Topic: A tragedy in New Zealand.....

[scondon]

 First off, let me thank you, Raul, for the measured response

  The "big rig" incident was not meant as a comparison to the level of risk of 90mph wheelies but more as reminder that no one riding a motorcycle is immune from the "deserve what they got 'cause they were stupid" comments from people. I don't disagree with what's been said about the risks to self, and others, that comes with speed and stunt riding. I do, however, have issues about fellow riders using an anonymous death to put themselves in judgement as to who deserves to die. There were only a few posts in this thread that gave me that impression, and I may be putting my own spin on what I read, but I thought it tactless and self-promoting none the less.

   When I read the post the first thing that caught my eye was that the kid was 20 years old. I had all but one of my encounters with the ground and guardrails before I was 25 and am very grateful that I was allowed to "learn my lesson" without serious injury or death to myself or others. At 42, I am still learning how to be responsible in society. At 20 years old I didn't have much of a clue.

  Second thing that grabbed me was that the unofficial report was that the frame had broken when the wheel touched down. This reminded me of the sudden flat I got on my front wheel while doing 70mph on the freeway. At the time, I was very happy to make it to the side without incident and was even more grateful that it had happened while doing the speed limit in a straight line. I do check the mechanical condition of my ride frequently, and still had a failure. I also speed on occasion. With some of the reasoning given here, it did not sound like a far stretch that had I died getting a flat at 90mph that I would be written off as proof of Darwins theory. I realize that it IS a stretch, but hope you can understand why I found some of the perceived callousness distasteful.

   The last thing that got me was the guard wire that cut him in two. I go riding with a lot of different groups. One of them is a "hooligan" motorcycle club that a friend belongs to. Despite their appearance and antics I have found these guys to be quite stand-up people and some of the best "group" riders I have ridden with. On one particular ride, one of the guys hit a wheelie on the freeway. The freeway was 4 lanes and was empty of traffic for at least 1/2 mile to the front and rear of us. His top speed was probably 80mph when he touched down. Had his triple tree snapped on impact sending him into a guard wire, cutting him in half it would have been the loss of a good man who always looked out for the riders in the pack and would split the last 1/2 gallon in his tank should you run dry short of a service station. I doubt anyone at his wake would be taking it any other way than to say he knew the risks and died doing what he loved. Anyone holding forth the opinion that he got what was coming 'cause he was a stupid moron would be beaten down for their lack of tact.

   I realize that this is a forum on the internet and we can't all be expected to become personally involved with all we see and hear. It's just too much to ask, I know. The discussion behind risk and consequences of certain types of riding is a good one to have and this is a good thread to have it. I can't argue against most, if not all that I've read here. I only take issue with how some of the posts were worded. They sounded callous, self aggrandizing, and, well, not very well thought out.

[DarkRider]

Ok...looking at this from someone who rides with a group that stunts and has stunted myself. Yes i agree as the newer bikes get lighter and faster more things like this are gonna happen because as said..the lighter frames flex more and somethings gotta give after awhile...thats the reason the more serious stunters in the group had older bikes because of their heavier frames. the newer one of the two was a 98 Gixer 600 the other one was a CBR600 F3. both of which are fairly sturdy framed bikes still...I have seen that F3 take a few spills that should have destroyed it had they been at higher speed. But heres the fine difference between my group and these squids out there...when we stunt we take it to an industrial parking lot or an abandoned stretch of road where the only ones at risk are the riders on the machines..no one else..speeds rarely exceed 50 because we all focus more on low speed stunting and control.  However...theres plenty of squids out there and they are gonna continue to make the more responsable riders look bad.

[Rocking-M]

Scondon, I think Raul has given us a great response as to risk, I particularly liked the running with the bulls analogy .

I was thinking about the wire that got the young fellow today. We don't use such barriers here as far as I know, but where I do
99% of my riding is pretty much lined with barbed wire or woven wire everywhere I ride. If not it's trees, or pretty steep mountains on the sides.
Guard rails actually look less dangerous in a way (if I think about it) but I'd hate to hit any on them.
We fire our bikes up and go out and enjoy them, all the while our goal is to keep it in our lane and between the ditches as they use to say.

But if any of us are killed riding at least we can be remembered as going with our boots on. Or as you put it, doing what we enjoy. And I prefer
to think that is the way the young fellow you told us of went. The big shame is the frame busting and that sounds like an engineering
fault to me. Most wheelies land no harder than a small pot hole, and if small pot holes over time will break a steering neck there is a problem.

[GoatBaSS]

Methinks the point is BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!

Every day above ground is a good day, so watchit! And go out and meet the day! And May the road rise to meet you...

[my78k]

I don't even want to think about this #$%*...I subscribe to the Ostrich school of thinking...my head is frimly stuck in the sand....

Dennis

[333]

I think most people here are missing the point, if you want safe, just give up motorcycles and take the bus

The facts are that accident rates are a couple tenths of a percent BETTER than cars, a fact that I believe goes to the agility of bikes.  The injuries are another matter.  If you want to use this as a reason to say we flirt with death every time we throw a leg over the seat, then I would counter with "doing wheelies at 90 is flipping your middle finger at death".

I don't have any problem with people stunting in parking lots or industrial parks.  I will point out that if Indian Larry had been wearing a helmet like most of the sportbike stunters I've seen, he'd still be alive today.

And then I go back to my point which is image.  We as bikers need considerably less bad press.  It is only human nature to remember the negative, so why give it to them.  It would probably suprise even many in our own ranks that during Daytona Bike week every spring, there is actually RACING.  At the track.  EVERY DAY!  But every time you see something on TV about Bike Week, it's only about the stupidity that goes on in town.  Bad press.  And don't get me started about movies.

[mrbreeze]

I think most people here are missing the point, if you want safe, just give up motorcycles and take the bus

The facts are that accident rates are a couple tenths of a percent BETTER than cars, a fact that I believe goes to the agility of bikes.  The injuries are another matter.  If you want to use this as a reason to say we flirt with death every time we throw a leg over the seat, then I would counter with "doing wheelies at 90 is flipping your middle finger at death".

I don't have any problem with people stunting in parking lots or industrial parks.  I will point out that if Indian Larry had been wearing a helmet like most of the sportbike stunters I've seen, he'd still be alive today.

And then I go back to my point which is image.  We as bikers need considerably less bad press.  It is only human nature to remember the negative, so why give it to them.  It would probably suprise even many in our own ranks that during Daytona Bike week every spring, there is actually RACING.  At the track.  EVERY DAY!  But every time you see something on TV about Bike Week, it's only about the stupidity that goes on in town.  Bad press.  And don't get me started about movies.

This is so true!!!!!!!

[mrbreeze]

Oh.........and YES..I agree....Indian Larry would more than likely still be with us if he was wearing a helmet!!!

[Terry in Australia]

Man, I wish I could do a 90 MPH wheelie on one of my bikes!

And I agree with Sean, death seems a bit harsh as punishment for an act of stupidity, if that was the case, most of us married blokes would be fertilizer by now, ha ha!

[scondon]

Scondon, I think Raul has given us a great response as to risk, I particularly liked the running with the bulls analogy .

   I agree with you 100%, and thanks for talkin' me down, man   Raul, you've never had to earn my respect. You had it the day you joined and have been building it with every post. My thanks for your measured response was sincere in that I was glad to be discussing something I obviously feel strongly about with you, which gave me an opportunity to work out just what it was that had me so irked...

   Usually when something is said that really gets under my skin I have to look at my own #$%* in order to get to the root of it. In this case, it may have all or nothing to do with a kid dying on the other side of the world, doing wheelies pro or con, discussions of safety and responsibility, whatever..... I think what I read into some of this touched a nerve on something I care a great deal about and that is motorcycling and the motorcycle community of which, like it or not, I am a part of and responsible towards.

   Nothing on the first page of this thread was all that inflammatory, and the opinions expressed were genuine(I would hope) so there really is no reason for me to call "foul" or point fingers. And there is no loss of respect or ill will felt on my part. I just got to a point while reading it that some opinion, or voice, was missing that I wanted to hear that would reflect the type of feelings I have about my fellow rider, idiot or not. And that feeling is one of responsibility. Responsibility to learn, act, and ride as a representative of all riders which I, at times, have failed to do. And also, responsibility to the younger or less experienced riders to teach good habits or just call them on their #$%*.

   I know we're just talking amongst ourselves here and might choose a different tact when confronting a squid on their dangerous behavior, but "you're gonna kill someone you #$%*in' idiot. I hope you die" hasn't done much good in trying to persuade some hothead that his/her antics are having real effects on how people perceive bikers in general and can have direct consequences on all riders safety when milling amongst the cages. I know that nobody actually said "you're gonna kill someone you #$%*in' idiot. I hope you die", just want to illustrate that it is my opinion that more, or better dialogue is needed if, and when we are ever given the chance to help our community or fellow rider.

  I'm writing all this so that maybe I'll remember. Thanks for letting me post it here

  And Terry, thanks for reminding me that I haven't had a good laugh at myself yet today. Geez, do I gotta take myself sooooooo serious   Thanks, mate

[Raul CB750K1]

I'm glad that you brought the Indian Larry topic up because when I knew about his death and how it happened I couldn't help but think it was probably the stupidest death in the World. Think about it: the guy had a troublesome youth, even went to jail, struggled to find his place in society, and when he is getting worldwide recognition and making top dollars..... he kill himself just because he was trying to please some rallygoers that would be struck at the scene, but would forget him in a couple of weeks!!!! Maybe he was a living legend because of his carelessness attitude, but at the end he was another sad proof that life is a long distance race and if you put all your energy at the first miles, you won't make it to the finish line.

Evel Knievel is going to have a painful seniorship because of his many injuries, but even then he was able to survive to some hair-rising crashes. Why? The environment was controlled, there was no dangerous barriers around, he wore protective gear. And what is more important, he was making TOP money on his jumps. At least he had, if not a good reason, a good excuse to risk his life. Life is an asset we all are given at birth; it is up to us how much value we put on it. Life should be something worth living; preservation in itself doesn't make sense because otherwise we would live in cocoons and that's no life at all. Between living in a protective cocoon and living each day as our last day there is a compromise, and each one has to decide where the line lays. Have you ever done, before taking an important decision in your life, write down in a piece of paper the pros and cons? Before doing things like stunt riding you should write down what would you get from it, what would you lose, and what the chances are of both outcomes, and then decide whether it's worth it.

Dangerous sports are generally practiced by youngsters, in what I define as the "peacock syndrom", that is, a show-off attitude to attract females and rise above the other males, like peacocks or deers do. As soon as people grow up or find a partner, they give up with dangerous sports. Exceptions as Tony Hawk, A.C. Farias or the like are explained because they have made a way of living from a pastime and they had put so much time on it they can't do anything else to make a living.

[toycollector10]

Another well reasoned and logical post from Raul. Thanks.

[crazypj]

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'
 or, to put things in another perspective,
 'are you alive, or just living?'
 We've all done dumb stuff, stop trying to be someone else's conscience

PJ

[andy750]

"Dangerous sports are generally practiced by youngsters, in what I define as the "peacock syndrom", that is, a show-off attitude to attract females and rise above the other males, like peacocks or deers do. As soon as people grow up or find a partner, they give up with dangerous sports."

I need to disagree with you there Raul. You are even contradicting yourself. Everyone here rides motorcycles, which by some is considered a "dangerous sport". On this Forum and in the real world there are all ages that ride so its not something to "give up" when married or as you get older. Its an individual choice that we make based on the pros and cons we come up with. Ted Simon who I met last week, was 43 when he rode round the world in 1973. He did it again when aged 69.

There are also other examples were being older is actually an advantage in dangerous sport - think of mountaineering. Older mountaineers generally have greater stamina than younger guys and experience as in any sport/pursuit counts for a lot. Think of Edmund Hilary or Chris Bonnington  (famous British mountaineer) or Hamish McInnes (famous Scottish mountaineer) - all very experienced old mountaineers, risking life and limb in scaling the highest mountains in the world. Go to any skydiving school and you will see plenty of older guys jumping out of planes. Its not limited to the young.

Dangerous sports, for me, is not about being young or old but about living. As has been mentioned here already, if you want safety hang up your helmet, stop doing dangerous things and try and live a "safe" life. Unfortunately that dosent work either. Go into any Rehabilitation center and you`ll find that most of the people who are in there are not there because of motorcycle accidents are dangerous sports but are there because they fell off a ladder or fell down the stairs or something very ordinary. I went to a rehab center here in Boston to see a friend of mine who WAS in a motorcycle accident (and is now paralyzed) and he was the ONLY guy in the building who was there because of motorcycles. I was surprised!

Once again I agree with PJ  and as I said previously....we all make our own choices on what we do or dont do (some of us are more selfish than others) but no one is perfect and no one is right.

cheers
Andy



 

[upperlake04]

The summit pic of a recent hill climb - yes I know it was dangerous, reckless and foolish and we didn't deserve to survive.. but man I felt alive after the descent..                                                                         

[andy750]

Man you are reckless! 

[Uncle Ernie]

I did a wheelie at zero miles an hour.
BMW R26 is a 250 single and known as one of the heaviest and slowest bikes ever made.  Allegedly, a German alcoholic bolted an engine to a boat anchor he mistook for a damaged motorcycle frame, and- well...
So.  I'm sitting on this bike and holding the throttle wide open while the revs climbed.  When I was done with my cigarette, I stubbed it out and popped the clutch.  The bike stood straight up, hovered like that for a few seconds, and fell sideways on top of me.

I think it's an adrenaline thing, mixed in with the stupidity of inexperience and an inability to learn fom other's mistakes.  Hormones are powerful.  Thank God I don't have any left.
Probably, people who make a business of shooting videos will re-inforce the frames of bikes and that will become standard practice.  I suspect in the right circumstances, doing stunts is not in and of itself dangerous- the learning how part is though.  Some folks are afraid to die, but some folks are afraid to get old.

Mostly, it boils down to an ancient addage passed down among bikers starting with the Vikings and Huns, to wit;

                            sh*t happens

[Raul CB750K1]

Andy, what I meant is that, in my opinion, young people do crazy things not only for the kicks of it, but also to be recognized by the group, to increase his status in the group. I enjoy riding motorcycles, but as long as I wear my full-face helmet, no matter how many wheelies I pop, nobody will know it was me. There is no point in popping a wheelie or making a burnout if nobody is watching or nobody knows who you are. The reward is in the "upgrade" of your public image. In other "danger" sports such as hill climbing or motorcycling, the reward is in your inner satisfaction.

¿Have you ever seen those "ghostrider" videos on youtube? A guy with a sportbike, wearing all-black leather, that drives around traffic in speeds more than double than the limit, and flees the police. I'm sure the guy gets some kicks from it, but the kick is not in doing it but in recording it and letting the world know what he does -even ef he has to remain anonymous.

It all changes when people is looking. People pick their noses in the traffic lights because they are so absent-minded they don't realize somebody is watching. When we walk on the beach we instinctively hide our tummy in. Even whe, in our 30's, 40's or even 50's, cant' help sometimes to start a race with the car besides as soon as the lights turn to green, while we pretend we are not racing and we check with our peripheral vision how the other car struggles to overtake us but can't....  It is in our genes, we need to show we have bigger tails than the other peacocks, we have bigger and stronger horns than the other deer. With age we can sublimate the instinct, but when we are young the testosterone is stronger than the brain.

Vanity, just vanity.

[ekim98]

There must be something wrong with me then, because I'm 59yrs. young and I practice burnout starts and fool around to see if I can pull the front end up in second gear on empty back roads or vacant parking lots. I don't need a crowd of people watching me abuse my bike or myself. I do it for me, to see how good I can do it and see if my upgrades give any "seat of the pants" improvement. If I get hurt or die I don't want a bunch of onlookers. As a vol. fireman/first responder I see enough of them at fires,accidents and medical runs. And yes I know the risks but I try not to get carried away(no pun intended).

[my78k]

ditto except I am 32 but still not looking for attention (not that I would turn it down!)

The wheelie thing has been fun since I was a kid! Admittedly I suck at them and even on my CBR I am lucky to get it up more than a few inches (LOL...also no pun intended!!) so lord knows I won't even do it in a crwod....the only thing worse than a guy showing off for attention is one who is trying to show off for attention and isn't very good!

Dennis

[Rocking-M]

The summit pic of a recent hill climb - yes I know it was dangerous, reckless and foolish and we didn't deserve to survive.. but man I felt alive after the descent..                                                                         

Dave, you foolish youngun, I am glad your still with us however!
How will I ever collect all those beers you owe me if you kill yourself in a climbing accident.
I see you had a couple of Sherpas with you and I assume they help you down.
Did you suffer altitude sickness? 

[upperlake04]

     You're hijacking this thread RM 

[Terry in Australia]

ditto except I am 32 but still not looking for attention (not that I would turn it down!)

The wheelie thing has been fun since I was a kid! Admittedly I suck at them and even on my CBR I am lucky to get it up more than a few inches (LOL...also no pun intended!!) so lord knows I won't even do it in a crwod....the only thing worse than a guy showing off for attention is one who is trying to show off for attention and isn't very good!

Dennis

You can't wheelie a CBR? My grandma could wheelie a CBR! Mate, you suck, go stand in the corner. (just kidding, put that gun down..............) 

[mrbreeze]

ditto except I am 32 but still not looking for attention (not that I would turn it down!)

The wheelie thing has been fun since I was a kid! Admittedly I suck at them and even on my CBR I am lucky to get it up more than a few inches (LOL...also no pun intended!!) so lord knows I won't even do it in a crwod....the only thing worse than a guy showing off for attention is one who is trying to show off for attention and isn't very good!

Dennis

You can't wheelie a CBR? My grandma could wheelie a CBR! Mate, you suck, go stand in the corner. (just kidding, put that gun down..............)  ........all the females in my family can do that!!!!!!!!

[Terry in Australia]

You can't wheelie a CBR? My grandma could wheelie a CBR! Mate, you suck, go stand in the corner. (just kidding, put that gun down..............)  ........all the females in my family can do that!!!!!!!!

Any of them females single Fred?