Topic: Where's the milk?

[Hope]

I picked up my 550K from the shop on 9/29.  I dropped it off to have the timing checked.  I've been having some hard starting issues.  Rad Cycles told me that my battery was bad... so I went to Honda and made Honda give me a new one for free because I had only bought the battery a couple of months ago.  I tried to return the bad battery within a week of purchasing it, but they wouldn't take it back.  They said the battery was good.  So when I went to Honda, they finally replaced the bad battery after running numerous tests with every battery tester they could get their hands on. 

Rad Cycles also told me that they dropped the bowls of my carbs and that it looked like milk in my carbs.  They suspected that my cream coating was coming out of my tank.

Well, yesterday I dropped the bowls on the carbs.  You might imagine that I expected to find some white liquid that looked like milk, and white residue or some crud in the carbs.  However, when I dropped the bowls, they appeared to be full of clean gas. Please tell me where you see milk, and if you see anything that merits the carbs to be cleaned and rebuilt.

[333]

That in-line fuel filter looks like it may have something milky in it, but all the pics have that filter just a little out of focus.

[Hope]

maybe the picture makes it look like there is something milky in the fuel filter, but you can see right through the fuel filter.

[medic09]

Looks pretty clean to me.  Did the guys at Rad do a quick clean when they found the mysterious substance/residue?

[DammitDan]

Or maybe flushed the tank after they cleaned the carbs?

[Hope]

No. The guys at Rad Cycled only dropped the bowls.  They did not dump the tank.  They did not clean the carbs.  They only adjusted the valves and timing.  They told me that I was in for a carb cleaning and rebuild due to the white milky looking stuff in the bowl.  They told me to come back with rebuild kits and another tank.

Well, just so happens that my spare tank is currently being painted, and does not have creme coating... and that I have 4 rebuild kits sitting around...  However, I do not want to get into those carbs if I don't have to.  On the same day I dropped the bowls, I changed the carb boots that go between the air box and the carbs.  The old ones weren't sealing in the air box.  After I changed the boots, seems that the hard start ups stopped. (Knock on wood).  I'm hoping the hard start ups were due to the carb boots, and that maybe the old ones were sucking air and messing up my carburetion (air/gas mixture).

In any case, I didn't find the milky white substance that was explained to me.

[Gordon]

I've never come across a milky substance in the carb bowls before.  In the oil tank, sure, because that's what oil and water look like when they get mixed.  I've also never seen what it looks like when the Kreem tank lining starts to fail, but I'd think it would come off in flakes rather than dissolving in the fuel and causing it to look milky.  How much do you trust this bike shop?  I'm not saying they're pulling one over on you, but there's also no shortage of shops who will. 

[Hope]

I'm not saying they're pulling one over on you, but there's also no shortage of shops who will.

Very good question, Gordon...

I hate to think this shop is trying to pull one over on me, because this is the shop I brought the bike to in '02 when I first put my dad's old bike on the road.  They synched the carbs that I cleaned and rebuilt.  The tank was Kreemed even before they synched the carbs.  I felt that they were pretty trustworthy people.

I kind of hope that they service so many bikes (that could potentially have similar problems that I am having) that they confused my bike with someone else's.  Maybe they just have their customers mixed up or something, because I just could not find what they are talking about.

I bought some Seafoam and put some in the tank just for good measure, but as far as I can see there isn't a problem with my carbs.

Do you think that my theory is correct, that if those carb boots were sucking air then my carburetion was messed up (causing the hard start ups)?

[Gordon]

Do you think that my theory is correct, that if those carb boots were sucking air then my carburetion was messed up (causing the hard start ups)?

There are many things that could contribute to difficult starting, and poorly sealed air box boots can definitely be one of them.  If one or more of the carbs is pulling in air directly from the outside, without going through the restrictive air filter, then that carb's mixture will be much leaner than the rest, and when a cold engine is starting up it needs a richer mixture than normal. 

[medic09]

Hope, if I'm not mistaken you've showed us the bowl from one carb.  Did you peek in the others just to ascertain that they look the same?  Just asking...

[my78k]

Well for that matter Medic, Hope have you checked the tank itself? If it's white in the bowls it would have to come from the tank.

Drain some and then use a dental mirror and have a look to see if it is coming off.

Dennis

[Hope]

I checked all the bowls.  I am taking the tank off either this week or next week because I am putting my spare tank on.  I will drain the tank when I take it off and see if the Kreem is coming out of the tank.

[bistromath]

Usually gummed-up carbs get a greenish crud from gasoline varnish. Kreem likes to peel rather than melt, so I'd expect your fuel filter to catch any Kreem scum that might be coming from the tank. Carbs look immaculate to me. You could check the air boot seal by starting the bike and spraying water from a spray bottle (or starter fluid, some people like to do it that way) on the boots. If the idle note changes, you have an air leak at that boot.

[Hope]

Usually gummed-up carbs get a greenish crud from gasoline varnish. Kreem likes to peel rather than melt, so I'd expect your fuel filter to catch any Kreem scum that might be coming from the tank. Carbs look immaculate to me. You could check the air boot seal by starting the bike and spraying water from a spray bottle (or starter fluid, some people like to do it that way) on the boots. If the idle note changes, you have an air leak at that boot.

Thanks for your suggestion, bistromath, but I just changed the boots.  I suspected that the boots had air leaks, which is why I changed them.  However, the shop says my problem is in my carbs....

basically the point of my post is, "AM I RIGHT or IS THE SHOP RIGHT"?

It seemed to me that the air leaks (from the boots) were the cause of the hard start ups.  The shop thinks it's the carbs.  I changed the air boots yesterday and she's been cranking with little problem.  I just wanted to see if anyone here could see anything that looks like milk, as the shop is saying.

If there are trace amounts of Kreem, would Seafoam help prevent any potential carb woes?  I've already got the seafoam in my tank.

[Jonesy]

The only time I've seen a milky substance in carb bowls was when there was water in them. We used to keep a glass jar in the shop and when we'd drain the carbs you could see if any water was in the gas. It was usually in globules rolling around on the bottom (water being heavier than gasoline). I worked on a snowblower recently that had water in the carb. I could tell as when I removed the bowl drain, the liquid that came out just beaded up on my shop rag- whereas gasoline immediately soaks right into it.

I imagine that if there was a sizable amount of water in the bowls, the bike would have run poorly (the main jet would be pulling water, not gas), so if it didn't run badly I can't say for sure it was water that they found... MEK (MethylEthylKetone) is the only thing I know of that will dissolve Kreem lining. Does anyone know if there is MEK in Seafoam? If so, how much?

<edit> According to one website, the MSDS for Seafoam says:

Seafoam ingredients:
1. PALE OIL 4229 40-60% = A base or process oil refined until its color = yellow.
2. NAPHTHA 20 25-35%   Powerful solvent, common in all good injector cleaners.  (Zippo juice!)
3. IPA 125 10-20% = Isopropyl Alcohol (Useless in gas, since it already has tons.)

OK, so no MEK.. Looks like that disproves that theory...

[jrtruckn]

Seafoam has the following:

Pale Oil
Naphtha
IPA

[medic09]

The only time I've seen a milky substance in carb bowls was when there was water in them. We used to keep a glass jar in the shop and when we'd drain the carbs you could see if any water was in the gas. It was usually in globules rolling around on the bottom (water being heavier than gasoline). I worked on a snowblower recently that had water in the carb. I could tell as when I removed the bowl drain, the liquid that came out just beaded up on my shop rag- whereas gasoline immediately soaks right into it.

I imagine that if there was a sizable amount of water in the bowls, the bike would have run poorly (the main jet would be pulling water, not gas), so if it didn't run badly I can't say for sure it was water that they found... MEK (MethylEthylKetone) is the only thing I know of that will dissolve Kreem lining. Does anyone know if there is MEK in Seafoam? If so, how much?

<edit> According to one website, the MSDS for Seafoam says:

Seafoam ingredients:
1. PALE OIL 4229 40-60% = A base or process oil refined until its color = yellow.
2. NAPHTHA 20 25-35%   Powerful solvent, common in all good injector cleaners.  (Zippo juice!)
3. IPA 125 10-20% = Isopropyl Alcohol (Useless in gas, since it already has tons.)

OK, so no MEK.. Looks like that disproves that theory...

Shucks, I thought IPA was India Pale Ale...

[MoTo-BunnY]

Shucks, I thought IPA was India Pale Ale...

I think you are referring to performance additives for mechanics instead of gasoline.   

[TwoTired]

What does water in gasohol look like?

[coyotecowboy]

What is the clear-whitish lookin crap on the bowl o-ring?  And did they drop all of the bowls, and did they possibly run a rag through them to wipe the little bit of crud out?  I'm asking because I'm a mechanic and I can hardly imagine dropping the bowls, checking them and then just putting them back on without even wiping them out.  If you take something loose, you clean it before you put it back on, thats pretty much standard operating procedure everywhere you go.

[Hope]

What is the clear-whitish lookin crap on the bowl o-ring?

They used something to adhere the o-ring to the bowl.  Yep, when they dropped the bowls, they put them back with o-rings that were completely shot.  So, you think it is standard operating procedure for them to wipe out the bowl when they use "clear-whitish looking crap" to stick old crusty o-rings back into the bowls?

When I dropped the bowls, I pulled the o-rings out of my rebuild kits and put new, fresh o-rings back in the bowls.

[goon 1492]

It does kinda sound like they are pulling your leg alittle, is ther a way you can request the same mechanic in that place to be the only one doing work on your bike, i know from personal experience you can develop a good friendship and have a mechanic do good work that way and really get to know your bike.  Kinda like using the same doctor for decades theory, other than that your carbs. look pretty good

[MoTo-BunnY]

I have to say that as a woman, I have seen/heard it all in regards to mechanics. Yes, the majority of them are fine, however I have had plenty of experiences where they were all "honey" this and "sweetie" that while totally trying to pass a fast one over me.

Having been raised as quite the tomboy around my dad and his friends - all old school hot rodders (late '60s muscle cars) I picked up quite a wealth of mechanics' knowledge over the years.

Usually, I would just let the mechanic ramble on about things he thought he could pass over on a clueless woman and then offer MY opinion using proper nomenclature and correct diagnostic/troubleshooting procedure.

After picking their jaw up off of the floor, they would then NOT treat me as if clueless. 

(Car shopping was always fun too - stopping them mid-sentence on the "Lookie at all the cup holders and pretty colors!" spiel and asking about the engine, mileage, warranties, etc.    he he)

[Hope]

I have to say that as a woman, I have seen/heard it all in regards to mechanics. Yes, the majority of them are fine, however I have had plenty of experiences where they were all "honey" this and "sweetie" that while totally trying to pass a fast one over me.

Having been raised as quite the tomboy around my dad and his friends - all old school hot rodders (late '60s muscle cars) I picked up quite a wealth of mechanics' knowledge over the years.

Usually, I would just let the mechanic ramble on about things he thought he could pass over on a clueless woman and then offer MY opinion using proper nomenclature and correct diagnostic/troubleshooting procedure.

After picking their jaw up off of the floor, they would then NOT treat me as if clueless. 

(Car shopping was always fun too - stopping them mid-sentence on the "Lookie at all the cup holders and pretty colors!" spiel and asking about the engine, mileage, warranties, etc.    he he)

I hear ya.   Before anyone tries to pull a fast one on me, they need to take a long, hard look at my bike.  My dad passed away in 1998 and I put it back on the road in 2002.  Do the math.  Most everyone here on this site knows what happens to a bike when it sits for 4 years.  I did the work needed to put the bike back on the road: tires, carbs, points...  I put 750 brakes on my 550, which the dumbass Honda mechanic said could not be done.  I rebuilt the brakes once I got them on.  I change my own oil, spark plugs, and regularly check for any maintenance and/or repairs that may need to be done.

c'mon, you can't tell me that he didn't think I would drop the bowls... and see shoddy workmanship of putting those crusty old o-rings back in the bowls.

When I dropped the bowls, I just couldn't find the white milky looking stuff he was referring to.  The truth will be in the tank when I get that tank off this weekend and drain the whole thing...

[Hope]

I am bumping this old thread for 2 reasons:

1. So that wpnssgt_usaf can see the carbs that we're rebuilding
2. For a date reference of exactly how old my *%$#&ing battery is

According to the dates on this thread, on 9/29/07, I got a new replacement battery for the bad one Honda sold me.  Well, after 1 ride on 9/29/07 and sitting on my battery tender, the battery WILL NOT turn the bike over.  It will not crank.  Has Honda replaced the bad battery with another bad battery?

FYI - The charging system on my bike has been checked.  The charging system is good. 

No more Honda batteries for me.  What is the best battery I can put on my 1975 Honda CB550K?!?!?!