Author Topic: This is what we have to put up with in this country....  (Read 2135 times)

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Offline toycollector10

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This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« on: August 05, 2007, 04:10:11 AM »
Notice how the street rat has become the victim and the chef going about his business is the assailant looking forward to some jail time.

Admittedly, he could have used a shorter blade, but they got what they asked for except they brought their fists to a knife fight.

The crown prosecutor has abandoned his own conscience in pursuit of his career and has sacrificed the chef on the altar of political correctness.

This sort of crap makes me sick.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/westcoast/4151724a6662.html



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Offline merc2dogs

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 09:37:56 AM »
 
Not saying it was all his fault, but he kind of trashed his self defense plea by being "found by police running through a shopping mall nearby."

 best action if it were truly self defense would have been to call the police at the first chance and explain what happened then wait for them to arrive.
 Running is not the best way to say I'm innocent!

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Offline CrisPDuk

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2007, 10:18:38 AM »
Unfortunately it's not just your country TC, do a Google search on Tony Martin in the UK >:(
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Offline toycollector10

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 03:50:15 PM »
He was probably running before the pack of street rats got to him......
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 06:07:11 PM »
There is a couple of things which would have landed him in deep trouble in the US also. He was verbally harrassed and puched in the mouth  as they were leaving. The key thing is they were leaving, if they were pummeling him on the Bus he could make a case he was in fear of his life and lashed out in defense. Most juries would buy that. He also sunk the knife into the kid up to the hilt, not slashing as in self defense to hold the kid off. It is a real shame he was caught. The law protects even the lowest scum.
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Offline toycollector10

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 08:44:10 PM »
That Tony Martin story is tragic for everyone involved.

I bet the crime rate in that part of Anglia is an all time low though.
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2007, 10:12:41 PM »
The law protects the [even] the lowest scum implies that the law protects everybody.

Heres an anecdote:
A while back in my town, Two gay men were in a bar and a third man began harassing them (faggot, etc).  The two men left the bar, were followed out by the third;  they got into thier van at which point the aggressor began punching the driver.  It was established in court that the aggressor became caught up in the seatbelt, and the driver dragged him some distance causing serious injury.
The driver claimed he was afraid to stop as the aggressor had already attacked him.  The court found him guilty of something (perhaps aggravated assault but I can't recall).

So what?  The men were hasseled in the bar, they left the bar, they were attacked in the parking lot in thier own vehicle.  The attacker ended up injured and the men who tried to aviod the confrontation are gulity.  How has the law protected two men who went out of thier way to avoid the trouble?  Rather the law has gone out of it's way to reward assault;  Out of its way to punish self defense.  It isn't the only story of this inanity I have and I'd bet a few of you reading this have a few stories too.  A man kicks over your bike and you punch him in the nose...Who goes to jail? You.  A man grabs your wife and demands her purse and you put a knife in his ribs... Who goes to jail? you.

Anybody remember Pulp Fiction?  I'm a big fan of the 'motherf***er should'a f***ing known f***in' better' defense.  It goes like this:  So, you were punching a guy through his car window and then you got dragged halfway across town?  Well what was your fist doing in his window in the first place?  Or another one:  A guy stabbed you with a big-a** kitchen knife?  I guess if you hadn't been punching strangers on a bus that wouldn't have happened, huh?  Or:  You were mugging some folks and threatened the wife, but it turned out the man had a six-inch folder in his pocket and the balls to use it?  I guess you should know better than to attacker strangers on the street, isn't that right?


Current mself defense law in the US (it varies state to state, but this is the jist)is:  'One can use (only) as much force as needed to remove the danger'.  Also, you have a duty to retreat if possible.
Consider how this reasonable sounding statement plays out in a court; What amount of force was necesary?  was stabbing him with a knife really necesary, or would punching him back have done the job?  Maybe if you'd just given him your wallet in the first place the whole thing could have been avoided.  He probably wouldn't have really hurt your wife, he was just posturing for that wallet...
it may sound a little I'm like splitting hairs to the law-minded, but lets recall the legal lesson of my first story; A man follows you out of a bar, and begins punching you through your car window as you attempt to leave the scene and he is not only not guilty of assaulting you, you are guilty of assaulting him when you drive away and he becomes entangled and is dragged.  You are guilty because you didn't stop and help disentangle him from your seat belt.  You are guilty of not looking out for the safety of a man who was just moments ago beating you.

Self-defense law has very little to do with justice and nothing whatsoever to do with protection.
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Offline toycollector10

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 10:48:06 PM »
Nice post gregimotis.

A famous case here...young man goes berserk at home and trashes his parents house. Then he goes down-town (a small community) and smashes up every plate glass window (dozens) he can find.

A policeman arrives so the young man, in a mad rage, advances on him swinging his baseball bat.

After plenty of warnings the policeman shoots him dead. The policemans' defence was that he was in fear of his life.

This was 7 years ago and the whole nation is still wringing its hands over the rights and wrongs of it all.

Your summary was, of course, correct.

Do you know who you are picking? A cop or chef who will just lie down and turn the other cheek? Maybe, or some hard nut who thinks to himself, "f*ck with me pal, and I will f*uck YOU up!!"

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Offline Joel

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2007, 11:25:13 PM »
Responding to a punch with a knife seems, to me, excessive.  If the definition of self-defense is "as much force as necessary to protect oneself", he definitely exceeded it.

While the man didn't instigate it, he did escalate it.

Offline 6pkrunner

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 05:47:32 AM »
I feel that the legal system has protected the criminals for so long, people are now taking back the night. Sure he used a knife on the kid. How many kids were there? His two fists going to take on a gang? also the message is sent. So that poor guy gets screwed over for the rest of his life trying to defend himself, but maybe - just maybe one of these punk kids may think twice before attempting to harass someone and be protected by the legal system.
Here in Canada we found out that we had the highest rate of incarceration in th world. And the solution???? To ease up on punishment and sentences handed out so less were headed to prision and the statistics looked better. Also the Young Offenders Act was rewritten to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. And that pretty much says that any kids under 18 can get away with murder. We have a real problem with the kids and its getting worse. So vigilantes will surface to try to even the score.

Offline gregimotis

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 08:19:30 AM »
Responding to a punch with a knife seems, to me, excessive.

(This response is not directed at Joel, but rather to point out a flaw which I see in the legal system)



It's excessive if you know in advance that it's just a punch and it'll stop there, but we don't know that until after it's over. We don't know if the gang members wouldn't have continued punching and progressed shortly to kicking and stomping.  It was one guy alone getting hassled by three aggressive young men - Three men are perfectly capable of beating one man to death and you can bet everybody involved in that encounter knew it - including the young chef who was, in fact, getting beaten.  If he had not pulled a knife and had instead been injured or killed, people would instead be saying to each other, "he had a knife, why didn't he defend himself?  The law allows you to defend yourself".

But he did pull a knife, and the law doesn't.


This is really the problem with the 'only as much force as needed' statement:  How much force is needed isn't decided by the guy on the bus getting beaten by gang members, it's decided by lawyers and judges in comfy chairs in a warm courthouse with armed guards at the doors.
He did escalate it with a knife - but (according to the story) he had no priors, and no history of violence.  So what makes more sense then: He got mad and decided to show somebody who was boss or he was scared and maybe overreacted a bit?  The latter makes more sense.  Furthermore, if somebody hadn't been punching him in the first place, nobody would have gotten stabbed at all - that is the salient point, I think.

Don't want to get stabbed with a butcher knife?  Don't pick a fight with a butcher.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 08:21:51 AM by gregimotis »
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 08:29:03 AM »
Come to think of it, I wonder what would change in the law if all judges and prosecutors were made to walk around the dark streets alone, in plainclothes, and without radios every once in a while?

I'll bet a dollar something would change.  Overnight.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 08:31:06 AM by gregimotis »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 08:33:07 AM »
As gregimotis stated, how the hell do you know where the person assaulting you will stop? Stop with punching you? He's already a violent aggressor, how am I to assess just how far this dickhead will go?
Instead of trying to guess, I make sure that I am the one who dictates just how far an aggressor will go, by making sure they can no longer be aggressive towards me.
Whatever that takes.
When you are dead, what are you going to say in the afterlife, assuming you believe in one? "Well, I thought he would just knock me down, not beat my brains out with a rock, which is why I didn't defend myself..."
Defending yourself is, to me, is making sure this person has absolutely no way of harming me.
That usually means they can't move, either by being knocked out, or restrained after knocking them silly.
I will not put myself or my loved ones in danger by merely pissing off someone who is already violent.
If the courts have trouble with that, then I hope everyone of them gets beat half to death by a violent aggressor.
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 09:24:14 AM »
we had the same thing a few years ago in new york,some guy was riding home and he shot one or two young punks that were harrasing him.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2007, 09:57:22 AM »
I worked as a part time Peace Officer for 20 years and I sympathize with everything said here. When you use force you have to also use good sense. There is a difference between self defense and revenge. The way the story was written, the kids were leaving the bus.
In the case of a punch in the nose and you clock the guy there is something called "mutual combat" in which everything goes gray with the law, but you sorta get a pass criminally, civilly is another matter. If a guy is holding a knife to my wife, out comes the heat and he goes down - even in NY since a life was in clear danger and the perp stated so.
In some states like Maine, a person breaks into your home at night, what happens to him is his own fault. I was given some advice by our Instructors, if you pop a burglar in you home, hand your wife the gun and leave. Come back once the cops arrive. Why? a women is not expected to physically defend herself against a man. The DA cannot pound on her about that in front of a Jury, so they let it go.
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Offline gregimotis

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2007, 10:30:44 AM »
The chef was abused and something was thrown at him. As the group got off the bus, they made more comments and one of them punched him in the mouth.

The chef then pulled a chef's knife with 25cm long and 5cm wide blade out of his bag and thrust it into the side up to handle of a 15-year-old boy.....

"This was a serious crime. It is clearly one where the victim was lucky to escape with his life," he said.



I guess I read it differently than you did, BobbyR.  I can see how it could be read either way, what i see is 'as the boys left the bus, they re-engaged the chef verbally and physically'.


Also, (as long as I'm monologuing anyway)  How come the guy who starts the trouble gets to be 'victim' all the sudden when he gets the natural consequences of his own actions?  Maybe the newsman should call him the 'aggressor' or the 'wounded attacker' or something like that.  Again, it's turning the thing around and making the actual victim into the bad guy.
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Offline Joel

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2007, 11:37:21 AM »
From the story, it doesn't seem he tried anything less drastic than the knife before pulling it out.  However, I can understand he may not have been thinking clearly.  I probably wouldn't have been either.

The "victim" and his friends who started the confrontation definitely should have received some sort of consequences for their actions.  Just because the chef was deemed to have gone too far doesn't mean they become completely innocent.  That's a glaring oversight by the legal system and if it's not fixed, people will be forced to start defending themselves more vigorously.

Offline toycollector10

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2007, 01:06:20 AM »
The denouement...as they say in the movies....(what does that mean/)

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Offline Dawdlin Dog

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2007, 08:41:14 AM »
I don't believe the Chef is any danger to society and therefore shouldn't recieve a custodial sentence. I'm not saying he should walk away scot free, he did stab somebody after all, but given the circumstances prison is too much.

From the Cambridge dictionary :-

denouement
noun [C]
the end of a story, in which everything is explained, or the end result of a situation

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2007, 10:33:43 AM »
The chef was abused and something was thrown at him. As the group got off the bus, they made more comments and one of them punched him in the mouth.

The chef then pulled a chef's knife with 25cm long and 5cm wide blade out of his bag and thrust it into the side up to handle of a 15-year-old boy.....

"This was a serious crime. It is clearly one where the victim was lucky to escape with his life," he said.



I guess I read it differently than you did, BobbyR.  I can see how it could be read either way, what i see is 'as the boys left the bus, they re-engaged the chef verbally and physically'.






Also, (as long as I'm monologuing anyway)  How come the guy who starts the trouble gets to be 'victim' all the sudden when he gets the natural consequences of his own actions?  Maybe the newsman should call him the 'aggressor' or the 'wounded attacker' or something like that.  Again, it's turning the thing around and making the actual victim into the bad guy.

Well I just told you my Training as a Peace officer and how these things are viewed. If he And

 Not that I agree with jailing the guy. I wonder how many of you either do not vote or duck Jury Duty. One of the results of people ducking Jury Duty is that the same pool of people rotate through the pool and you get a consistant result. I am sure if those here posting were on the jury, the result may have been different.
Think about that. Would you rather a Jury of your peers, which means people like yourselves listening to your case. What you usually get is retired people who have nothing better to do, many of whom can be easily swayed.  There was a case in California in which a woman shot a rapist who was standing a corner a week after the attack. It was ruled by a Jury in her favor as he threatened to come back and do it again and she was preventing that.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline cleveland

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2007, 09:23:39 AM »
The other thing to keep in mind is the size of the people involved.  If that 15 year old kid was 6 foot and 250 pounds, I'd say he had it coming.  If the kid was 5 foot and 110 pounds, then perhaps a good old fashion whipping would have been in order.

Offline cleveland

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2007, 12:42:07 PM »
Toycollector, this one's for you.  ;)

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=26850.0

Offline toycollector10

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Re: This is what we have to put up with in this country....
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2007, 10:37:24 PM »
So you all have to have public liability insurance and hope like hell you don't get morons on a jury if the case involves yourself.

Good luck with that, you'll need it by the looks
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