Author Topic: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?  (Read 5105 times)

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Offline mlinder

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Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« on: September 18, 2007, 01:47:17 PM »
So, Hondaman was saying how velocity stacks really smooth out intake flow, and cut down on turbulence at certain velocities. which of course, helps smoothness and performance.
He was also saying how bad velocity stacks are for your rings, as you tend to pull in a fair amount of dirt.

He also mentioned that K&N used to make filters that would attach to some form or other of velocity stacks.

Haven't seen em around.

So, got me thinking, why not design my own and have 'em machined?

So here's what I'm thinking:







The flange at the carb throat side is expanded to allow a nice rubber sheathing, keeping a smooth airflow from stack to throat. The edges are cutaways to
allow hose clamp or the like to secure the velocipod(c)(tm) to the carb.
Note the single crossbar inside the velocity stack to keep the foam from being sucked in.

A nice, elegant 'screen' that secures with 2 tiny nuts and bolts to keep the foam in.

Best of both worlds?

Maybe.

What do you think? Would you buy these?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:49:21 PM by mlinder »
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Offline DarkRider

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 02:37:26 PM »
So they are essentially Velocity stacks with filters in them?...I would like to see how this turns out..
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2007, 02:39:48 PM »
So they are essentially Velocity stacks with filters in them?...I would like to see how this turns out..

Not even essentially. Just plain are, with a couple of small mods to make sure the foam doesn't go anywhere. Also, a bit different on the carb side than most velocity stacks, but for a good reason.
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Offline Dougy Dougy Dune Buggy

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 03:35:24 PM »
Nice Drawing MLinder,
you using Solid-Works??
I've yet to fully PLAY with mine yet, nice looking design
are you going to make a plastic model?
Keep us posted, i'm sure there is MUCH interest in this thread
Thanks,
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ONE DAY
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 03:53:14 PM »
Rhino3d 2.0

Well, dunno, may as well have em machined outta aluminum if I'm going to have anything made at all.
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Offline sparty

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 04:58:39 PM »
I was reading about my K&N pods, it says that they have a built in velocity stack, however, it doesn't look quite like what you would imagine.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 05:50:27 PM »
Looks hot, be very interested to see how they work out. There must be am optimum length which will take some tinkering to figure out.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 05:56:38 PM »
Looks hot, be very interested to see how they work out. There must be am optimum length which will take some tinkering to figure out.

Correct, though from what I gather, optimum length depends on what kind of RPM you plan to make most of your power in.
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Offline 333

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 08:55:49 PM »
A great idea, but a small problem.  The foam you picture is too thick.  It will put too much restriction on the airflow.  So maybe use a single layer of the same media K&N uses, dome shaped over the end.  Or maybe a flat wavey piece.  Wavey would give a larger filter surface promoting faster flow and better filtering at the same time.

Then patent the idea, and sell it to K&N.  Let them build it.
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 10:13:43 PM »
I like the work.  You have obviously put some time and thought in to this. “Cool program you are working with”.

I'm not an engineer, or even 1/2 as clever as lots of people here, but I would think the "smoothness" as you called it as a preferable intake for air would be completely dissipated by the thick foam filter.  The air would now not "flow" over the bowl cleanly. 

On the other hand, many people have talked about their difficulties in getting their bikes working with pods..."I love mine" ;D  This design of yours may be an easier alternative to EMGO's or others as the air would be much less a severe increase as free flowing.

Again, just my thoughts at 10:00 after a couple of beers ;D

Keep it comng :)

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2007, 10:27:46 PM »
So, Hondaman was saying how velocity stacks really smooth out intake flow, and cut down on turbulence at certain velocities. which of course, helps smoothness and performance.
He was also saying how bad velocity stacks are for your rings, as you tend to pull in a fair amount of dirt.

He also mentioned that K&N used to make filters that would attach to some form or other of velocity stacks.

Haven't seen em around.

So, got me thinking, why not design my own and have 'em machined?

So here's what I'm thinking:







The flange at the carb throat side is expanded to allow a nice rubber sheathing, keeping a smooth airflow from stack to throat. The edges are cutaways to
allow hose clamp or the like to secure the velocipod(c)(tm) to the carb.
Note the single crossbar inside the velocity stack to keep the foam from being sucked in.

A nice, elegant 'screen' that secures with 2 tiny nuts and bolts to keep the foam in.

Best of both worlds?

Maybe.

What do you think? Would you buy these?
You build it........they will come!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 10:35:56 PM »
Better yet....ya know how Supertrapp exhausts have the extra disks on the end of the muffler............How about velocity stack filters of different thicknesses to control the amount of air intake while still providing air filtration? I don't like the idea of a daily driver running wide open air intake....save that sh!t for the drag strip.
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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 06:44:18 AM »
this looks interesting. If I may throw a couple ideas out. Instead of a filter dome, make it go inside the stack which may help pull in more air. The little cage piece that goes over the foam, use it to help hold the foam in place. Then my final idea would be to have a tube about mid-way on the stacks that links the stacks. This would ,at least in my idea, help provide smooth and consistent airflow between all the carbs.  Kinda like and h-pipe exhaust system.

Offline DarkRider

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 08:35:59 AM »
What about having two of the crosshair pieces or even just a piece of mesh on the outside sandwiching a section of the same media as the K&Ns? so apperance wise it appears to be a wide open stack you look down the bore you see the protective mesh.
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so, you say just tie myself on with this... and steer w/ this?   ;D ;D  ok.  where's my goggles?   8)

Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 10:11:03 AM »
With your thoughts, I've revised the design.



Though more complicated, I think it addresses the pertinent issues, flow and turbulence.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 10:57:21 AM »
Okay, here is an engineering theory perspective.  (There, that should stop 80% of the readers so they can continue to the next post.)

Velocity stacks provide at least two benefits.

1 -  They keep the airflow laminar and reduce turbulence eddies than can alter the pressure at the fuel exit points in the carb throat.

2 - The ramming effect at high air speeds, provides a bit of compression on the air mass (large cross section narrowing to small cross section), which makes more oxygen available during combustion.  A slight supercharging effect.

Air filters of any type, introduce turbulence as the air passes through it.  Placing it at the entrance of the V stack largely negates benefit number one.
Filter media at the bell mouth actually reduces the cross sectional area of the bell, thereby negating benefit number two.

Passing large amounts of air through a small restriction increases the pressure differential on either side of the restriction.  With the pressure differential, comes resistance in the form of drag on the air mass.  To reduce the drag effect from the air filter, the media should be as large as possible and many times the cross sectional area of the carb throat.  The tiny holes in the filter media don't flow as well as a large one, because of circumferential boundary layer drag effects.  However, providing millions of small holes, allows each to flow at very slow rate.  This is rather the equivalent of have one person lift 300 lbs. or 100 persons lifting 3 lbs. each.

At the risk of sounding like a stock purist, which I am not.  I will point out some features often over looked on the SOHC4.  Using the CB550 for example, you will find a large chamber where air enters and is met with a large surface area filter.  This area is far larger than the venturi cross sectional area of the carbs.  After filtration, the air moves to a plenum chamber with exits to the 4 carbs,  Each, plenum to carb coupler is formed out of rubber in the shape of...
a short velocity stack.  This stack is really too short to provide much compression effect of number two benefit above.  But, it does provide some laminar flow benefits of number one.

You may not like the stock arrangement looks.  But, you can't deny that Honda got the engineering right, a large filter before the carb entrance and flow straighteners at the carb entrance.

Honda was trying to offer best performance with engine longevity.  This is a trade off proposition.  Racers trade off longevity with power gains for the short haul.  Because they go fast, racer bikes have the eye allure.  If you have a racers budget to replace engines or engine components, use velocity stacks.

One last point about the filter-at-the-vstack bell.  As filters block dirt, they become more restrictive.  A small area filter will need more frequent maintenance than a large area filter flowing the the same volume of air, because blocking the particles further restrict air flow.  This will, of course, depend on an equivalent air particulate density provided to each filter type, large area or small.

Having said all that.  I will support what Fred Said.
Quote
You build it........they will come!!!!!!!!!!
Since there are so few real engineers in the bike building arena, the cool factor is what will sell.  Just don't provide any test data.  Show them a cool bike with your shiny stacks gleaming in prominence. (Polished aluminum on an all flat black cafe bike, for example.)  With proper photography, you'll sell a bunch of them.

Cheers,

P.S. I wish I had your solid modeling skills! :o
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 11:05:23 AM »
Good info, and yes, most of them were in the back of my mind already.
I had another, more practical idea (actually, a couple), but they aren't as 'cool looking'.

Think I'll CAD em up anyway, see what I see.
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2007, 11:47:36 AM »
Didn't Honda sort of already provide the best of both worlds with the CB750's airbox design? You have a very large area filter in the lower case, with rubber velocity stacks on the carbs in the upper case...
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2007, 11:55:13 AM »
Didn't Honda sort of already provide the best of both worlds with the CB750's airbox design? You have a very large area filter in the lower case, with rubber velocity stacks on the carbs in the upper case...

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the virtues of the stock airbox. I'm just looking to improve it a bit.
Next design going up is based on the stock airbox, but with improvements.

So maybe the honda stock box is "really good of both worlds", but I think we can do a little better...
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Offline DarkRider

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 12:26:05 PM »
Now...heres me just throwing a random idea in here...mostly from after looking at the 83 Interceptor my roomate just picked up (Yes this is now a 3 Interceptor home lol two are mine and the 83 is my roomates) i seen how the carbs are laid out in it since the airbox is off at the moment...now couldnt someone modify the air box on the CBs to allow the use of Vstacks on the carbs but place the filters at the intakes of the box? So now you wind up with a pressureized airbox with filters at the intakes of the box plus gain the benifits of the Vstacks feeding them clean air in the process.
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Quote from: heffay
so, you say just tie myself on with this... and steer w/ this?   ;D ;D  ok.  where's my goggles?   8)

Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2007, 12:45:39 PM »
Now...heres me just throwing a random idea in here...mostly from after looking at the 83 Interceptor my roomate just picked up (Yes this is now a 3 Interceptor home lol two are mine and the 83 is my roomates) i seen how the carbs are laid out in it since the airbox is off at the moment...now couldnt someone modify the air box on the CBs to allow the use of Vstacks on the carbs but place the filters at the intakes of the box? So now you wind up with a pressureized airbox with filters at the intakes of the box plus gain the benifits of the Vstacks feeding them clean air in the process.

Thats what I am currently working on, but with a ram air system as well.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 12:51:50 PM by mlinder »
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 12:50:03 PM »
damn,this is cool
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 01:09:09 PM »
I've wished somebody would make more of these "breadbox" type filters.  You get the advantages of a large filter and still get rid of the stock airbox for the racy look.  There were some better looking versions than in this picture, but the same basic idea.

This looks like where you're headed.  You could probably design it to use one of those flat cartridge type filters (or K&N equivalent) from a modern motorcycle.

Cool designs.  You can really whip those out quick.  I like the idea of pressurizing the box somehow. 


Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 01:20:32 PM »
Well, I figure if you are going to have an equalizing airbox, you may as well find a way to pressurize it...
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eldar

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 01:44:41 PM »
If you connect the stacks with hollow tubes, that will equalize it as well. As for pressurising it I am not sure that you can make enough pressure in the small space without a turbo on it. At least not without other modifications to the layout of the bike. You could swap in a smaller oil tank and relocate it thus freeing more space. Another concern is air temp. You want cool air,not air off the engine. Otherwise you will not gain much  since warm air is not as dense. Now maybe you could extend the stacks into the open space and have them terminate into an airbox that could maybe be hidden  by the sidecovers?

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 01:55:36 PM »
If you connect the stacks with hollow tubes, that will equalize it as well. As for pressurising it I am not sure that you can make enough pressure in the small space without a turbo on it. At least not without other modifications to the layout of the bike. You could swap in a smaller oil tank and relocate it thus freeing more space. Another concern is air temp. You want cool air,not air off the engine. Otherwise you will not gain much  since warm air is not as dense. Now maybe you could extend the stacks into the open space and have them terminate into an airbox that could maybe be hidden  by the sidecovers?

Connecting velocity stacks will interrupt smooth airflow, and stacks 2 and 3 would have 2 inlet connectors while 1 and 4 would have only 1 each.

You'd be surprised at how much air you can shove in somewhere at 100 mph :) and it's guaranteed to be more charged than the vacuum created by a stock airbox, or pods, or naked velocity stacks.

I like the idea of moving the charging system to occupy the spaces where the sidecovers are at though. Move battery, electronics, and oil tank to other locations... you could get some pretty large intakes to fit there. Only trouble is the rather quick change in direction of air... however, this could be a good way to help keep condensation from the air entering the airbox. No need to extend the stacks, just route the charging system to enter the airbox from the rear, and keep the airbox up underneath the tank (in stock position, basically).
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2007, 02:30:47 PM »
Ram air has been discussed in the forum before.  The problem is, you can't just pressurize the carb throats, as that would actually blow air backwards through the fuel jets or at least impede the fuel flow when ram air pressure is attained.  You would have to pressurize the entire carb or at least the vents that go to each carb, too.  Then the fuel tank would need ram air pressure as well, in order to keep the gravity feed fuel flow in proper proportion flowing into the carbs.

FYI

Cheers,
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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2007, 02:55:17 PM »
Right, I was trying to figure out how to get around the fact that unless I also pressurised the overflow, I'd have some issues. But presurising the overflow has it's own caveats, such as, if a float bowl sticks, and the fuel has nowhere to go, it'll just pool in the cylinder. Which isn't good.
I'm sure I could pressurise the tank and carbs, but getting a good even balance could prove to be very difficult.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2007, 03:52:43 PM »
Or could just cheese out and do something like:



No equalisation, but good flow and filtration. Ugly as sin though.
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fuzzybutt

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2007, 06:19:34 PM »
i had a datsun 240z years ago in florida, had the triple webers on it and around the carb mounted stacks were rubber rings that pod filters would clamp on to.

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2007, 07:04:41 PM »
If velocity stacks are to be used. The single best way I can see is to have them extend into the stock airbox. It is a tradeoff over max power but should provide an increase in power as long as the stacks fit smoothly with the carbs. The airbox will provide good filtration and even airflow to all carbs. Enlarging the inlet to the airbox with an airscoop of sorts can add a small bit of pressurization. This and some tuning of carbs and possibly rejetting can give a noticeable improvement in performance. I'm not an engineer but I believe this can work and if someone can provide the pieces to try it I would.

eldar

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2007, 06:56:58 AM »
Well if the tubes are used further back then the flow should smooth out. What I wonder is this. Supposedly the air flow needs to be smooth going into the carbs yet is supposed to swirl to allow complete mixing of the air/fuel. It strikes me that this is impossible to accomplish given the small space we have to work with. I also wonder if smooth airflow is that important or if it is more important to have adequate air flow available.

Others here have gotten stacks to work fine and in some case have only put on minor baffling to cut out the initial turbulence from the stack openings.  It seems that the biggest issue stack users run into is trying to equalize flow between the carbs, which probably affects tuning more than all but the worst turbulence. this equalization would be solved by either using a main box such as the stock boxor by using tubes placed at some point between the stacks. So what you really have to figure out is if you want form or function.  If it is form, then use tubes as they will be pretty hard to see, if you want function, use an airbox but then at that rate you may as well just modify the stock box somehow.

You seem to want both so you will have to make concessions. Which I think would be to use a single filter unit that fits over the openings and then about 1 - 2 inches use equalizing tubes because I doubt they will mess up air flow any more than if you did not use them. This is not a super high flow system so I doubt super smooth air is that critical. It is a 70s carb set up which is less than perfect as you already have to deal with 4 separate carbs, each with its own quirks. So ultimately you should rule out anything when experimenting.  I actually feel like experimenting with something like this too. To bad for me is that riding season is almost done so what is left will be spent riding!

What ever you try, good luck on it.

Offline HITMAN

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2007, 12:32:40 PM »
If you could make it, I might buy it with one exception...   Brass screens!!!

I have been contemplating a purchase from this company http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/ but it's borderline cost prohibitive.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2007, 02:31:07 PM »
Final design.
Quite simple, and undoubtedly the best.

Gonna make one. This is simplified, there will need to be stops and such to hold things where they are supposed to be.

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2007, 04:15:39 PM »
Very nice looking design man..Me thinks im gonna be paying attention to this project of yours...I can already think of one bike i would like to use something like this on...Are you making them for specific applications or are you considering being able to make them to suit different applications if you were to sell them?
'84 Chevy C10
'73 MGB Roadster
'69 Ford F250

Currently a rider without a bike

Quote from: heffay
so, you say just tie myself on with this... and steer w/ this?   ;D ;D  ok.  where's my goggles?   8)

Offline mlinder

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2007, 04:30:05 PM »
Very nice looking design man..Me thinks im gonna be paying attention to this project of yours...I can already think of one bike i would like to use something like this on...Are you making them for specific applications or are you considering being able to make them to suit different applications if you were to sell them?

Since the distance between stacks would be different from bike to bike, at the very least, each front plate would have to be different from model to model.
The rest could, conceivably, be the same.
We'll see how it works on my 750 first :)
No.


Offline DarkRider

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Re: Hondaman gave me an idea... Velocipods(c)(tm)?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2007, 10:51:38 AM »
as said.. i will be keepin tabs on this..
'84 Chevy C10
'73 MGB Roadster
'69 Ford F250

Currently a rider without a bike

Quote from: heffay
so, you say just tie myself on with this... and steer w/ this?   ;D ;D  ok.  where's my goggles?   8)