Author Topic: Advice for a first street two-stroke?  (Read 3898 times)

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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« on: November 01, 2007, 06:29:22 PM »
Well, sorta a first two-stroke.  I've got a Hodaka 125 Wombat enduro with plates, but it's a pure dirtbike with some lights on it.  I love it.

Well that little Wombat has lit the two-stroke fire in me and now I am kicking the idea around of getting a "real" street two-stroke.

So far I've narrowed down the choices I would buy to one each of the "big three" two-stroke makers in the '70s. 

Yamaha RD350: Was advised this is the best choice.  Awesome parts availability, aftermarket resources and it's an excellent balance of power, handling and braking.  Was also told it was a better choice than the RD400 since it was more "balanced" than the RD400.  Fairly available and affordable, at least compared to the Kawasakis.

Suzuki GT380: I hear it's sort of a "plusher", softer two-stroke.  I've also heard parts availability is not so good and they seize center pistons.  I LOVE the odd four-pipe exhaust with the lower two pipes for the center cylinder being 1/2 the size of the top pipes. Also more affordable than the Kwackers.

Kawasaki H2 750: Self-explanatory.  THE bad-boy two-stroke of the '70s.  Wicked acceleration but scary handling.  Amazing reputation  Expensive to buy and parts are expensive and rare and I hear the maintenance can be demanding.  I DO love the off-balance exhaust pipes though.  Cost and parts availability is probably the only thing really holding me back on this one. 

Kawasaki H1 500: A "fall back" if I can't find a good H2.  A consolation pick only.  I hear the same things apply to this one as the H2, except not as awesome in the power department.

So, of the above choices, can anyone advise me on the ups and downs of each model that I don't know about, and which of the above would be a good bike.  A toy only, the Hondas are my daily bikes.

Offline azuredesign

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 07:04:21 PM »
I loved the GT380 I had back in the late '70's, with it's 6 speed tranny it was an excellent bike to go between my place in Western MA, and my girlfriend's in Truro every week. That being said, I agree that parts are more difficult to come by than the RD350. I rode a few of these back in the day, and they were silly quick little bikes. For back roads they're pretty darned slick, I don't think you would want to take it out on the interstate though. Be prepared  as gas milage on those bikes was fairly poor, around 30-35 MPG.

I wonder if there are more parts for the water buffalo(750) which is a kind of cool and unique bike as well.

The H bikes were very quick in the day. I'm not familiar with the H-2 which probably benefited from the H-1's failings. I rode several 500s fairly hard and dragged one that was sponsered. On the street, brakes and frame flex were something you had to get used to.

Good luck!

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 07:18:11 PM »
You need to hook up with Gordon (Ilbikes). He has a stable with some very tasty Kawi triples.
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Offline kirkn

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 09:13:48 AM »
Yep, you summed it up - RDs were downright hooligan bikes, before the term was coined.  But, very, very well engineered, especially at the end of the evolutionary run (late 70s RD400s) and well-supported today.

Another possibility here would be the '84 & '85 RZ350.  Liquid-cooled, catalytic converted equipped exhaust, powervalve equipped motor - the highest tech 2-stroke street bike, right before they disappeared from US streets forever.

The Suzuki triples were much plusher/refined in all displacement categories - 380, 550 & 750.  Watercooled 750s have a downright fanatical following nowadays.  Clubs abound.

Kawi triples were crude, rude, and socially unacceptable!   ;D

You pays your money and you makes your choice!


BTW - I'm restoring a Hodaka 250S/L right now.  The biggest of the Hodies at the end of their run, too.

Good Luck,

Kirk

Offline mlinder

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 09:46:10 AM »
Bridgestone gtr350.

http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/article/view/bridgestone350gtr/

Can be made very fast, with proper porting.
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Offline my78k

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 09:48:28 AM »
Not as familiar with the 70's 2 strokers but will say that my bro had a RG500 Gamma back in the day and that little scott was absolutely insane!!!! Probably the quickest bike I have ever sat on!!! Too bad he blew the motor in it! That thing would eat EVERYTHING we raced!

Dennis

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 09:55:55 AM »
I was at a bike shop in Florida owned by some family friends who specialize in old Hondas.  In the shop was an Honda NS400R triple.  It's later than I usually like and had the blocky '80s styling, but I fell in love with it.  I HAD to have it.  I doubt he'll sell it since it was a non-US model, (as usual, the rest of the world gets the coolest bikes), and it was grey-market imported from Canada sometime in the past and it is on a valid FL title and is "street-legal".

I WANT THAT BIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!

But since that will probably not happen, I'm thinking of the '70s classics.

Offline Aaron J Williams

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 02:42:12 PM »
When I was a kid my buddy had an RD350 which we pounded the hell out of and it kept on taking it, Very fun and dependable. I now have a GT550 which is also fun but not super fast. It handles fine and sounds cool with the stock exhaust. The only thing I don't like is the 3 sets of points that have to be messed with occasionally. If I could find electronic ignition for it, it would be a great bike. The gauge bezels tended to cloud up on the GT series bikes too so expect to polish them out or try finding a NOS set. I personally like the GT750 water buffalo. It's unique and can be powerful with the right tweaking, there are a lot of people with parts, and it's liquid cooled. I'm building one into a chopper right now and I'll give you a ride report next spring.
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 07:25:47 PM »
GG, I've had several different bikes from the late sixties and early/mid 70's growing up and today own several different models. I must admit - I don't like any two stroke more than my CB500 Four or my TX650 Yamaha. Your choice depends on just how and why you're going to ride it. I'm 5' 11" and a muscular 240 and here is how I sum them up -

1) R5,BC and RD350 Yamahas - great little bikes. Way too small for the average 200 lb fellow - it looks like a minibike under me.
2) GT380 - a refined and very comfortable little bike - feels larger than the Yam, but slower - it doesn't like those pounds and both the Yam and Honda 350's will beat it.
3) GT550 - my absolute all-time favorite Suk. It's heavy, but very streetable. It makes about the same power as the CB500 Four and without the sound - you'd think it was a four stroke - Suzuki did a great job of tuning these for torque and smoothness. Just don't look for any power bands - I've had two of them and never found one:)
4) Kaw H1 500 - these are a blast to drive. I really like the 500's better than the H2's. I currently have 5, but I've restored 5 H2's and 5 H1's. The 500 had the largest "port area to cylinder ratio" of any production motorcycle back in 1969. There is nothing that howls and hits like the 500's. Yes, the H2 has more low-end power and is easier around town - but if it's "rush and powerbands" you want - the Mach III is the holy grail. They are noisy, they love gas, they are less forgiving down low than anything you've ever riden. - you'll have to pick your gears - but at 5,500 rpm to 9,000 there is no better music than three carbs sucking mass quantities of air and the odd, three pipes puffing smoke and winding up like a jet engine. Any 500 in good shape will start pulling the front off the ground at 5,500. For a "perfect" streetable 500 - get the 1976 KH500. It's easily the most refined and best handler of the entire series. Kaw spent a lot of money and resources designing the new KH500 frame - the same year the EPA pulled the plug on gas-guzzling, smoking, noisy larger two strokes - the 1975 H2 had a short run of less than 5,000 and the KH500 met it's last run in 1976.
5) H2 - 750 Mach IV. I have 3, one stock 1974, one stock 1975, and one very modified 1974 dragger. I don't like them. They don't have the "hit" the H1's do. Yes, they are faster and they are easier to ride than the H1 around town - gear selection is not as critical. You can pull out of corners at 3,000 easily. It will snatch the front off the ground violently in the first 2-3 gears at 5,000 and above - but where the 500's will spin to 9,000 - the 750 signs off before 8,000. You don't get the howl and the long- wonderful rush of power over 4,000 rpm. The 750 is like a diesel is the way I'd put it - lots of grunt, lots of power - but signs off early. That 500 just gets my juices going.
6) If you plan to modify one to serious power - be forwarned. They quit being fun to ride. I sent my green bike's engine to LRE in NY and have an engine that will make 161hp at the crank - but it does nothing below 6,500 and it's unridable above 7,500 in anything but the top 2 gears and by then you're going stupid fast - so my advice is to leave it alone. I regret it big-time because I can't let anyone ride it and I'm walking a fine line of getting hurt if I do ride. You simply can't get off the gas quick enough or you have tire slip because you can put enough tire in the back - bad move  :(
7) Suk GT750 - what can I say - if you want the Goldwing of two strokes - this is the bike. Water cooled, stone reliable, smooth, power down low - in the middle, up top. It will remind you a CB750 it's that versatile.

** If you are wanting investments - something you can enjoy for 10-15 years and plan to sell them as I do when I get too old to ride - go for the Gamma, H2, H2A,B, and especially the C - it's the most rare of all 750 Kaw triples. These will let you enjoy now and get all of your money back + more later. Don't screw them up and keep the original pieces. Modified bikes normally bring 50% of what the original condition bike will. If it's cut-up and drastically altered - figure it's worthless as an investment. You better frame those as art - it's about all you get.

I hope I've helped. Again, I don't dislike them - I just love my mellow valved 4 strokes more.

Gordon
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 07:31:22 PM by Ilbikes »
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 09:58:06 PM »
There's actually a KH500 available near me, but it doesn't have a title and it'll need EVERYTHING.  It's a basket case.  The only thing is has going is it has all the, (beat up), original parts and compression of 140-150 pounds in each cylinder.

What I want is a street bike that is affordable, has the "ring-a-ding-ding" and blue smoke exhaust of a two-stroke.  Based on what you said, I've narrowed it down to two choices: the RD350 and the H1 Mach III. 

The RD because they're cheaper than the Kawasakis and I like that.  But you mentioned the powerband on the Mach III.

After riding the two-stroke Hodakas, I LOVE powerbands.  Especially ones that come on like a lightswitch.  If a bike makes say, 65hp, I want it to have five horsepower below 5,000rpm and get the other 60 at 5,000 rpm and carry it all the way to redline.  I want that power to hit like a sledgehammer and lift the front wheel.  I want it to be docile and dead when "off" the powerband and an absolute monster when on it.  I want it to be WILD to where you don't crack the throttle mid-corner because if you do, it'll get all out of shape and hurt you.  A total hooligan bike that is not for the faint of heart and will hurt the tyro.

So the 500 sounds like what I want.  And I want the scary-handling, frame-flexing, three-steering-damper, drum-braked version. 

What about the auto-oilers in them?  I hear they are finicky and most owners just run pre-mix.  That's one thing I hear is better about the Yamahas, they have better oiling systems.

Offline DarkRider

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 10:16:26 PM »
So gordon...you are saying the H2 is more forgiving to someone thats unused to two strokes? I know its a moot question given i have its wild lil brother the S2 but just had to ask..
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2007, 05:17:17 AM »
GG, the 500 Mach III is your bike. They aren't bad handlers for their period. They have a bad reputation and they did out-power the frames and braking available at the time. If you were to put it's 60 horses in a CB350 of 1969 vintage, magazines would be writing death warnings about them too. Simply put -these 500's were listed as "Superbikes" and journalist feared them. I'll post a copy of 1970's Cycle World testing to illustrate it's reputation. The RD350's are nimble, but nowhere near the Mach III's class - not in first gear, not in any. The RD350 will not howl and will not come anywhere near the smile meter as the 500.

Here is the stats comparison -
R5C - 36 horses
RD350 - 39 horses
GT380 - 37 horses
GT550 - 50 horses
Mach III - 60 horses

I'll try to find a video of a stock 1971. It's a homemade movie posted on You-Tube, but ask yourself what RD, GT, or CBwould ever leave a burnout like this little 500....awesome for 1971.

Outlaw - the Mach IV was built to be a superbike. The 1972/73 when introduced beat it's Z1 big brother in everything 1/4 mile and road race. But, it also gave milder performance than the 500's in it's displacement. Figure 750 cc compared to 500 - If the 750 had been built to the specs of the 500, it would make 90 horses (30 per 250 cc) and not it's actual 74. The engineers at the time felt 90 horsepower was not needed and the frame, brakes, and public weren't ready for it - they spread the power down lower and left the "wild" ports to the Mach III's. The 500 is an awesome machine for it's time and is the only stock bike with the powerband to back it up. Now, I assure you that with a litttle porting and good pipes and carbs - the H2 will move it's personality to a much nastier disposition.

Gordon

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 05:25:45 AM »
Ahhh - here it is. Look for the burnout at the end - a simple little 500--- ;D ;D ;D


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Offline DarkRider

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 06:08:59 AM »
Gordon thank you for clearing that up...wasnt sure if i was reading what you were saying correctly or not. Its still up in the air as to what im doing with my Mach IV at this point but im heavily leaning towards making use of the suspension thats under my 84 parts interceptor on a custom frame..which since it will be a modern version of the stock part with bracing would allow me to build a hotter 750 engine.
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so, you say just tie myself on with this... and steer w/ this?   ;D ;D  ok.  where's my goggles?   8)


Offline Dennis

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2007, 01:25:40 AM »
I have a '73 RD350 all original except for the BT45 tires. It's fast, it's a lot of fun and I love it. Gets as much attention as my CB750F when it's standing still. Actually sometimes when it's moving and someone recognizes that 2 stroke wail.
Well I thought it was fast until I got an RZ350 ('84) ported, chambers, whatever, I bought it that way. Handles reasonable well, scary quick! Unbelievably scary quick!!! Pulls right through red line but still has good low end with the power valve. Definitely NOT '70's styling though.

Offline mark

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2007, 08:30:51 PM »
About a quarter century ago, I had a Suzuki T-350 . My buddy down the street had a T-500 . Light, simple, and plenty fast enough. Randy sold the 500 and got an RD400 . Mark traded the 350 for a pickup.
It looked a lot like this one:


I might get another if a deal came along......


Happy trails.


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F you mark...... F you.

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Re: Advice for a first street two-stroke?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2007, 01:06:27 PM »
I have a 1974 RD350, great bike and there are so many parts out there for it. Don't forget about the Suzuki GT500's, I have a 1976 and it's a great bike, very light and runs fantastic, they also have good parts availability.


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