Author Topic: problems after recent valve adjustment  (Read 3564 times)

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blantonator

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problems after recent valve adjustment
« on: September 24, 2007, 05:58:16 PM »
She ran pretty good for 20 miles are so, but now its all falling apart.  So here are the symptoms:

-Spitting at top end RPMS.  Dies pretty hard at 8K+
-No low end grunt, spits a little bit too
-Overall weak acceleration

I had noticed that i filled the oil a little high, maybe 1/4 - 1/2 quart... but I fixed that, and there is no change.

I double checked one of the cylinders and the valves looked good (.05 exhaust, .1 intake)

What do you think the problem is?

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2007, 11:17:04 PM »
She ran pretty good for 20 miles are so, but now its all falling apart.  So here are the symptoms:

-Spitting at top end RPMS.  Dies pretty hard at 8K+
-No low end grunt, spits a little bit too
-Overall weak acceleration

I had noticed that i filled the oil a little high, maybe 1/4 - 1/2 quart... but I fixed that, and there is no change.

I double checked one of the cylinders and the valves looked good (.05 exhaust, .1 intake)

What do you think the problem is?


did you adjust the timing afterwards? and check point gap?
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 05:01:51 AM »
Is the timing adjustable on the 350?  What do i adjust my points to? and why would they have changed?  When adjusting the valves i did take the points unit out, but there really only appears to be one way to put it  back in
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 05:34:58 AM by blantonator »

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2007, 09:10:19 AM »
Is the timing adjustable on the 350?  What do i adjust my points to? and why would they have changed?  When adjusting the valves i did take the points unit out, but there really only appears to be one way to put it  back in

The timing is definitely adjustable and needs to be set after you change the valve lash. Also, if you took the points unit out you most certainly changed it's position which would affect the timing. You adjust the valves, check the point gap (I use a feeler gauge of .35mm) and then set the timing. In that order.  If you don't have a timing light just make one as described in the clymer manual. I've been using a light bulb with soldered wiring for a while to do static timing. It's as cheap as it gets :)

Did you end up downloading that manual I posted a link to?
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2007, 09:24:53 AM »
yep i did, though i don't have access to it at work.  I did read through it and didn't see the section on timing... maybe i missed it, do you know the page number?  It definetly feels like a timing issue.

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2007, 09:29:04 AM »
yep i did, though i don't have access to it at work.  I did read through it and didn't see the section on timing... maybe i missed it, do you know the page number?  It definetly feels like a timing issue.


It should be listed in the index of the manual.
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2007, 09:40:02 AM »
yea i see it, was looking in the wrong section.  thanks!

blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2007, 09:52:43 AM »
Well it seems simple enough with the  clymer light, but i have a question if doing it with a timing light.  They want you to run the engine, but with the generator rotor cover off, it would loose oil?  Isn't this bad?

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 01:07:07 PM »
Well it seems simple enough with the  clymer light, but i have a question if doing it with a timing light.  They want you to run the engine, but with the generator rotor cover off, it would loose oil?  Isn't this bad?


I would just follow the manual's suggestion. If it says to do a) I would do a).
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Offline mlinder

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 01:09:59 PM »
Aren't your points and such on the OTHER side of the engine from the generator...?

Sorry, I don't have a twin, but on the sohc's, generator is on one side, points are on the other...
No.


blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 01:11:33 PM »
Aren't your points and such on the OTHER side of the engine from the generator...?

Sorry, I don't have a twin, but on the sohc's, generator is on one side, points are on the other...

the points are located on the left side connected to the cam, the generator is right below.

Offline c91x

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 01:41:08 PM »
what alot of guys do is have a spare cover and cut the top corner off so you can see the marks but keep the oil in it

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 02:13:06 PM »
Did you adjust the valves with the engine dead cold?  That's something some people miss.
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 05:10:20 PM »
Did you adjust the valves with the engine dead cold?  That's something some people miss.

I did do the valves on a cold engine and i adjusted the timing tonight.  It was a few degrees early.  I followed the instructions for the timing tonight.  She fired right up, but didnt sound good. Revving produced a little black smoke.  Took it for a spin and it was worse than before,  had little power and made weird valve noises.  I may give it one more shot (do it all over again) and the same results, off the the dealer  :( :(

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 09:26:17 PM »
Did you adjust the valves with the engine dead cold?  That's something some people miss.

I did do the valves on a cold engine and i adjusted the timing tonight.  It was a few degrees early.  I followed the instructions for the timing tonight.  She fired right up, but didnt sound good. Revving produced a little black smoke.  Took it for a spin and it was worse than before,  had little power and made weird valve noises.  I may give it one more shot (do it all over again) and the same results, off the the dealer  :( :(


Dealer!

No sir!

Did we establish how fresh these points are?
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 11:49:40 PM »
I've done a ground-up CB350 restoration. Found that the advance unit -behind the points- was stuck. Fortunately, I found it at rebuilding stage, because I didn't install anything that I haven't checked before. Check that yours works fine. Unfortunately you will have to remove the points plate again, but if you use a marker to signal the retaining screw position, you will be well off just by reinstalling it at the same position without having to adjust everything again.

Problem with points timing on the CB350 is that is a trial-and-error method, a sucessive approximation method. You adjust left point gap, left point firing, and when you move the plate to adjust the right point the left one has changed. The firing point hasn't changed, but the amount of time the point remains closed has changed. So you have to redoit again in order to make both points remain closed more or less for the same time, with the certainty that in a few miles, the points wear will ruin all the adjustment.

blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2007, 05:07:28 AM »
Well i had moved the plate for the left points adjustment... and than i moved the right point only for the right adjustment.

the points look brand new.

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 06:22:11 AM »
Well i had moved the plate for the left points adjustment... and than i moved the right point only for the right adjustment.

the points look brand new.


and the contact surface?
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 06:45:29 AM »
they look good.  the bike was running fairly good just a week ago. 

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 10:52:03 PM »
they look good.  the bike was running fairly good just a week ago. 


Ok, well, if she was running well just a week ago- let's nail down the changes. You changed the valve gap and removed the points plate. So, it can't be anything far off from that point on. It could also be a coincidental issue, but I would start with the known starting point and check the work. I just encourage trying to solve it yourself because I always want to give up, but it feels great to solve it myself... well and I can afford my labor at $0 an hour :)
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Offline crazypj

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2007, 11:38:07 PM »
Well it seems simple enough with the  clymer light, but i have a question if doing it with a timing light.  They want you to run the engine, but with the generator rotor cover off, it would loose oil?  Isn't this bad?

Yes, you will, but a lot less if you place a piece of 1" thick timber under left stand leg (on center stand) tilting bike to right
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 05:04:10 AM »
they look good.  the bike was running fairly good just a week ago. 


Ok, well, if she was running well just a week ago- let's nail down the changes. You changed the valve gap and removed the points plate. So, it can't be anything far off from that point on. It could also be a coincidental issue, but I would start with the known starting point and check the work. I just encourage trying to solve it yourself because I always want to give up, but it feels great to solve it myself... well and I can afford my labor at $0 an hour :)

i had also removed the spark advancer and put a different gas tank on.  The stock gas tank has been sandblasted and i found holes in it, so i through on my 350F tank.  I had to use a T valve since it only had 1 output on the petcock.

luvhonda750

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2007, 04:13:16 PM »
I would run a compression check, you could have bad compression.

Offline mikedialect

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2007, 05:05:28 PM »
they look good.  the bike was running fairly good just a week ago. 


Ok, well, if she was running well just a week ago- let's nail down the changes. You changed the valve gap and removed the points plate. So, it can't be anything far off from that point on. It could also be a coincidental issue, but I would start with the known starting point and check the work. I just encourage trying to solve it yourself because I always want to give up, but it feels great to solve it myself... well and I can afford my labor at $0 an hour :)

i had also removed the spark advancer and put a different gas tank on.  The stock gas tank has been sandblasted and i found holes in it, so i through on my 350F tank.  I had to use a T valve since it only had 1 output on the petcock.


and you've checked to see that you're getting equal amounts of fuel flow on both carbs? It helps to know what was done in the first place to see what changed and diagnose from there...
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blantonator

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Re: problems after recent valve adjustment
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2007, 04:55:45 AM »
Well looks like the problem was the point gaps.  We adjusted the points and retimed it.  I think the right point needs to be replaced in the near future.  Took the bike out for a little spin last night and it felt pretty good, still spits a little at 9.5K, but i can live with that for now

thx guys
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 06:56:23 AM by blantonator »