Topic: POLL: knees in or out

[florence]

I am writing a book about motorcycling and would be very interested to know what people thought about putting knees out or down in corners.  Personally, no matter how hard I corner or how much I lean I keep my knees in, but then I'm very old fashioned.  Please let me know your thoughts...

[Gordon]

I like my knees just the way they are, so I keep them tucked in.

[S-Dog]

In for me.

[SteveD CB500F]

I've added a Poll Florence. (Knees Out for me - I'm a child of the 70's!)

Interested in your book - can you give us any more details?

[Bob Wessner]

I voted out only because at times it adds some finer control in corners. If I guessed everything right going in, knees in, so that makes it about 50/50 for me.

[ekim98]

I like my knees just the way they are, so I keep them tucked in.

+1  I vote to keep my knees in and not worn down. 

[mattcb350f]

From my enduro/motocross experience...knees in

"knees in, stay thin. Hang a knee and find a tree" 
 Matt.

[BobbyR]

I have tried both both and I keep my knees in since I gives my body more stability in the seat. I do however sick the knee out when making a tight  U turn. I don't know why, I just do it.

[clarkjh]

Always in, never had a need to put them out on the bike.

James

[jdawg]

Knees in on the street. On these old bikes (and skinny tires) you'lle never get leaned over far enough to touch a knee puck down. Unless you are hanging WAY off the bike in a very non-approved position. Meaning - showboating or exagerating. Even the latest crotch rockets riders would struggle to 'need' a knee down. Lots of them could get them down, but probably don't need them. I'd be very hesitant to put my knee down with-out a knee puck.

Racers use their knees for a couple of reasons (1) balance - you can bring your knee in and out to fine tune your lean angle (2) the knee puck is kinda like a curb feeler - you will always know where the ground is if your knee is dragging on it

I'm sure others will pipe in - this is what I remember from my 'racin' days.

[HITMAN]

Only have one good knee left, time hasn't been very good on the other one and I'm only 38 and still need it for a while longer.  Also only have one bike capable of leaning that far, and quite easily, but I quickly realized it wasn't nessesary on the street to have fun (also the pain reminded me on that right hand sweep).

Knees in for me!

[kpier883]

I haven't worked back up to a fast enough pace in the twisties to need to hang off in any way.  Probably won't as I am not as invincible as I once was.

[333]

Knees in on the street. On these old bikes (and skinny tires) you'lle never get leaned over far enough to touch a knee puck down. Unless you are hanging WAY off the bike in a very non-approved position. Meaning - showboating or exagerating. Even the latest crotch rockets riders would struggle to 'need' a knee down. Lots of them could get them down, but probably don't need them. I'd be very hesitant to put my knee down with-out a knee puck.

Racers use their knees for a couple of reasons (1) balance - you can bring your knee in and out to fine tune your lean angle (2) the knee puck is kinda like a curb feeler - you will always know where the ground is if your knee is dragging on it

I'm sure others will pipe in - this is what I remember from my 'racin' days.

It's not just a question of knees in or out, having a puck on your knee and making contact with the pavement

I haven't worked back up to a fast enough pace in the twisties to need to hang off in any way.  Probably won't as I am not as invincible as I once was.

"Hanging" is the key phrase.  Swinging a leg out (unless you have a really hefty leg) isn't enough to change much of anything.  When a racer swings a leg out and "reaches' out to the ground(with a pucked knee), he also slides his butt off the seat to the point of his other leg is hanging by the "crotch" of his knee.  THAT is enough to make a difference when taking a curve

[Rocking-M]

Ok, I been practicing hanging with a knee down.
Sliding your butt over and hanging really makes a faster pass
through a curve. It allows to shift the weight and actually not
have to lean the bike as far. Tires can only be leaned so much,
so if you get out on the side of the lean you can go faster without using
up the available tire patch and low siding. That being said, you can shift your
weight over without putting down a knee.

here is a real good ask Keith Code thread, the link takes you to a picture near the
bottom of a fellow pushing a bike down while he rides high, ie not shifting his weight,
Keith address it later on.

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=14864&page=7&pp=10

[DammitDan]

I've always been under the impression that putting a knee down is only necessary when leaning the bike over so far (and going so fast...) as to need to raise the center of gravity of the bike to keep it from sliding out from under you.

So I would think that 90% of people out there riding on the normal roads at normal road speeds are just trying to look cool by putting a knee out/down.  I would think that in reality it's actually decreasing the rider's stability in corners.

Suffice it to say, I stay tucked in

[seaweb11]

I've always been under the impression that putting a knee down is only necessary when leaning the bike over so far (and going so fast...) as to need to raise the center of gravity of the bike to keep it from sliding out from under you.

So I would think that 90% of people out there riding on the normal roads at normal road speeds are just trying to look cool by putting a knee out/down.  I would think that in reality it's actually decreasing the rider's stability in corners.

Suffice it to say, I stay tucked in

I was to lazy to type the above, but that's my take on it in a nut shell as well.

[DammitDan]

I have tried both both and I keep my knees in since I gives my body more stability in the seat. I do however sick the knee out when making a tight  U turn. I don't know why, I just do it.

Hey Bobby, next time when you're making a tight u-turn try scooting your butt to the high edge of the seat (opposite the direction you're turning) and leaning the bike under you.  I think you'll find you can put the bike almost on its' side and ride in super-tight circles 

It's a neat trick to impress the girls on the sidewalk.  Right up until you goose the throttle too much and it spins out from under you   

[oldbiker]

Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, Geoff Duke, Agostini etc always had their knees tucked in and they managed to win a few world championships.

[florence]

I agree about Mike Hailwood, he seemed to get the bike very low whilst still being tucked in.  I personally use counter steering to get my bike to lean quickly into corners and do not need to shift my body weight.  I understand that hanging off the side gives the bike an oportunity to stay more upright thereby getting more traction from the tyres and I can see how this can give an advantage on the race track but I am not sure it is necessary on the road.  However, it is very interesting to hear everyones view on this so please keep it coming.

[florence]

....about the book?  Well it's a general and practical book about all aspects of motorcycling, not just SOHC4 although the bias is towards older types of bikes so it probably won't appeal to people who ride race replica bikes on a sunday.  I will be able to tell you more when it is nearing completion.

[BobbyR]

I have tried both both and I keep my knees in since I gives my body more stability in the seat. I do however sick the knee out when making a tight  U turn. I don't know why, I just do it.

Hey Bobby, next time when you're making a tight u-turn try scooting your butt to the high edge of the seat (opposite the direction you're turning) and leaning the bike under you.  I think you'll find you can put the bike almost on its' side and ride in super-tight circles 

It's a neat trick to impress the girls on the sidewalk.  Right up until you goose the throttle too much and it spins out from under you   

Thanks Dan, I will try it. I think I will skip the spinning out from under you part.

[jdawg]

I guarantee Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, Geoff Duke, Agostini are not carrying the corner speed Hayden and the rest of the GP guys are carrying. Not saying they weren’t fast, just not at today's speeds.

[bill3749]

In. My legs are too old and too skinny to hang out. Probably get'em wrapped around something I won't like.

[ekim98]

I guarantee Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, Geoff Duke, Agostini are not carrying the corner speed Hayden and the rest of the GP guys are carrying. Not saying they weren’t fast, just not at today's speeds.

That's like compairing apples to oranges. The bikes they rode weren't in the same league as todays bikes, tires and even the tracks of today are probably better built.

[jdawg]

That's my point. They didn't need to hang off the bike cuz they wern't carrying the speed. You lean the bike over to counter act the forces wanting to stand the bike up.

Also, florence, you actually have more traction on the sidewall of a modern tire. If you look at the profile there is a much larger contact patch whilst you are on the sidewall. Racers want to get the bike back to verticle as fast as possible so they can get back to hard acceleration. It's much better to accelerate in straight line while the bike is on the peak edge of the tire vs leaned over and accelerating.

just my 2 cents more.

[ekim98]

I don't know the answer, but how much faster are the new bike actually running. Are there lap times all that much quicker. Would Hayden, Stoner or Rossi be any slower if they didn't drag a knee?? I'm just asking an honest question, not trying to start an arguement.

[tsflstb]

I don't think dragging the knee is the goal, it's just the result of carrying a ton of corner speed and lean angle.  The rider shifts his weight (hangs off) to aid in turning.  The knee goes out for a little stability and to possibly catch a front end that's washing out.  If you look at professional racers, they're not trying nearly as hard to put the knee down as some of the weekend warriors on the street.



Even Ago and those guys shifted their weight around - they only "sit" on the seat on a long straightaway.  They carry their weight through the balls of their feet on the pegs so they can slide forwards, backwards, side-to-side.  Most of us do this without realizing it - that's why your legs are so sore after a good ride.

Anyway, my answer is "sometimes".  I live near a big school parking lot that serves as my test track on the weekends (if nobody's around).  I've got some good 20-30 mph turns laid out that are perfect for the 400.  I definitely get around faster when I hang a cheek off the seat, but putting the knee out doesn't really help at those speeds.  I don't have anywhere near the amount of skill to push the front or slide the rear tire in a controlled manner, so I doubt I ever will do it.

These guys make me want to try though:

[youtube=425,350]iVExD-Fz688&rel=1[/youtube]

[bwaller]

On thing for sure, it takes clip-ons, rear sets and something other than a K model bench style seat to allow a rider to be "horizontal enough" to get his knee anywhere near the ashphalt deep in a turn. Otherwise it just looks a little goofy!

[cben750f0]

Knee out, i feel like a dud when i do it, but its either that or my pipe dragging on the ground.... or i could go slower..... NOPE looks like i stay with my knee out!!...


peace

[GoatBaSS]

Knees in, squeezing the tank, similar to riding a horse with no saddle.

[eldar]

Knees in man. The 750 will never need a knee out. If your pipe drags, you need a better fitting pipe!
I also shift my weight and stay upright while leaning the bike over in slow turns. I even do it on faster turns and ride them just fine. I learned that in my dirt bike days. Stay on the balls of your feet and lean the bike. Sure if I was on a rocket on a track, then MAYBE that would not work. But I am on a cb750 and as such will work just as good as a knee out. Probably even better as I do not need to shift my weight AND the bikes weight so I bet quick corners would be faster this way.

[754]

I like girls with Knees out...

[oldbiker]

So, those guys didn't carry the corner speed of the modern racers!!! That was more because they didn't have the rubber to do it.
I was on the track from 1956 to 1987 on all types of rubber including the triangular profile tyres. To show the development in rubber, I remember the top International boys getting round Mallory park for the first time on 500cc bikes in One minute. In 1987 I as a National rider was getting round Mallory on a 250cc bike in 57.4 secs. That wasn't my great riding but the better rubber. 
Knees out has one major benefit in racing. You can feel your angle better and as someone else said, if you start to lose the front you can often save it with a good push of the knee.

[CrisPDuk]

These guys make me want to try though:

[youtube=425,350]iVExD-Fz688&rel=1[/youtube]

Those guys are just nuts

But three up, and five up, knees out on the corner, does look cool in a wierd kinda way

[CrisPDuk]

Oh yeah, Knees in

At home in the UK neither the 550 or the H100 will lean that far

And here in Thailand, you keep all limbs as close to the bike's centreline as you can, otherwise some bugger will knock it off

[DarkRider]

given my body size i find it more natural to go knee out in a turn. shifts just enough weight without hanging right off the side...so in the case of someone smaller it may not work that way for you but when one considers im almost 80% of the bikes weight knee out tends to make things go round pretty fast.