Author Topic: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION  (Read 3699 times)

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Offline Brantley

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750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION
« on: May 23, 2011, 07:32:49 PM »
In the cleanup for reassembly stage of top end teardown number 2 of my K0. Torn down again to hopefully solve mystery oil leak that's been driving me nuts. I basically had to destroy the knock or dowel pins that go between the case and cylinder at the outermost front studs to get them out to clean the gasket mating surface. No biggie, thinks I, I have plenty of spares around from other (broke) engines I have laying around. So I decide to look in the old parts manual and the knock/ dowel pins between the cylinder and head are supposed to be longer. Check out numbers 13 and 14 here: http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=125946&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1969&fveh=2998
Sorry, can't cut and paste the drawing...
Here's the rub: ALL of my spares (and the non-mutilated ones pulled from said K0 engine) measure 12x18mm (or like 17.89mm if you wanna really get down to it). NONE are 12x15 OR 12x22. What gives? Am I gonna run into any real world problems (i.e. more oil on the ground)? I've torn down and reassembled several top ends and never noticed a difference in length of these things. Anyone notice the same?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 11:31:10 AM by Brantley »

Offline markb

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin question
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 05:57:39 AM »
The 12x22 is incorrect.  The pins between the case and the cylinder are 12x15 and between the cylinder and the head are 12x18.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin question
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 07:35:07 AM »
The 12x22 is incorrect.  The pins between the case and the cylinder are 12x15 and between the cylinder and the head are 12x18.
That sure seems to be the case. I just recently put mine together, the original knock pins were long gone and I was drawing from my stash. I measured the depth of the holes and adding them together couldn't see how a 22 would work. Too tall. So I used 18s.  Good thing as i didn't have any 22s.
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin question
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 01:40:12 PM »
The 12x22 is incorrect.  The pins between the case and the cylinder are 12x15 and between the cylinder and the head are 12x18.
Makes sense. Strange, though, that my ancient parts catalog AND the current Honda parts fiche all say 22mm. I also find it odd that I've never noticed a size difference. I KNOW I've pulled 18mm's from the case to cyl. side (not on the current project, those are deee-stroyed). Does it make a difference if it fits? Should I grind off 3mm from the ones I have?
Ron- I seem to remember you looking for pins in a post recently. Were these the ones? Did you modifiy what you had or buy new? And if you did get new did you think to throw a caliper on it (or notice that it is actually shorter)?

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin question
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 06:03:22 PM »
The 12x22 is incorrect.  The pins between the case and the cylinder are 12x15 and between the cylinder and the head are 12x18.
Makes sense. Strange, though, that my ancient parts catalog AND the current Honda parts fiche all say 22mm. I also find it odd that I've never noticed a size difference. I KNOW I've pulled 18mm's from the case to cyl. side (not on the current project, those are deee-stroyed). Does it make a difference if it fits? Should I grind off 3mm from the ones I have?
Ron- I seem to remember you looking for pins in a post recently. Were these the ones? Did you modifiy what you had or buy new? And if you did get new did you think to throw a caliper on it (or notice that it is actually shorter)?
Yes I have an ancient parts book too, stops at K2, same thing. Yes these are the knockers i was looking for/at.  My original ones had been separated from the engine years ago, probably (some assurdly) destroyed in removal. But I have a small stash of them.  I ordered 22mm fromMotogrid, they showed they had them, but then backordered them with no expected date of release. Remember my engine came apart 10+ years ago. Going together, the cases, cyllinders, and head were all from different sources.

So I measured the holes themselves. You have to measure down the side of the holes as they have a taper in them. If you measure to the center of each hole you'll get an erroneous reading that is too deep. 22s would have never been short enough and would have jacked the head up off the cylinders. My final decision was to use ones that for instance set all the way down in the cylinder with about 4 mm sticking up above the head cheese. The receiving hole in the head was no more than 6mm. That should be enough, we'll see. I'm pretty sure I measured them at 18mm.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin question
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 11:28:55 AM »
Unbelievably, the local stealership had part # 94301-12150 on the shelf (the "correct" case to cylinder dowel pin). Maybe it is believable as the pin fit in the case side of the cylinder sure don't look right. Can anyone else chime in on his assembly experience or have a 750 mill currently apart to measure these things?
Markb- is the 15mm pin maybe for sandcasts only?

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 12:56:53 PM »
See how far the 15 drops in the case, below the cylinder. If 4+mm still sticks up you should be OK, IMO
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 01:21:49 PM »
Ron, I'm a bit confused which size you used on the case/ cylinder side by yr last post. Confirm? I realize this thread is super minutia oriented, but I DO NOT WANNA TAKE THIS MILL APART AGAIN! I have done some measuring and 18mm seems will work, but I'm wondering if that's why nearly every pin is stuck L.A.M.F. in the jugs...

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 09:19:17 PM »
Ron, I'm a bit confused which size you used on the case/ cylinder side by yr last post. Confirm? I realize this thread is super minutia oriented, but I DO NOT WANNA TAKE THIS MILL APART AGAIN! I have done some measuring and 18mm seems will work, but I'm wondering if that's why nearly every pin is stuck L.A.M.F. in the jugs...
At this point I'm working off memory, I did not take notes, so that's always dangerous. But I think I put 12x15s in the case. There was plenty sticking up to receive the cylinder. Then I put 12x18 in the cylinder, agains with plenty sticking up to receive the head. I polished them up and I used a touch of anti seize to help out the next guy.

The main thing was to have enough sticking up to do the job without having TOO much sticking up to screw the job.
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Ron
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Offline markb

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Re: 750 crankcase>cylinder>head knock/ dowel pin CONFUSION
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 11:42:22 AM »
Markb- is the 15mm pin maybe for sandcasts only?
Good question but I'm not sure.  Certainly the 15mm was correct on my sandcast (and K0) but it could be that it's too short for later models.
The main thing was to have enough sticking up to do the job without having TOO much sticking up to screw the job.
Seems like at least 4mm sticking into the cylinder would be adequate.  As long as the pin length is less than the sum of the hold depths you'll be OK.
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