Author Topic: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?  (Read 3189 times)

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Offline Philly550K1

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My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« on: June 26, 2005, 10:07:45 PM »
Missing, stumbling, bogging.  From a cold start, it will run fine for a good while, then if i hit traffic or park for a bit, it will run like crap until it totally cools off again.  My best guess right now is a "hot soak" electrical problem, and i'm hoping it sounds like something "classic", because it's a slow troubleshoot!  :)  The problem is at least repeatable, which is better than totally random/intermittent.   I can limp home, juice up the battery again to "green" on the trickle (takes a short time, i.e. battery not really drained much if any), and the behavior persists.  I have to let it cool all the way down to resume normal operation.

I was thinking either "too rich" or "fuel starving" at first, but it was a fairly sudden and recent development, on a bike i've been riding regularly.  I have within the past several weeks done most of the recommended "pre-carb-sync" tuneup items, all of which i've re-checked since this misbehavior: tappets, timing, points, plugs, float bowls drained/sifted, petcock screen, fuse contacts....   My meter is for crap, but it seems to measure an increase in voltage over the battery terminals as revs increase, but levels off over 4500.  In other words, I at least think my charging system is working.  No other typical charging system problem behavior lately.

I'm not the expert, but i do think i've ruled out fuel and carburetion.  Although my plugs had been indicating that a sync would be worth my while, it just seems like, well, a typical electrical problem!  The suddenness, the on-and-off nature of the problem, not gradual like a sync or mixture thing.  Ambient temperature, coincidentally, has crept up fairly high here in the northeast, but this problem is just as repeatable at dawn or dusk as in the heat of day.  Ask me how I know...  Anyway, no other electricals are affected, just firing (if it's electrical).  I've wiggled and re-connected the connectors up by the coils (even while riding, i've tapped and jiggled everything I could reach -- that's a tough one).  And I popped the carb caps and everyone's going up and down evenly, viewing from the top, anyway.  Haven't ventured to pop the airbox yet.  I also haven't rigged it up to run in the dark with the tank off so i can watch the wires.  That might be my next trick.

The plug wires and coils are at least 3 years old (no earlier history available, but bike's in good overall shape), and probably much older, but I have yet to turn up a smoking gun!  1975 CB550K, 29000 miles.

Please Advise!

-Jon

Matt at PSB

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2005, 10:30:39 PM »
Well if it still has points check them first. That is really the only thing wrong with points: Whenever there is a problem the points are always suspect. Then check the spark plug resistor caps. 5,000 ohms plus or minus 20% at room temperature. They often fail & they are $3.25 USD each & I have them in stock.

Matt at PSB

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2005, 11:36:04 PM »
I'd like to review the basics first if you don't mind.

Are there compression test numbers?
How about spark plug numbers?
What plug gap are you using?
Have you read the deposits on the used plugs?
Did you compare them to the pics at:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

Is your bike in stock configuration? intake or exhaust mods?
Have you checked that your fuel tank vent is clear?
Have you measured the voltage across the open points when the problem occurs?
Does applying partial choke during the problem make it better or worse?
Does removing the air filter during the problem change the symptoms?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2005, 07:24:54 AM »
thanks for the input, guys.  :)

i did compression dead cold and got 135, 140, 130, 130  1-4.   i'm planning to do it warm both when it's running fine and when it's sputtering.
plugs are new d7ea's, stock gap per manual.
over the past several months, plugs have consistently shown 2 to be lean/hot and 1,3,4 to be rich (where my "needs syncing" theory came from).  i did another few plug chops since the problem, and the only different info may be that 3 is a little blacker than the rest.  (another set of clues that i may be after the 2-3 coil area, but you're right, first things first....)

it's got a 4-1 megaphone, not stock 4-4, but because of the aforementioned general richness and good running, i haven't plumbed the carbs, so don't know jets/clip positions yet.  (oh, i'm getting there).
tank vent seems to work - i should look further into that.  i can hear it hiss occasionally when i roll the bike around the garage or what-have-you.
points voltage, no - haven't checked.  my crappy meter discourages trust on important measurements.  another thing on the list...
choke definitely makes the stumbling worse, much as it makes it stumble when warm (i try this occasionally, for some reason).  also, i tightened up the linkages, hoping that's all it was.  it could still be too much choke, but i'll have to get the box off to investigate.
air filter, haven't tried that yet.  but i've had it out and blown it clean this spring.

Some other info i could add is that it clearly exhibits the stumbling in all throttle positions once the problem starts.  Also, the plugs are recent and new (it exhibits the same behavior with two different assumed good sets of plugs), but the points are not.  I set the gaps and cleaned them a few weeks ago (they were way closed when i tended to them at that time).  Also, once the problem starts, #2 appears to be dead at idle.  It's always been the grumpy cylinder on cold starts, too.  Hmm...  I can swap the 2-3 plug wires from plug to plug while I'm futzing without ill effect, right?

Thanks again for mulling this over....

-jon

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2005, 11:10:10 AM »
i did compression dead cold and got 135, 140, 130, 130  1-4. 
plugs are new d7ea's, stock gap per manual.

 Good so far...

over the past several months, plugs have consistently shown 2 to be lean/hot and 1,3,4 to be rich (where my "needs syncing" theory came from). 

Sounds like a reasonable assumption!

it's got a 4-1 megaphone, not stock 4-4, but because of the aforementioned general richness and good running, i haven't plumbed the carbs, so don't know jets/clip positions yet.  (oh, i'm getting there).

Haven't you tried opening the air screws?  With the changed pipe, factory settings may not apply, anymore.

tank vent seems to work - i should look further into that.  i can hear it hiss occasionally when i roll the bike around the garage or what-have-you.

Hissing?  It should breathe better than that.  Sloshing you should hear.  You shouldn't even hear the tank breathe in the garage.  Fuel and air volumes don't change unless your using fuel, or barometric pressures are rapidly changing.  But, you'd feel that in your ears!

points voltage, no - haven't checked.  my crappy meter discourages trust on important measurements.  another thing on the list...

Meters make working on things invisible possible.  The alternative is to keep replacing components of the system.  Your choice.

choke definitely makes the stumbling worse, much as it makes it stumble when warm (i try this occasionally, for some reason).  also, i tightened up the linkages, hoping that's all it was.  it could still be too much choke, but i'll have to get the box off to investigate.
air filter, haven't tried that yet.  but i've had it out and blown it clean this spring.

Paper filters don't last forever as they can't be thoroughly cleared.  Remaining particles eventually build up, restrict airflow, and act as partial choke.  Hot engines need a leaner mixture than cold ones due to more complete atomization and ready oxidation.  Your description fits that of an engine whose cylinders don't fire evenly due to carb imbalance, AND one where the mixture is so rich that hot operation becomes problematic.  Temporary removal of the filter element, could be be an informative diagnostic tool.

Some other info i could add is that it clearly exhibits the stumbling in all throttle positions once the problem starts. 

Air restriction/ overall jetting pointers.

Also, the plugs are recent and new (it exhibits the same behavior with two different assumed good sets of plugs), but the points are not.  I set the gaps and cleaned them a few weeks ago (they were way closed when i tended to them at that time).  Also, once the problem starts, #2 appears to be dead at idle. 

Idle is where carb sync is most critical.  If carb 2 is closed off at idle, why would it fire?  But, then points settings and timing are basic tuneup items.  And, should be nailed down before mucking with the carbs.

It's always been the grumpy cylinder on cold starts, too.  Hmm...  I can swap the 2-3 plug wires from plug to plug while I'm futzing without ill effect, right?

They fire in pairs and are symbiotic.  During the swap you lose both cylinders.  Engine may die (ill?), but, no damage is usually done unless the spark lead insulation is brittle.  Then, bending it into unusual positions can make it crack.  This is usually permanent!

I hope you are enjoying your hobby!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2005, 12:23:00 PM »
hobby?  this is a spiritual quest, lloyd.   :)  how did Robert Pirsig put it?  the motorcycle you're really working on is yourself....

continued thanks for your attention and rich commentary.

the fact that i was able to basically hop on a 30-yr-old bike and commute and tour trouble-free for 2+years and 15000 miles with nothing but oil, chain and sprockets speaks volumes about these bikes, doesn't it?

not that i've neglected these other maintenance items -- this is just where i am in the journey.  which is the destination.  :)

you know how, e.g., a DC motor will just up and stop working one day when its brushes just don't quite reach?  that's what is making this troubleshoot intriguing, because i know i've got these issues placing straws on the camel's back.  i just have this stubborn curiosity as to whether a brick got tossed on the pile in the form of a bad coil or something.

so, less metaphorically, i'll see if popping the cap and/or removing the filter and/or swapping 2 and 3 wires brings further enlightenment.

a proper meter, carb sync tool, and coil tester would help, i can see that i'm at that point.  my birthday does happen to be in a few days....  ;)

tangential question about the mechanism by which the throttle slides adjust: i see the four locknuts and screws, and how the adjusters attach to the linkage.  i'm trying to get my mind around the geometry.  does a wee turn of the screw make a large adjustment to the slide height?  vice-versa?   the linkages themselves look like they're basically lined up.  it doesn't look like a high-precision adjustment on the outside, but small differences clearly matter to the bits inside.  i'm really trying not to touch the carbs until i'm sure it's called for.  which i know it is, but, well, on with the quest....

-grasshoppah

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2005, 01:28:57 PM »
tangential question about the mechanism by which the throttle slides adjust: i see the four locknuts and screws, and how the adjusters attach to the linkage.  i'm trying to get my mind around the geometry.  does a wee turn of the screw make a large adjustment to the slide height?  vice-versa?   the linkages themselves look like they're basically lined up.  it doesn't look like a high-precision adjustment on the outside, but small differences clearly matter to the bits inside.  i'm really trying not to touch the carbs until i'm sure it's called for.  which i know it is, but, well, on with the quest....

Um, small movements in slide height make for large differences in venturi vacuum.  That vacuum is what is pulling the fuel out of the carb jets.  And, that is what carb balancing is really about.  The mechanical alignment gets you close, the guages trim the carbs to flow evenly at each position.
I expect you will make some "spiritual exclamations" as you adjust the screws for perfect carb balance only to have then go wildly off when you tighten the lock down nuts. ;)
For me, patience and perserverence seemed to work better than prayer.  But, my viewpoint was fairly narrow in focus. ::)
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Matt at PSB

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2005, 11:08:31 PM »
OK, his first post & his later post on compression numbers still produces the following thoughts in my mind: Points and/or resistor caps. Very easy stuff to check.

Sorry if I over simplified things.

Matt at PSB

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2005, 12:49:07 PM »
guess what i remembered?  my sears gift certificate.  guess what i got?  no, not satin sheets.  a meter!

further query: i can't see anything on resistor caps in my manual.  i think there was a recent thread on this, which i suppose i'll find right after i hit "post".  on my 75 550, what values do i look for, and are resistor caps required?

-jon the grateful

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2005, 02:12:27 PM »
Resistor caps - something in the neighborhood of 5K-10K works well.  If you switch to resistor plugs (R in the number) you can use straight through caps.  If you want to annoy nearby motorists and make them more likely to show animosity toward you, don't use any resistors.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Dirk Laguna

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2005, 05:28:35 PM »
can't comment on a 550...but I had the same issue with an 81 Yam XS650 I once had....issue was the stator...so that's a direction to look

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2005, 07:28:01 AM »
Haven't gotten to more electrical testing yet, but i've tried removing the gas cap and air filter, neither of which seem to affect the miss in the least.

I'll check the electricals to the best of my capacitance first (pun), but am I in fact asking for trouble if I tweak the slide adjusters a wee bit in the expected directions (i.e. fatten 2, lean 3) without gauges on hand?  Right now it's running well enough to get me places.  In style, no less....  :)

-jc

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2005, 10:20:39 AM »
I skipped over the air screw question.  Yes, I have tried the #2 airscrew once i found 2 dead at idle.  The screw had zero effect in any position.  Should I try tweaking them on 1,3,4 before tweaking the slide adjusters?

Lloyd also mentioned: <<Idle is where carb sync is most critical.  If carb 2 is closed off at idle, why would it fire?>>

Isn't that what the slow jet is for?  I was thinking perhaps it's clogged.  But I'm a ways off from knowing that for sure...

-jc

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2005, 10:49:13 AM »
I skipped over the air screw question.  Yes, I have tried the #2 airscrew once i found 2 dead at idle.  The screw had zero effect in any position.  Should I try tweaking them on 1,3,4 before tweaking the slide adjusters?

No, they should all be turned to the same setting.

Lloyd also mentioned: <<Idle is where carb sync is most critical.  If carb 2 is closed off at idle, why would it fire?>>

Isn't that what the slow jet is for?  I was thinking perhaps it's clogged.  But I'm a ways off from knowing that for sure...

The slow jet meters a slightly foamed mixture of air and fuel, which can be slightly tweaked by the air bleed screws.  But, the majority of air, (14 to 1 ratio) is metered by the slide position in the venturi of the carb.  This is where most of the oxygen for combustion is controlled.  If the slide is closed too far in relation to other carbs in the same bank of carbs, two things occur.  One, the amount of oxygen is reduced. And, two, since the slow jet exit is located between slide and cylinder, the vacuum is increased drawing more fuel from the slow jets.  This could make the mixture too rich to combust.  Conversely, if the slide is open more relative to the other carbs,  the opposite is true, the cylinder fires more lean than others and at idle may not get enough fuel for combustion.  This later symptom is similar, though not as drastic, as a clogged jet.  At what throttle position does your #2 cylinder fire and the head pipe get hot?

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2005, 11:13:12 AM »
2's the lean burner per the plug, so this part makes sense:  << if the slide is open more relative to the other carbs.. the cylinder fires more lean than others and at idle may not get enough fuel for combustion.  This later symptom is similar, though not as drastic, as a clogged jet. >>

2 must be firing at relatively small throttle openings on up.  roll-on from idle has always been good.  i think it's only dead at idle, and once this hot-miss problem commences.  i'm not sure yet if it's the only dead pot at higher revs once it starts to miss.

this meter i got has a thermocouple probe, so when i get the time i should have me some data.  and some warm hands.

-jc

Matt at PSB

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 11:52:57 PM »
Resistor caps - something in the neighborhood of 5K-10K works well.  If you switch to resistor plugs (R in the number) you can use straight through caps.  If you want to annoy nearby motorists and make them more likely to show animosity toward you, don't use any resistors.


Auh,.... no I dis-agree strongly: 5,000 ohms plus or minus 20% at room temperature (71 F. or 21.666 C.)
At 10 K the caps are junk.

Matt at PSB

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2005, 02:04:01 AM »
Resistor caps - something in the neighborhood of 5K-10K works well.  If you switch to resistor plugs (R in the number) you can use straight through caps.  If you want to annoy nearby motorists and make them more likely to show animosity toward you, don't use any resistors.


Auh,.... no I dis-agree strongly: 5,000 ohms plus or minus 20% at room temperature (71 F. or 21.666 C.)
At 10 K the caps are junk.

Matt at PSB

The Honda place showed me their NGK catalog a few years ago.  They had plug caps that were 10K, 7K, and 5K and 0 ohms available in the same styles.  I believe OEM was 5K and that is what should be used.  But, the other caps will also work.  Witness people that are using the stock caps (5K ohm) and resistor plugs (another 5K), and still getting spark.  Granted it's not ideal, but if someone has had their 5K caps replaced with 10K caps for supply reasons, they do NOT need to immediately replace them and are hardly junk.  The extra resistance will reduce your spark reserve voltage.  But, its effects won't be aparent until the plugs approach end of useful life.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: My 550 is missing... when it's hot. Electrical?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2005, 11:28:06 PM »
i've been meaning to update this one.  basically, it was a little of everything, and everyone was right, and so far so good.  except the real kicker was a little detail we thought was covered, but it was not so obvious as to make me feel stupid.  (i get enough of those.)  it's been an education in troubleshooting.

i did find one cap badly out of spec, so i replaced it first, followed one at a time by the others, which were also off (around 10k).  none of these steps corrected the "missing" behavior (i methodically took rides from cold between each one).  while i was at it, i trimmed the very ends of the wires, which dropped my resistance a wee bit more, i guess since i had fresh non-oxidized core to bite into.

determined to do as little to the carbs as necessary for fear of making it worse, i set the tank up off the bike with fuel lines so as to be able to tweak it while running.  well, wouldn't ya know it, lightly wiggling the slide adjusters had enough of an effect to encourage further dabbling.  it wasn't pretty, but expecting the worst, i loosened a few locknuts and patiently made some minuscule adjustments until i had it happiest.  i now have 4 hot pipes at idle and much closer temps between the 4 overall.  i'll keep checking my plugs for a while to see if further actual gauge-syncing is called for.  (i'll get to it regardless, trust me...)

but guess what?  run better though it did, the p*cker kept doing it.  the hot miss.  so, still emboldened by my earlier effort and its concomitant improvement, i took to futzing with the points while it was running.  lo and fricking behold.  pinching or wiggling the 1-4 points made it fire correctly.  son of a #$%*.  (mind you, i had cleaned and properly gapped the points while the bike was not running, as well as static timing, but i have no timing light so had not taken a close look there with it running, once the problem began.) i took apart said points, re-bent the spring for more tension, carefully reassembled the little washers and everything in the right order, and walla, walla, washington.  no problems since.

i was familiar with the concept of a high-speed "point float", and even checked them this time around for integrity, but since i was getting proper voltage across them (1.5 v less than battery, never more of a drop than that), i had moved on.  but a "slow speed float" must have been what was going on, right?  just enough point surface degradation with just enough spring fatigue, which, hello, a warmer spring is a softer spring, i would have to think, hence the hot behavior.  i have also since read about "double springing", which would help, but i gather is more oriented toward high-rpm, racing-type conditions.

many thanks for your interest and guidance.  now on to the next issue.....

-jc