 PM »
 I'll add this to the debate. I installed a fork brace a couple of years ago after replacing the fork tubes with new, after installing Progressive springs, after replacing the wheel bearings, after replacing the fork seals, after adding an air system to the tubes, after replacing the swingarm bushings with bronze and after new Progressive rear shocks. After all these improvements, but before the fork brace, the bike handled much better than it had in the previous years I'd ridden it. Adding a fork brace after all of the improvements and with the stock fender on the bike made quite a difference in the handling. It was noticeable to me before I even started to push the bike through corners.

   For me the ride is all about handling and I've done what I can to improve it while trying to stay true to the era. Doing anything to detract from the handling of the bike just doesn't make sense to me...but that's just me.  ;) Being an artist I fully understand people wanting a specific look to their bike but to me, being cursed with a pragmatic streak which causes me to look at the technical side first, form follows function rather than function following form.

Mike
'
Glosta, MA
It's not the heat...it's the humanity.

Heironymous Josh

  • Guest
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2007, 01:40:00 AM »
Road Test update:

After completing the aforementioned "twist test," with less than favorable results (sans fender), I started to pay closer attention to the handling characteristics of the bike w/out the fender.  I noticed in head on elevation changes, i.e. potholes, driving surface transitions and bridge seams, a "jolt" in the bikes steering.  Not the linear jolt to be expected with such changes in elevation but a quick lateral twitch in the front end, a stutter if you will.  This was alarming enough that I threw on my ratty front fender for a "controlled" counter test.  With the fender on, sudden head on changes in elevation were predictable - the front end tracked with the momentum of the bike without (or at least with far less) hesitation.  It wasn't until I threw the nose of the bike into twisties that I noticed the irrefutable "night and day difference."  Being accustomed to the bike sans front fender, I wasn't conscience of how susceptible it was to the slightest change in gradient, bank, surface texture or elevation.  I was used to how sloppy it was.  With the fender, I experienced a heightened sense of confidence in the bike's capabilities.  If I pointed it in a direction, it went there.  I didn't realize how often I was depending on braking to hold a line through turns until I clamored through corners with the fender on.  In case this FACT was ever the focus of debate, OUR FRONT HEAVY BIKES HANDLE FATHOMS BETTER WITH A BRACING DEVICE ON THE TUBE SLIDERS THAN THEY DO WITHOUT.  From here, gentlemen, feel free to debate "form vs. function" and general vs. excessive wear and tear but the realistic, perceivable advantages of keeping your fender on are incontestable.

Josh

Fenders (or braces) for life.

I'm still gonna bob that s***, though.  Who can't have form and function.

Heironymous Josh

  • Guest
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2007, 02:18:03 AM »
Fenders for life is not a good slogan.

Que?

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2007, 07:50:55 PM »
Just to throw a curve in the mix, I'm absolutely convinced cast wheels give the CB750 an incredible improvement in hi-speed handling over spokes.

Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2007, 12:58:37 AM »
Hmmnnn, not common here because most of our bikes had spoke wheels, but the "cast versus spoked" wheel debate is a common one on my other favorite site, "The GS Resources". 1970's cast wheels are heavy, but seriously rigid and do have beneficial handling properties, at the expense of additional unsprung weight.

Honda developed the "Comstar" wheel specifically to provide the benefit of a more rigid wheel with the weight of a spoked wheel. (not to mention allowing the fitment of superior tubeless radial tires) That's partly why the CB750F2/F3 is such a sweet handler, compared to it's wire spoked siblings. Maybe this should be a separate post though, so we can start again, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Heironymous Josh

  • Guest
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2007, 03:31:08 PM »
Hmmnnn, not common here because most of our bikes had spoke wheels, but the "cast versus spoked" wheel debate is a common one on my other favorite site, "The GS Resources". 1970's cast wheels are heavy, but seriously rigid and do have beneficial handling properties, at the expense of additional unsprung weight.

Honda developed the "Comstar" wheel specifically to provide the benefit of a more rigid wheel with the weight of a spoked wheel. (not to mention allowing the fitment of superior tubeless radial tires) That's partly why the CB750F2/F3 is such a sweet handler, compared to it's wire spoked siblings. Maybe this should be a separate post though, so we can start again, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. :)


Always a wealth, Terry.  I'm debating whether to keep my comstars (well, I'm going to hold on to them no matter what) or swap out for spokes.  I think spokes have a cleaner, classic look but the comstars are rigid and worry free.  What to do...

Offline mlinder

  • "Kitten Puncher"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,013
  • Stop Global Tilting now!
    • Moto Northwest
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2007, 03:37:02 PM »
A history of bike racing:

Racers complained about tire grip.

New tires were made, much grippier, which showed the racers just how flimsy the frames were...

Racers complained about frame flex.

Frames were made more stiff, which showed the racers just how flimsy the the suspension and wire wheels were...

Racers complained about the suspension and wheels.

Mag wheels and upgraded suspension were developed, which showed the racers just how crappy their tires were....


Rinse and repeat.

No.


Heironymous Josh

  • Guest
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2007, 07:04:42 AM »
I think spokes have a cleaner, classic look but the comstars are rigid and worry free.  What to do...

Build an 80's bike running 'stars. Have a classic vintage cafe or stocker with spokes.



Problem solved!

Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2007, 02:13:33 PM »
Hmmnnn, not common here because most of our bikes had spoke wheels, but the "cast versus spoked" wheel debate is a common one on my other favorite site, "The GS Resources". 1970's cast wheels are heavy, but seriously rigid and do have beneficial handling properties, at the expense of additional unsprung weight.

Honda developed the "Comstar" wheel specifically to provide the benefit of a more rigid wheel with the weight of a spoked wheel. (not to mention allowing the fitment of superior tubeless radial tires) That's partly why the CB750F2/F3 is such a sweet handler, compared to it's wire spoked siblings. Maybe this should be a separate post though, so we can start again, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. :)



Always a wealth, Terry.  I'm debating whether to keep my comstars (well, I'm going to hold on to them no matter what) or swap out for spokes.  I think spokes have a cleaner, classic look but the comstars are rigid and worry free.  What to do...

There's no reason why you can't use Comstars on a classic 1970's Cafe Racer mate, don't forget that Comstars were developed by Honda for genuine race bikes before they were fitted to the mighty F2/3, so they've earned their place in history, and they're a "period" item as they were introduced on our bikes in 1977.

By the 1980's the Comstar had further evolved, until it was eventually replaced by better casting methods allowing lighter, more rigid wheels. Apart from the Honda race bikes that wore comstars in the 1970's, Honda Britain built a very nice CB750F2 "Special" with different tank and set, and nice fairing to boot, which further enhanced the look of those wheels. Cheers, Terry. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline jevfro

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 318
  • 1975 CB750 K5
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2007, 02:33:58 PM »
I just saw them on EBay Proty, does it fit a 750? I see it's advertised for a Harley sportster, and I wasn't sure if it'd fit our bikes, as I thought the distance between the legs on the sporty might have been further apart?

If they will fit our bikes, the seller still has 8 left at only 44.95, which is a real bargain! Cheers, Terry. :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHROME-35MM-FRONT-END-FORK-BRACE-4-HARLEY-FX-XL-73-87_W0QQitemZ130154484182QQihZ003QQcategoryZ35569QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 
Update: I had no patience to wait and see if these fit so I went ahead and ordered one.  It showed up last night... Didn't fit :(  Fork lowers are to large in diameter, and too far apart.  Now I will mod them to work! (much more fun this way anyhow!)  bore out the clamps and fab a wider bracket out of 3/8" aluminum plate.  Will post pics when I get it on there (sometime this winter, hopefully ;) )

Offline seaweb11

  • 1st Mate &
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,258
  • Ride & Smile
    • Playground Directory
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2007, 07:31:58 PM »
FU^%(*&#%^K  Really....I ordered 2?  Keep us updated, mine have not arrived yet.

Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2007, 08:26:40 PM »
I doubt that you'll be able to bore them out very much mate, I've got a couple like that here and there's not much "meat" before you hit the screws that hold them together, but "best of luck" anyway. You'll also need to fab a "bridge" to get over the wheel and fender, if you've got an early (K0-K6) bike. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline bert96

  • past ride
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,384
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2007, 06:03:07 AM »
I just saw them on EBay Proty, does it fit a 750? I see it's advertised for a Harley sportster, and I wasn't sure if it'd fit our bikes, as I thought the distance between the legs on the sporty might have been further apart?

If they will fit our bikes, the seller still has 8 left at only 44.95, which is a real bargain! Cheers, Terry. :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHROME-35MM-FRONT-END-FORK-BRACE-4-HARLEY-FX-XL-73-87_W0QQitemZ130154484182QQihZ003QQcategoryZ35569QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 
Update: I had no patience to wait and see if these fit so I went ahead and ordered one.  It showed up last night... Didn't fit :(  Fork lowers are to large in diameter, and too far apart.  Now I will mod them to work! (much more fun this way anyhow!)  bore out the clamps and fab a wider bracket out of 3/8" aluminum plate.  Will post pics when I get it on there (sometime this winter, hopefully ;) )

I have one in the mail too!!! to bad this brace don't fit >:( i hope someone will come up with a good idea to make it work :-\
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline jevfro

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 318
  • 1975 CB750 K5
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2007, 07:39:05 AM »
Mine appear to only need a mm or two to fit the forks. It appears there is enough "meat" not much, but enough....  My forks are off a F and go above the tire.  I still may need to build a "bridge" of some kind if I want to go over my fender.  Thanks for the words of caution Terry


Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,288
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2007, 03:54:05 PM »
No worries mate, happy to help. For the other guys who've ordered one for the K seres CB750's, the fork spacing is the same between the K and F forks, (both F/F1 and F2/F3) but I can't remember off the top of my head if the sliders are the same OD. (I think not, but I'll measure them tonight after work and let you know) Either way, you'll need some "bridgework" to make 'em fit.

If someone wants to send me one, I'll try to modify it to fit a K or an F. Cheers, Terry. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline seaweb11

  • 1st Mate &
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,258
  • Ride & Smile
    • Playground Directory
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2007, 07:05:13 PM »
 ;D

Offline bert96

  • past ride
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,384
Re: No Front Fender
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2007, 01:11:43 PM »
I had this brace up for sale on EvilBay a few days ago --->

I bought it for my CB750 and never used it (brand new - still in the original packaging).
 If someone wants it email me your offer...

I bought the same brace and i know some of you did too,is there one of you who made this fit???
i just hope i did not bought that for nothing :(
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?