Topic: Military Helicopter

[ekim98]

I live between Fort Campbell,KY and Fort Knox. Just had an army helicopter fly over so low my monitor vibrated. And I felt the vibration before I heard it. It's really scary some times. Last year we could watch 4/5 copters at a time line up behind a big tanker and practice refueling, looked like maybe 150 feet off the ground. Don't know why they did it so low?

[mlinder]

So they don't get shot down by ground to air missles from over some horizon?
My guess.

[DammitDan]

It's a flying technique called nap of the earth (NOE).  They stick as close to the ground as they can get so as to hide their profile from radar and to help sneak up on targets.  When they fly between hills and stay under ridge lines it becomes extremely difficult to determine which direction the helicopter's sound is coming from.

The pilots out of Ft Campbell like to use my parents' house as a waypoint during their night operations (it's a big log house on top of one of the highest hills in the county).  A few times they've even flipped the spotlight on the house, flipped it off again, turned around and flown back in the direction they came from.  Quite interesting.

[gerhed]

Did someone say helicopter ?

[csendker]

Way back when I was in college (Clarkson), I used to make the run up Rt. 11 in NY heading toward Potsdam.  This road cuts through the corner of Ft. Drum.  Sometimes I'd be driving along when all of a sudden a couple of A-10 Warthogs would pop out of nowhere and zero in on my car.  They're basically flying 30-caliber machine guns that could reduce me to ground beef in seconds.  You could almost see the pilots laughing...and the trail of urine behind my car.

[Bob Wessner]

They're basically flying 30-caliber machine guns that could reduce me to ground beef in seconds.

I think you mean 30mm Gatling guns. Same net result though.

[333]

So they don't get shot down by ground to air missles from over some horizon?
My guess.

Does that happen alot in KY?

[ekim98]

So they don't get shot down by ground to air missles from over some horizon?
My guess.

Does that happen alot in KY?

Never can tell what some of these redneck's around here will do

[csendker]

Same net result though.

Yup. Ground beef is ground beef.

[BobbyR]

So they don't get shot down by ground to air missles from over some horizon?
My guess.

Does that happen alot in KY?

I would imagine KY is pretty safe. The ability to fly low is a key to survival for any ship that could be in a combat area.  I am sure they were practicing that skill on the refueling. The higher you are the sonic booms from the rotor tips can be heard farther away and your direction is more easily determined. When you are at a higher altitude the enemy has more time to acquire you as a target.
At low levels the sound bounces around and can be reflected and absorbed by objects in your path. This means the enemy has less time to acquire you as a target.
Helicopters are very slow craft. The Vietnam Huey slicks has a top speed of 120 Mph, a gunship had less since there was more drag created by the flex guns and or rocket pods. Even the most advanced Cobras can only travel at a maximim speed of 200 mph and unless
someone can change the laws of physics, that 200 mph is the max.
Having said all of that, a ship on a routine flight should not be flying that low over residential areas. The drivers like low level flying since it gives you the illusion of greater speed. His/her fun should not knock the dishes off the wall. If it were me I would contact the Base Commander and make a complaint.       

[ekim98]

So they don't get shot down by ground to air missles from over some horizon?
My guess.

Does that happen alot in KY?

I would imagine KY is pretty safe. The ability to fly low is a key to survival for any ship that could be in a combat area.  I am sure they were practicing that skill. The higher you are the sonic booms from the rotor tips can be heard farther away and your direction is more easily determined. When you are at a higher altitude the enemy has more time to acquire you as a target.
At low levels the sound bounces around and can be reflected and absorbed by objects in your path. This means the enemy has less time to acquire you as a target.
Helicopters are very slow craft. The Vietnam Huey slicks has a top speed of 120 Mph, a gunship has less since there was more drag created by the flex guns and or rocket pods. Even the most advanced Cobras can only travel at a maximim speed of 200 mph and unless
someone can change the laws of physics, that 200 mph is the max.
Having said all of that, a ship on a routine flight should not be flying that low over residential areas. The drivers like low level flying since it gives you the illusion of greater speed. His/her fun should not knock the dishes off the wall. If it were me I would contact the Base Commander and make a complaint.       

You are probably right, but I figure there training to go overseas and things won't be quite as nice then, so I'll grin and go with the flow - so far no harm/damage, just a little anoying.

[mattcb350f]

Some interesting reads on the subject:...

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2004/articles/oct_04/rescue/index.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/11/mil-031116-mcn01.htm

...Seems they practice low level refueling to avoid detection since the helicopters will be getting refueled in unfriendly territory, usually near a crash site.
Also, time is of the essence and climbing both burns more fuel and takes a lot of unnecessary time.

cheers, Matt.

[USN20]

The Navy is no stranger to low level Helo refueling and it's done while the ship is underway. Back in the day we used to receive an extra $110 a month for being on the refueling detail.

[ekim98]

The Navy is no stranger to low level Helo refueling and it's done while the ship is underway. Back in the day we used to receive an extra $110 a month for being on the refueling detail.

I'll bet that was really assume to see. 

[Raul CB750K1]

There are quite a few pilots in the forum that could probably prove me wrong -I don't remember anybody here saying they pilot helicopters though-

but some years ago I had a boss whose one of his life dreams was to learn how to pilot an helicopter. He was making top money, so one day he decided to join a pilot school. He suceeded in getting the licence -having to pay the necessary flying hours by his own pocket-. He was very passionate about it and many times he would tell us how the rotor blades would change the tilt to modify the lift and advance, how an engine failure was not as dangerous as in a plane because the rotor inertia would take the helicopter down at a discreet speed.


And I recall -but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago and we had things to do at the office apart from listening to him - that when the helicopters were flying low, the air would "bounce" on the ground and would increase the lift of the helicopter. I guess that the principle is the same than with planes: creating a high pressure below and a low pressure above. When flying near the ground, the pressure gets higher as the virtual "air bag" below the helicopter only gets filled.


But again, I could be wrong.

[BobbyR]

You are pretty close to right. I drove a Huey in Nam. Rotary wing craft use lift from the spinning "wings" so the principle is the same as a fixed wing propellor. The rotors are like a disc above you. You tilt the disc to determine your direction which is called "cyclic" pitch, and "collective" pitch of the rotor blades to determine your rate of climb. The tail rotor stabilizes you so you don't spin around with the main rotor. A tail rotor failure is an instant crash at low speed. At speed the crash will be delayed until you slow down.
In the event of an engine failure, you disengage the main rotor and use the cyclic and collective to try to keep enough forward speed to keep the rotors spinning fast enough to maintain some lift. This is a very tricky operation and even if properly done it is really a controlled crash. What you hope to do is sort of skid to a stop at the end.
As you figured, there is and envelope of air that forms beneath you from the rotor wash when you are close to the ground, and pilots use that cushion make a hot landing, but it is not used in a normal dustoff.   

[hopterfixer]

And I recall -but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago and we had things to do at the office apart from listening to him - that when the helicopters were flying low, the air would "bounce" on the ground and would increase the lift of the helicopter. I guess that the principle is the same than with planes: creating a high pressure below and a low pressure above. When flying near the ground, the pressure gets higher as the virtual "air bag" below the helicopter only gets filled.
The increased lift close to the ground that you are speaking of is called Ground Effect.  We talk about whether you are In Ground Effect (HIGE) or Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) when it comes to hovering and how much weight you are able to hover with at a given altitude, temp, etc.  Every helicopter is different due to weight, dimensions, power available, etc.  When flying forward, the helicopter uses it's surfaces to create lift which is one of the reasons it takes less power at cruising speed.
 
The Navy is no stranger to low level Helo refueling and it's done while the ship is underway. Back in the day we used to receive an extra $110 a month for being on the refueling detail.
Are you talking about HIFR (Hover In Flight Refueling)?  There are provisions for HIFR on the V-22, but we were always under the assumption that we would burn more fuel than we could take on in a hover. 

[USN20]

The Navy is no stranger to low level Helo refueling and it's done while the ship is underway. Back in the day we used to receive an extra $110 a month for being on the refueling detail.
Are you talking about HIFR (Hover In Flight Refueling)?  There are provisions for HIFR on the V-22, but we were always under the assumption that we would burn more fuel than we could take on in a hover. 

Hopterfixer,

Yes, HIFR (Hot-In-Flight-Refueling) is what I was making reference to. I don't have a clue about the V-22 as I never refueled one. My HIFR experience revolved around the Navy H-2, H-3 and CH-46 helicopters. Refueling those damn things certainly won't be missed! 

SH-2G
http://navysite.de/planes/sh2.htm

SH-3H
http://navysite.de/planes/h3h.htm 

CH-46D/E 
http://navysite.de/planes/ch46.htm

[BobbyR]

The Navy actually pioneered air to air refueling I believe it was around 1965. Helicopters have a fairly limited range compared to fixed wing craft as Hopterfixer pointed out. The Navy was missioned with Pilot recovery and they had to travel fairly long distances many times having to take an indirect route. The fear was that the turbulence and prop wash from the USMC KC-130 would either damage the chopper or destabilize it. That was proven wrong and allowed for more Airmen to be extracted.

[Buber]

And I recall -but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago and we had things to do at the office apart from listening to him - that when the helicopters were flying low, the air would "bounce" on the ground and would increase the lift of the helicopter. I guess that the principle is the same than with planes: creating a high pressure below and a low pressure above. When flying near the ground, the pressure gets higher as the virtual "air bag" below the helicopter only gets filled.
The increased lift close to the ground that you are speaking of is called Ground Effect.  We talk about whether you are In Ground Effect (HIGE) or Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) when it comes to hovering and how much weight you are able to hover with at a given altitude, temp, etc.  Every helicopter is different due to weight, dimensions, power available, etc.  When flying forward, the helicopter uses it's surfaces to create lift which is one of the reasons it takes less power at cruising speed.

Actually Russians constructed HUGE planes to be used for transport in the watery areas, flying over water using exacty this principle - cushioning from below. They were only prototypes, though. They never seen actual field duty.

And choppers are COOL to fly. I had a chance to fly with agri-cultural spraying pilots. NOE? They would be going no more that 3-4 meters off the ground (as to spray correctly). SUUUPER fun 

[hoodellyhoo]

[/quote]

Actually Russians constructed HUGE planes to be used for transport in the watery areas, flying over water using exacty this principle - cushioning from below. They were only prototypes, though. They never seen actual field duty.
[/quote]

And I recall -but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago and we had things to do at the office apart from listening to him - that when the helicopters were flying low, the air would "bounce" on the ground and would increase the lift of the helicopter. I guess that the principle is the same than with planes: creating a high pressure below and a low pressure above. When flying near the ground, the pressure gets higher as the virtual "air bag" below the helicopter only gets filled.
The increased lift close to the ground that you are speaking of is called Ground Effect.  We talk about whether you are In Ground Effect (HIGE) or Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) when it comes to hovering and how much weight you are able to hover with at a given altitude, temp, etc.  Every helicopter is different due to weight, dimensions, power available, etc.  When flying forward, the helicopter uses it's surfaces to create lift which is one of the reasons it takes less power at cruising speed.

Actually Russians constructed HUGE planes to be used for transport in the watery areas, flying over water using exacty this principle - cushioning from below. They were only prototypes, though. They never seen actual field duty.

And choppers are COOL to fly. I had a chance to fly with agri-cultural spraying pilots. NOE? They would be going no more that 3-4 meters off the ground (as to spray correctly). SUUUPER fun 

Found a picture of one of the russian planes on wikepidia.


I watched a history channel show on it once. Supposedly the US spy sattelites took pictures of it but we could never quite figure out what it was.

[hopterfixer]

The Navy is no stranger to low level Helo refueling and it's done while the ship is underway. Back in the day we used to receive an extra $110 a month for being on the refueling detail.
Are you talking about HIFR (Hover In Flight Refueling)?  There are provisions for HIFR on the V-22, but we were always under the assumption that we would burn more fuel than we could take on in a hover. 

Hopterfixer,

Yes, HIFR (Hot-In-Flight-Refueling) is what I was making reference to. I don't have a clue about the V-22 as I never refueled one. My HIFR experience revolved around the Navy H-2, H-3 and CH-46 helicopters. Refueling those damn things certainly won't be missed! 

SH-2G
http://navysite.de/planes/sh2.htm

SH-3H
http://navysite.de/planes/h3h.htm 

CH-46D/E 
http://navysite.de/planes/ch46.htm

We were taught/called it Hover In Flight Refueling.
 http://www.acronymfinder.com/acronym.aspx?rec={74734070-C890-4FA0-B162-701933D43B5C}
I was a Mech/Crewchief on CH-46E's, and I knew the Guy that is seen trying to crawl out of the crew door in that video at the bottom of the CH-46 linked page.  It happened during a deployment workup, they were practicing boat takedowns.  I think he survived.  I had another friend that was crewing a 46 that did the same thing, came in too low and hooked a main mount on the net.  This time there were a bunch of Thai brass on board during an excercise in Thailand.  The fuel door was left open after refueling so they turned around to land back on the boat and didn't quite have the power they needed to clear it.  Fortunately they ripped the main strut clean from the aircraft and landed on a stack of mattresses in Utapao. 

[mlinder]

Actually Russians constructed HUGE planes to be used for transport in the watery areas, flying over water using exacty this principle - cushioning from below. They were only prototypes, though. They never seen actual field duty.
[/quote]

And I recall -but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago and we had things to do at the office apart from listening to him - that when the helicopters were flying low, the air would "bounce" on the ground and would increase the lift of the helicopter. I guess that the principle is the same than with planes: creating a high pressure below and a low pressure above. When flying near the ground, the pressure gets higher as the virtual "air bag" below the helicopter only gets filled.
The increased lift close to the ground that you are speaking of is called Ground Effect.  We talk about whether you are In Ground Effect (HIGE) or Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) when it comes to hovering and how much weight you are able to hover with at a given altitude, temp, etc.  Every helicopter is different due to weight, dimensions, power available, etc.  When flying forward, the helicopter uses it's surfaces to create lift which is one of the reasons it takes less power at cruising speed.

Actually Russians constructed HUGE planes to be used for transport in the watery areas, flying over water using exacty this principle - cushioning from below. They were only prototypes, though. They never seen actual field duty.

And choppers are COOL to fly. I had a chance to fly with agri-cultural spraying pilots. NOE? They would be going no more that 3-4 meters off the ground (as to spray correctly). SUUUPER fun 

Found a picture of one of the russian planes on wikepidia.


I watched a history channel show on it once. Supposedly the US spy sattelites took pictures of it but we could never quite figure out what it was.
[/quote]

Wow. That thing is wicked looking.