Author Topic: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)  (Read 3178 times)

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Offline paulages

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i decided that sending my gears off to be professionally refinished just wasn't in my budget  ::), but if the mating of the teeth was causing HP loss between the crank and the rear wheel, then well...something had to be done. mark's (hondaman) method involved 2"x4" blocks with V-cuts used to mount the shafts and simulate rear wheel drag, and hand cranking the gears with valve lapping compound on the teeth until you want to fall asleep. my method is just a bit of an upgrade and a shortcut.

i used an extra set of cases and mounted the bottom end (trans installed) into an extra frame i had. when turned upside-down, this allows direct access to the gears. i mounted an electric engine above the frame, and then used a floor jack to position the frame to it. when lowered, it tensioned the belt. the rear wheel was installed to create appropriate driveline drag, so that the teeth would wear properly.







upon first running it it spun way too fast, so i bought a simple light dimmer to act as a rheostat. the first video show us starting it up, and my first additions of valve lapping compound. after the compound created enough friction, it required almost full power to run it.





sorry, but i couldn't figure out how to turn the second video upright. this was at a more reasonable speed. that's mark (mlinder) at the end there looking sharp and witty. joe cantrell (agiyo) showed up too. real nice guy! much thanks to those guys for helping fiddle with it, and especially for helping put it back upright when the front sprocket flew off and sent the whole bike off the jack! i'll post finished pictures once i get them gears all cleaned up.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 12:41:54 AM by paulages »
paul
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Offline 754

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2007, 07:32:37 AM »
Looks like it works, if you use the 2x4 method and your shaft centres are off, you may be sorry later..

 I got a cutoff tranny from a 750K.. be perfect.. find a damaged case and saw off the crank part..
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 08:18:27 AM by 754 »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2007, 08:10:50 AM »
I didn't know your camera was recording sound. That's funny.

Was pretty interesting, and funny, at the same time.
No.


Offline HondaMan

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2007, 06:57:42 PM »
Most excellent! I'm sorry I didn't see this thread before.  :D

This is WAY easier than what we did, and I'll bet it took a lot less beer to turn those gears.

You'll see the tiny "steps" wear off quickly, then they'll be the devil's own to clean that compound from, but the difference is immediately noticeable upon reassembly. I still think this is the biggest reason guest riders on my 750 have always commented, "Man, yours has SO much more low-end than mine...", or similar things.

Now, I can't wait until you get it all put back together. Last year, because of a worn-out clutch bearing, I replaced the mainshaft in mine with a younger set of K4 gears and shaft. I've been sorry ever since, especially in 2nd and 3rd gears. I next plan to either renew the bushings in the old gears (and somehow, that needle bearing in the clutch), or have to redo the whole set. Or, maybe you can start a service: I'll send mine to you?   8)
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Offline old750

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2007, 07:05:01 PM »
hey i wonder if sparty did this on his build. could it be icing on the cake?

does it really give you any more power?

what about throwing in a handfull of sand in the gear box and just running the bike?  ;D k just bein stoopid.

Offline MRieck

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2007, 07:21:39 PM »
hey i wonder if sparty did this on his build. could it be icing on the cake?

does it really give you any more power?

what about throwing in a handfull of sand in the gear box and just running the bike?  ;D k just bein stoopid.
Sparty's trans was sent to Fast By Gast. Glass beaded and undercut. That's the drill.
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Offline paulages

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 08:26:30 PM »
hey i wonder if sparty did this on his build. could it be icing on the cake?

does it really give you any more power?

what about throwing in a handfull of sand in the gear box and just running the bike?  ;D k just bein stoopid.
Sparty's trans was sent to Fast By Gast. Glass beaded and undercut. That's the drill.

i looked at their website, but assumed that it would be well out of my budget. at least the undercutting. i found another place that uses some other process for the polishing that they claim is better, but who knows..

yes mark, i've already discovered how difficult it is to clean that compound off. haven't had a real chance yet, but when i tried...whew! BTW, i thought about keeping the setup and offering a cheap service to forum members, but i'd like to know that it really worked right first. i'd probably rig up something a little less janky. ::) it shook the whole wall. i do have a spare 750 frame, but the only junk cases we had laying around billy donated to mr. blasty before he moved to kentucky. if i could find a set, i'd be able to do 500, 550, 650, and 750 gearboxes. another kink to try and work out: i intentionally used old bearings, because i'm not sure how it would be possible without trashing them.

i didn't do the clutch basket and primary gears yet, because the basket is being balanced.
paul
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 07:30:22 PM »
I don't remember doing the primary gears, myself. Since my setup was so primitive compared to yours, the couple of trannys I did were a whole winter's worth. After that, I showed it to others, who wore out their own arms, all on CB750K engines. One of them was the guy who came up with the 2x4 loading routine to speed things up, but he was one of those that Hollywood could photograph as a "classic biker", with biceps that could remove my living room wall easily, too. (Yeah, we called him "Tiny"...)

If you decide, before I get my 2nd tranny ready, to offer it as a service, PM me. Please...? I really don't think the old bearings will make any appreciable difference, as it is the face steps on the gears that need the mating-clearancing routine. The alignment of these teeth, in real running, is not real tight. You can see that once you get it all cleaned up: Honda's backlash spec for new gears is around .005", which lets the larger ones rock nearly .030" at the teeth. The dogs do the torque coupling work, the gear teeth do the rotational transfer work. So, tiny improvements in meshing smoothness pay off big in rotational transfer efficiencies. That's one of the reasons better oils improve the HP thru these boxes: less face-to-face losses because the oil is slippery-er...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Soos

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 04:17:36 AM »
Awesome!!
man this build of mine keeps getting things added to the list of things to do before re-assembly....
If i ever finish it will be amazing!

l8r
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Offline paulages

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2007, 05:33:58 PM »
I don't remember doing the primary gears, myself. Since my setup was so primitive compared to yours, the couple of trannys I did were a whole winter's worth. After that, I showed it to others, who wore out their own arms, all on CB750K engines. One of them was the guy who came up with the 2x4 loading routine to speed things up, but he was one of those that Hollywood could photograph as a "classic biker", with biceps that could remove my living room wall easily, too. (Yeah, we called him "Tiny"...)

If you decide, before I get my 2nd tranny ready, to offer it as a service, PM me. Please...? I really don't think the old bearings will make any appreciable difference, as it is the face steps on the gears that need the mating-clearancing routine. The alignment of these teeth, in real running, is not real tight. You can see that once you get it all cleaned up: Honda's backlash spec for new gears is around .005", which lets the larger ones rock nearly .030" at the teeth. The dogs do the torque coupling work, the gear teeth do the rotational transfer work. So, tiny improvements in meshing smoothness pay off big in rotational transfer efficiencies. That's one of the reasons better oils improve the HP thru these boxes: less face-to-face losses because the oil is slippery-er...

i'll let you know if i get an extra set of 750 cases to play with. thanks for the tips!
paul
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Offline bryanj

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2007, 07:43:55 AM »
Shame you are in US i got a set complete with the extra ventilation by the sprocket in my garage/tip
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Offline paulages

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2007, 09:37:16 AM »
Shame you are in US i got a set complete with the extra ventilation by the sprocket in my garage/tip

extra ventilation.  ;D you sure that's not a heavy duty chain oiler?
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Offline MRieck

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 10:22:58 AM »
Shame you are in US i got a set complete with the extra ventilation by the sprocket in my garage/tip

extra ventilation.  ;D you sure that's not a heavy duty chain oiler?
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Offline mark

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 06:18:11 PM »
Awesome!!
man this build of mine keeps getting things added to the list of things to do before re-assembly....
If i ever finish it will be amazing!

l8r


No kidding.

Extra frame. Spare cases. A few grades of good ol' Clover compound. Too much time on my hands.

hmmm...


happy trails.


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Offline HondaMan

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Re: another hondaman tip in action: trans gear polishing (for the tech tips?)
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 06:23:51 PM »
i'll let you know if i get an extra set of 750 cases to play with. thanks for the tips!

I have a set of cases in the garage that suffered the "drag racer's dogma", i.e., chain wrapped around the alternator (or something), then heliarced back up. They leaked incessantly, which is how they worked their way to me, eventually - he was tired of trying to mess with the leaks.

Maybe I'll borrow your idea: I only have a little DC gearmotor, which could run from the battery & charger when the bike's not using it. Hmmm...I've been reluctant to throw the cases out, but this might be a good "something" to make out of them!

Next: how to figure out a rebuild for an oil pump. Mine's so work out that it doesn't ever open the bypass valve, even when the engine's cold.  :-\
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 06:27:17 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline paulages

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never followed up with photos...here they are now. it was hard to get photos that would accurately show the difference between the before and after, but in places you can really see the horizontal lines on the side of the teeth that didn't get the treatment (the non-pressure side). seeing the polished faces is a little harder, but it's there. in the first photo, the polished sides are visible on the left, facing up, and in the second photo they are most visible in the third set of gears from the left, on the sides of the teeth facing the bottom of the screen. let me tell you, there was plenty of valve lapping compound, but it seemed to polish the teeth in specific spots. the polished spots really seem to tell where the actual points of contact are under stress.




i still don't know how much this actually will do for power retention through the drive train, but it make sense logically when you see how rough those gears are stock.

by the way, i screwed up a little in my gear selection when i did this. in the picture, the 1st gear (all the way right) is from the 550 and didn't get the treatment. the rest are from the 650.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 01:41:27 AM by paulages »
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Offline Soos

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Looks NICE!!!


How much would you charge to do a set?
 ;D ;D

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I asked him that, too...my arm isn't what it used to be...and, I have that tranny from you, waiting for the answer...  ;D

"P": you're gonna like it!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline paulages

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How much would you charge to do a set?
 ;D ;D

l8r

the funny think is that i never have taken the electric motor off the post where i mounted it, so it really wouldn't be that hard to do another. the problem is, at least with this method you should be prepared to buy all new bearings for the tranny. even at low speeds, the compound gets everywhere, and i'm sure trashes the bearings. it would be cool to find some sealed bearings to use just with the setup. i'd do it for someone else, but can't exactly warranty the result, as i haven't even tested it myself. i'll tell you what though: the gears sure do spin fine cleaned up and in the case now... i like to pretend that i can feel them turning smoother.  ;D

paul
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Offline HondaMan

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How much would you charge to do a set?
 ;D ;D

l8r

the funny think is that i never have taken the electric motor off the post where i mounted it, so it really wouldn't be that hard to do another. the problem is, at least with this method you should be prepared to buy all new bearings for the tranny. even at low speeds, the compound gets everywhere, and i'm sure trashes the bearings. it would be cool to find some sealed bearings to use just with the setup. i'd do it for someone else, but can't exactly warranty the result, as i haven't even tested it myself. i'll tell you what though: the gears sure do spin fine cleaned up and in the case now... i like to pretend that i can feel them turning smoother.  ;D



I think there is one thing I left out in that post that ended up in the FAQ: run 2 short oil changes when you start it back up. Honda used to recommend one at 50 miles and then at 500 miles, with filters both times. There will be a bit of particulate showing up in the oil filter, especially at the 50 mile, while the micro-crud gets squeezed out of the teeth in the beginning.

I was just looking at my old mainshaft & gears: boy, are they smooth now (120K miles after that treatment). I GOTTA figure out a way to rebush the insides of these gears. They were so smooth and silky...  :)  I think they could use a pull-cut ("back cut") now, though.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline paulages

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How much would you charge to do a set?
 ;D ;D

l8r

the funny think is that i never have taken the electric motor off the post where i mounted it, so it really wouldn't be that hard to do another. the problem is, at least with this method you should be prepared to buy all new bearings for the tranny. even at low speeds, the compound gets everywhere, and i'm sure trashes the bearings. it would be cool to find some sealed bearings to use just with the setup. i'd do it for someone else, but can't exactly warranty the result, as i haven't even tested it myself. i'll tell you what though: the gears sure do spin fine cleaned up and in the case now... i like to pretend that i can feel them turning smoother.  ;D



I think there is one thing I left out in that post that ended up in the FAQ: run 2 short oil changes when you start it back up. Honda used to recommend one at 50 miles and then at 500 miles, with filters both times. There will be a bit of particulate showing up in the oil filter, especially at the 50 mile, while the micro-crud gets squeezed out of the teeth in the beginning.

I was just looking at my old mainshaft & gears: boy, are they smooth now (120K miles after that treatment). I GOTTA figure out a way to rebush the insides of these gears. They were so smooth and silky...  :)  I think they could use a pull-cut ("back cut") now, though.

yeah, i was planning on it... no matter how much i scrubbed, there is still grey on the surface of the non-loaded side of the gears, which helps to really show off the "steps." i've worked too hard on this engine not to baby it in the beginning at least. i'd love to have back cut them, but i don't think i'll be road racing this guy for the mean time. if i do, maybe i'll work up another trans to drop in.
paul
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1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R