Author Topic: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??  (Read 12209 times)

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Offline mick750F

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2007, 08:30:33 AM »
  Look at the CBF2.....you gonna get 100,000 out of that head?

   Thanks Mike...you really know how to make a guy cry. :'( :'( :'(  ;D ;D ;D

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Offline 754

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2007, 08:39:26 AM »
I hvent seen the inside of a busa, I would think some new engine are a bt mor buildable than other, some by design would be more prone to failure once you double the HP. its a lot harder now to get large gains as the engines put out way more HP.

There was a Busa that scattered its guts this year on the salt, took a while to clean up all the bits it lost!! I was looking for it inthe pits, wanted to see how bad it was..

 There was 2 of them there that did run 240, and I saw a Honda 600  with turbo..that ran 181 the first day (dont know how he ran later in the week), he said he was getting 210 on the dyno before he left and had gotten it up to 230 before.

 They sure make a lot of HP these days..
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Offline Dave K

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2007, 12:06:48 PM »
Only an opinion. But I noticed when I had my F4,I would frequent the sport bike web sites. Many of these guys (no, by no mean all of them!) didn't have a clue how to maintain a bike (or a car or a lawn mower). These guys would not see 100,000 mile carrying a pet rock, without breaking it. I do know that the F4/F4I's do need cam chain tensioners looked at, but I am sure I could get as many miles and probably more out of the newer bikes, like the F4. Many of us here at this site, know how to maintain mechanical devices. Oh, as reliable as the old 750's are they had a few minor issues when they first came out as well. Remember the broken chains, until they got the rear hub cushions right? Of course it wasn't the broken chain that hurt, it was the broken sand cast block, that made you cry. IMHO the CB750 showed the Japanese the way, but the newer bikes have refined it to the next level, and it is good. I had both bikes here at the same time. As is usual for me, over Winter, I take my bikes down and clean,lube, polish and inspect everything. I can't fault the F4 I had and the way it was made.

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »
I think at this point the big four have figure out that the majority if their sport bikes have a life span of 2-4 years and are building thim accordingly. If not wrecked before then they get traded in pretty frequently.

Here is one that scared me...some of the guys with the R1's and zx10s with the nikasil coating instead of iron liners are rerpoting massive blow by in the blocks because the rings are wearing out the coating faster than anticipated. Scary! even scarier is honda's cbr1000 for 2008 is going to embrace this technology (Honda was the last hold out in this trend).

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2007, 02:12:52 PM »
I think at this point the big four have figure out that the majority if their sport bikes have a life span of 2-4 years and are building thim accordingly. If not wrecked before then they get traded in pretty frequently.

Here is one that scared me...some of the guys with the R1's and zx10s with the nikasil coating instead of iron liners are rerpoting massive blow by in the blocks because the rings are wearing out the coating faster than anticipated. Scary! even scarier is honda's cbr1000 for 2008 is going to embrace this technology (Honda was the last hold out in this trend).


Moto Guzzi began running Nikasil in the 80's I believe. The FJR1300 uses it to as it helps the engine run cooler. It is a very hard surface......it is impossible to even hone without diamond hones. If you deck a cylinder it "catches" it is so hard. Some isolated incidents are going to occur no matter what. I wouldn't worry about it to much. ;)
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2007, 02:20:57 PM »
BMW ran nikasil in the 1990s with many problems. Overall I think it is a good coating, I don't think it is a good replacement for iron liners. From a service standpoint it definatly is not if you haev to rebore or recoat the cylinders.

The early yamaha R6's had problems with iron liners and nikasil. The coatings were delaminating and the rings were wearing them down fast. No matter how hard it is if it is applied improperly it is useless. Yamaha's solution was to get rid of the iron liners and now the R1's are starting to show blow by, because the cylinders are going out of round and pushing the nikasil into the rings in certain spots (and opening up the tolerances in others).

I don;t think it is a problem with the coating itself, I think it is a problem with everything around the coating. My only cavet is I don't have any first hand expirence with this...my buddy owns an R1 and I pick all this info up from the service tech's at the dealership where he goes. Thoes guys know us and love talking bikes. 
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2007, 02:25:41 PM »
Over here nikasil bores in dirt bikes don't last very long at all, and there are kits available to convert them back to cast iron sleeves. Also there are companies who thrive on re-nikasil-ing cylinders.

I better not talk too loud though, my 100,000 mile BMW probably has them, but then again, it rarely runs above 5000 RPM, is water cooler, and over-maintained. "Horses for courses", I guess? Look after your bike, and it will look after you.

I hope this discussion isn't turning from "A good CB750 rider will kick an R1 riders asss" to second prize, "well, modern bikes might be faster, but they're fragile", ha ha! What's next, "Well modern bikes might be faster and better built, but older riders of older bikes are smarter and better looking"? Silly buggers...........  Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2007, 02:37:36 PM »
What's next, "Well modern bikes might be faster and better built, but older riders of older bikes are smarter and better looking"? Silly buggers...........  Cheers, Terry. ;D
....now you've gone to far. ;) ;D
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2007, 02:43:16 PM »
 As a side note....the last CBR600F1 I worked on (to be used as a roadracer)had the material embedded in the cylinders as opposed to a coating. This was told to use by Millennium who handled the cylinder work. This was a couple of years ago. Anyone familiar with this?
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2007, 03:39:01 PM »
FYI, My '82 Bnw r100rs uses nikasil plated valve seats. I think the '81 was the first year that used them. Looks like Moto Guzzi was plating cylinder bores in production bikes from 1980 on. I know the plating process is somewhat tricky as BMW had problems with valve recession that I think was related to problems with plating the valve seats.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2007, 04:09:31 PM »
FYI, My '82 Bnw r100rs uses nikasil plated valve seats. I think the '81 was the first year that used them. Looks like Moto Guzzi was plating cylinder bores in production bikes from 1980 on. I know the plating process is somewhat tricky as BMW had problems with valve recession that I think was related to problems with plating the valve seats.
Plated valve seats Ben??
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 04:18:54 PM by MRieck »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2007, 08:12:28 PM »
As a side note....the last CBR600F1 I worked on (to be used as a roadracer)had the material embedded in the cylinders as opposed to a coating. This was told to use by Millennium who handled the cylinder work. This was a couple of years ago. Anyone familiar with this?

That sounds a lot like the way Chevy made the Vega I-4 engines in the 1960s and -70s. They were only 40k mile engines, though. Ford went the other way, with both iron blocks and iron liners in aluminum blocks (Ford had 2 different I-4 engines, 1600-2000cc, both built both ways). The Ford engines in either version were good for 150,000+ miles. I drove my 1974 Capri 2000 aluminum-iron liner type 225,000 miles, then sold to it someone who wanted it for the good-running engine!
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Offline Master Ted

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2007, 08:19:33 PM »
As a side note....the last CBR600F1 I worked on (to be used as a roadracer)had the material embedded in the cylinders as opposed to a coating. This was told to use by Millennium who handled the cylinder work. This was a couple of years ago. Anyone familiar with this?

That sounds a lot like the way Chevy made the Vega I-4 engines in the 1960s and -70s. They were only 40k mile engines, though. Ford went the other way, with both iron blocks and iron liners in aluminum blocks (Ford had 2 different I-4 engines, 1600-2000cc, both built both ways). The Ford engines in either version were good for 150,000+ miles. I drove my 1974 Capri 2000 aluminum-iron liner type 225,000 miles, then sold to it someone who wanted it for the good-running engine!

Those Ford motors were so good we used the 1600 in Formula Ford and the 2000 in the Super Fords (Formula Continental) in SCCA ranks. You could go the whole race season on those motors if you took care of them and, that was a very good thing for a tiny race budget.

But, then I stepped to Formula Atlantic and everything got stupid expensive... I should have just stayed in Super Ford and those good old reliable motors.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 08:22:15 PM by staphcar »
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2007, 04:41:29 AM »
Plated valve seats Ben??


Thanks for calling me on this, as I researched a bit to overcome some confusion I had. The introduction of Nikasil as a coating for cylinder sleeves in 1981 coincided with the change from leaded to unleaded fuel. For some misguided reason, I though that the valve seats were also Nikasil, and responsible for the valve recession that some bikes had due to the content of sulfur in deleaded gas and it's effect in removing the Nikasil plating. The softer iron in the seats then caused the recession.

In looking on line more closely, it is difficult to find what the seats were made of. Additionally, I'm not sure that sulfur was increased when lead was removed from gas, so perhaps I made it all up. If the seats were made of a material that depended on the lead additive in gas to increase its hardness, then perhaps the switch to unleaded was all it took to cause the recession. Conspiracy theories abound.....


Offline S-Dog

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2007, 05:04:13 AM »
What is leaded gas?   ;D ;D ;D
































I'm kidding.  But it was gone before I have any recollection of it.  I do remember my dad buying lead additive for his big for truck though.
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2007, 05:20:53 AM »
What is leaded gas?   ;D ;D ;D


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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2007, 07:11:44 AM »
werent those old ford and chevy motors actually cosworth engines? I seem to remember the twin cam vegas using a cosworth I-4 and also the pinto had a cosworth twin cammer as well. My parents used to have matching red pintos one v-8 and one I-4. My dad's was jacked up with fat tires on it and he used to cone bash with it at Jones beach. I had a friend with a black and gold twin cam vega with a cherry bomb in new orelans. Car sounded like nothing else when he got on it - like a really loud kenner zip strip racer (speaking of which anybody remember "smash up derby") .

I just re-read that and realized I am getting old. Sux.

so...yeah...um...how about those cb750s...

As an aside...anybody notice squids who removetheir back brake? I got next to a guy on a cbr f3 at a light a couple of days ago and noticed he had removed the rear caliper. Everything else was there, just the caliper and lines were gone. So I asked him about it and he said he never used it, it began to drag and stick and rather than rebuild it he just yanked it. I don't know about you but right before I roll in for the turn I give my rear a quick stab to settle the bike, I also cover it religiously when I lane split and use both brakes when I am jockeying in manhattan for that super stopping power.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2007, 07:25:12 AM »
Geeto, we HAVE to use the rear brake. Both front and rear on ours don't do as well as just the front one on a newer bike....
Yes, I use my rear brake too. I'll use it occasionally to step the rear end out for a little fun countersteering in turns.
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Offline 754

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2007, 08:11:57 AM »
They are not cut from the same cloth as us 70,s survivors..

I think they are cut from KEVLAR or something.....







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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2007, 10:16:06 AM »
My Mother totaled her Vega. It was the first car my old man did not get angry about being damaged. It was such a headache he just wanted the insurance money and be rid of it. He liked to keep cars until the floor was gone.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 05:38:13 PM by BobbyR »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2007, 05:14:09 PM »
Plated valve seats Ben??


Thanks for calling me on this, as I researched a bit to overcome some confusion I had. The introduction of Nikasil as a coating for cylinder sleeves in 1981 coincided with the change from leaded to unleaded fuel. For some misguided reason, I though that the valve seats were also Nikasil, and responsible for the valve recession that some bikes had due to the content of sulfur in deleaded gas and it's effect in removing the Nikasil plating. The softer iron in the seats then caused the recession.

In looking on line more closely, it is difficult to find what the seats were made of. Additionally, I'm not sure that sulfur was increased when lead was removed from gas, so perhaps I made it all up. If the seats were made of a material that depended on the lead additive in gas to increase its hardness, then perhaps the switch to unleaded was all it took to cause the recession. Conspiracy theories abound.....



Yeah mate, we've only recently (since 1986) gone across from lead based fuel to "unleaded", and as the lead in fuel "cushioned" valves and seats, removing the lead caused rapid valve seat recession and burned out valves, so the valves and seats in "unleaded" vehicles  were made out of much harder materials, including stallite. (although, I've had the valves replaced in my 1999 Toyota work truck twice in 5 years, so work that out) I'm not sure what material BMW used, but the point is, you're not insane, just confused! ;D
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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2007, 07:41:28 PM »
About those Cosworth engines: rumor had it back then that Cosworth built heads and oil pumps, then used Ford bottom ends. Everything seemed to fit like it, anyway!

And, I was sure that there would be valve recession and all that stuff when I opened up my 750 last year, since the last time I did that, there was lead in the gas. But, not a hint! The faces of the valves were slightly concave, which I would expect at 100,000+ miles, but that was it. And, the guides had only worn .0012", worst case one. I was suitably impressed: Honda put a lot more in these old SOHC4 engines then they needed to, generally speaking, and more than in anything but the Gold Wing, since!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2007, 08:16:00 PM »
And, I was sure that there would be valve recession and all that stuff when I opened up my 750 last year, since the last time I did that, there was lead in the gas. But, not a hint!

I've never heard of valve recession being much of a factor on the 750s.  I check the tappet clearances on my '75 750F every 3000 miles like a good boy, but never have to adjust anything.  108,000+ miles.

You mentioned awhile back you were going thru the tranny on your high mileage 750 and post pictures.  Did I miss it?
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Offline CrisPDuk

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2007, 01:01:06 AM »
About those Cosworth engines: rumor had it back then that Cosworth built heads and oil pumps, then used Ford bottom ends. Everything seemed to fit like it, anyway!


Mainly correct Mark :)

Cosworth used to be an independent  engineering company, designing and building mainly competition engines (their - Ford backed - DFV V8 is the most successful F1 engine ever). The 16V cylinder head was originally intended to be an aftermarket product for use on the 2.0L pinto block, which at that point in time (early '80s) was probably the most modified and tuned engine in Europe (to this day people are still tuning and using them, archaic boat anchors though they may be ::) ).

Around that time Ford were getting creamed by both BL/Rover and BMW in the British and European saloon car championships, and their head honchos were looking for payback.  Whilst on a tour of Cosworth's facilities following a meeting about the DFV's successor, Ford's head honchos recognised block sitting under the new head on a dyno, and asked what it was.

A plan was hatched there and then.  It was determined that a turbo would be needed to generate the sort of power the Rovers and Beemers were achieving with their 3.5L V8 and straight 6 respectively, and this combined with the fact that to even enter, 2000 road cars needed to be produced (and warranted), meant that the old (even then) Pinto block would need to be redesigned and strengthened.
Ford set Cosworth a target of 100bhp/L for the road car engine, and eventually, after an epic struggle, they managed to get the output down to 204bhp at the flywheel, the first thing almost every owner did as soon as they'd left the showroom though was to swap the ECU's program chip for one that would liberate the 300+bhp Cosworth struggled so much to reduce ;D

Ford achieved their aim too, Sierra Cosworth RS500s dominated both championships (and also the Aussie equivalent) right into the early nineties, when turbos were banned from all saloon car series :(

The naturally aspirated twin cam heads (both 8V & 16V types) found on pinto blocks were entirely of Ford Germany design, with no input from Cosworth.

Simultaneously (and probably co-incidentally), Cosworth had also been contracted by GM (Vauxhall/Opel) to design a 16V cylinder head for their production 2 Litre four.  Because the GM block was a far better starting point, the result became probably the greatest 4 cylinder road car engine ever, it was listed as having 150bhp at the flywheel, I personally have never seen one generate less than 160, and I've seen more than a few kick out over 170 in stock form ;D  When modified for competition use they are capable of up to 280bhp, all the while using the stock crank :o


Cosworth Engineering are now a wholly owned subsidiary of the Valkswagen Audi group, although they still undertake consultancy work for other manufacturers :)
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Offline Helo229

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Re: Ever Run up against Newer bikes on a SOHC Honda??
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2007, 06:59:07 AM »
My hat goes off to any and all of you who have the gusto to challenge modern sport bikes! Personally, I have less than a full year on a bike, and I live in PA (which to those of not in the know, has been voted "Worst Roadways of America for over a decade, displaced only by Louisiana, thanks to Katrina). It's impressive to hear that with the right rider, these machines of yesterday can still give a modern crotchrocket a run.