Topic: 550 k1 - 2&3 not firing after running fine-ish(coil/wiring, not points)

[turin39789]

 

Here's the thread where i started to deal with this before - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=25845.0

I had a problem where my bike was running fine, then while riding I would randomly lose power/hit a flat spot/run on two cylinders for a second or two, then the bike would come back to life.  It got progressively worse until it became a semi permanent situation.  As it worsened it seemed to happen randomly, suddenly losing power and topping out at 50 mph on a flat slope, after running for 10 minutes or right after startup etc.  I hadn't done much since buying it, and it's my first bike.

I changed the plugs.
I began to mess with timing and points, but it was dark so I mostly started to measure and everything seemed ok and then closed it up.
I pulled the tank, got a wild hair one day and pulled the carbs.
I took off the bowls, took out the jets and replaced everything rubber and carb cleaned it a bit but no soak. 

Got it back together, and the bike has been running fine for a few weeks.  It still wasn't running at a full 100%, seemed slightly more sluggish, not quite as willing to run up to the top of the gears, but made some 100 mile trips on it.

Starting yesterday or a few days ago, it started surging again.  Today on my way home it crapped out on the highway, speed limit 55, and kept me going too slow for comfort 45-55 depending on the grade.  For the past few days it ran bad for a few seconds, then came back.  Some runs it would run fine the entire time.  Tonight it went bad on the highway and stayed bad until I got it home.  I'm sure it'll be running ok again.

If I was correct last time, once it started running bad all the time, I started it up and kept some throttle to keep it running and it seemed like two of the pipes were cold.  I'm pretty sure my petcock is kinda messed up, so I've already ordered a new one.  My secret hope is that is the problem, that the petcock is cutting off gas to two cylinders and if my local dealership can actually get the petcock in I'll be set next week.

Does this problem sound like anything specific to anyone?  Just got a new jacket without holes and everything in it too.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Do you know which two cylinders are cutting out?  If it's 1&4 or 2&3 then concentrate on ignition.  Could be an over-heated coil.  Is the weather unusually warm the past few days?

[turin39789]

No, It's been around 30-40 degrees.

Heres a blurb from the old thread - "Flash touched the pipes after a run around the neighborhood.  The two outside pipes were both hot hot hot, the two inside were warm, but I could leave my hand on them for a few seconds without searing it.  I'm willing to believe they aren't firing, I just need to figure out why." 

This time the bike hasnt started poorly yet, always during a run so all pipes would be hot.  I'll re-check that when and if it happens.

[turin39789]

Opportunity presents itself.  I got on the bike this morning with my new jacket.  It's still running as bad as it was last night, so the problem doesn't seem to be intermittent anymore.  The two inside cylinders, 2 & 3 are cold as can be, I had the bike idling with some throttle and the outside pipes were warming right up.

So it appears that my 2 & 3 started to intermittently stop firing and then stopped alltogether.  I changed the plugs and cleaned up the carbs and they were back for a few weeks.  Now they have intermittently stopped firing and now seem to have stopped alltogether. 

I'v got a new petcock and carb insulators on their way, anything else I need to order?  Is this bad points?  I'll try to get the plugs pulled this weekend and see what the new ones are looking like.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Two cylinders that share a coil dropping out together like that strongly suggests ignition.  Check the 2.3 points (right side) for proper gap and make sure they are clean and shiny.  Follow it's wire (yellow?) to the coil.  Make sure the wire isn't broken or shorted out.

Another trick you can try is to swap the blue/yellow wires at the points, swap the #1 & #2 plug wires and swap the #3 & #4 plug wires.  Fire her up again and see if maybe the outside cylinders are now cold.  This will confirm the issue is somewhere in your ignition.

[Somemonkey]

Opportunity presents itself.  I got on the bike this morning with my new jacket.  It's still running as bad as it was last night, so the problem doesn't seem to be intermittent anymore.  The two inside cylinders, 2 & 3 are cold as can be, I had the bike idling with some throttle and the outside pipes were warming right up.

So it appears that my 2 & 3 started to intermittently stop firing and then stopped alltogether.  I changed the plugs and cleaned up the carbs and they were back for a few weeks.  Now they have intermittently stopped firing and now seem to have stopped alltogether. 

I'v got a new petcock and carb insulators on their way, anything else I need to order?  Is this bad points?  I'll try to get the plugs pulled this weekend and see what the new ones are looking like.

I agree that it's probably the points and/or condensers. I just picked up a brand new set of points and condensers from Z1 for my 550 for under $40. You may want to do the same. They're easy to install and totally worth the investment. I was having the same issues you are having and now my bike runs like a champ.

[turin39789]

Opportunity presents itself.  I got on the bike this morning with my new jacket.  It's still running as bad as it was last night, so the problem doesn't seem to be intermittent anymore.  The two inside cylinders, 2 & 3 are cold as can be, I had the bike idling with some throttle and the outside pipes were warming right up.

So it appears that my 2 & 3 started to intermittently stop firing and then stopped alltogether.  I changed the plugs and cleaned up the carbs and they were back for a few weeks.  Now they have intermittently stopped firing and now seem to have stopped alltogether. 

I'v got a new petcock and carb insulators on their way, anything else I need to order?  Is this bad points?  I'll try to get the plugs pulled this weekend and see what the new ones are looking like.

I agree that it's probably the points and/or condensers. I just picked up a brand new set of points and condensers from Z1 for my 550 for under $40. You may want to do the same. They're easy to install and totally worth the investment. I was having the same issues you are having and now my bike runs like a champ.

I was just shopping around!  Would it be worth it to get an entire oem assembly (30200-323-154) for ~$75 if my local dealer can get them?

I don't have a points file, but I'm going to try to get the gap checked and set this weekend until I can get the new ones in.  I'm self teaching myself and adjusting the points, valves and timing on my old car took me far longer than it should have when I did it, but I got it eventually.  I'll probably do the same with the bike, do everything backwards once or twice until I get it.

What size socket do I need to turn the crankcase when adjusting the points?  I'd rather do it right instead of messing with a crescent wrench/vice grips on the soft metal.

Thanks guys! 

edit - also wondering if this would be a good time to upgrade the ignition.  Dyna seems kinda pricey - close to 400, so I think I'll get my regular points working well and then look into a hondaman.  I need new tires too so I should pobably stop stretching the budget this close to christmas time, but I love to make the bike run better.

[Somemonkey]

I was just shopping around!  Would it be worth it to get an entire oem assembly (30200-323-154) for ~$75 if my local dealer can get them?

I don't have a points file, but I'm going to try to get the gap checked and set this weekend until I can get the new ones in.  I'm self teaching myself and adjusting the points, valves and timing on my old car took me far longer than it should have when I did it, but I got it eventually.  I'll probably do the same with the bike, do everything backwards once or twice until I get it.

What size socket do I need to turn the crankcase when adjusting the points?  I'd rather do it right instead of messing with a crescent wrench/vice grips on the soft metal.

Thanks guys! 

edit - also wondering if this would be a good time to upgrade the ignition.  Dyna seems kinda pricey - close to 400, so I think I'll get my regular points working well and then look into a hondaman.  I need new tires too so I should pobably stop stretching the budget this close to christmas time, but I love to make the bike run better.

I think the socket size is 23mm or 24mm. I don't have a socket large enough so I was using the second largest Standard socket I have. It's not an exact fit but it works.

You can get the entire points breaker assembly from Z1 for $38.44 plus about $6 for shipping. Check them out at http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1330
I thought about changing my ignition over as well but I found it much too expensive an upgrade. Maybe some day but not today.

[turin39789]

I was just shopping around!  Would it be worth it to get an entire oem assembly (30200-323-154) for ~$75 if my local dealer can get them?

I don't have a points file, but I'm going to try to get the gap checked and set this weekend until I can get the new ones in.  I'm self teaching myself and adjusting the points, valves and timing on my old car took me far longer than it should have when I did it, but I got it eventually.  I'll probably do the same with the bike, do everything backwards once or twice until I get it.

What size socket do I need to turn the crankcase when adjusting the points?  I'd rather do it right instead of messing with a crescent wrench/vice grips on the soft metal.

Thanks guys! 

edit - also wondering if this would be a good time to upgrade the ignition.  Dyna seems kinda pricey - close to 400, so I think I'll get my regular points working well and then look into a hondaman.  I need new tires too so I should pobably stop stretching the budget this close to christmas time, but I love to make the bike run better.

I think the socket size is 23mm or 24mm. I don't have a socket large enough so I was using the second largest Standard socket I have. It's not an exact fit but it works.

You can get the entire points breaker assembly from Z1 for $38.44 plus about $6 for shipping. Check them out at http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1330
I thought about changing my ignition over as well but I found it much too expensive an upgrade. Maybe some day but not today.

Thanks!  I was browsing z1 by model and the only thing coming up were dyna systems.  Guess I need to find a new way to browse their site.

Just tried browsing by honda category and found the points and condensers but not the full assembly.  Frustrating because I've wanted to order from him before as I understand he's a forum member, but couldn't find it.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

For a points file, I use a metal fingernail file (not the cardboard ones as they are silicon-based and can actualy promote pitting).  Neat thing about them is you can snap off the last half inch and have a fresh file!

Your current points may be fine.  To know for sure, you need to factor in gap and dwell to know if you have enough cam follower and points contact material left to maintain the correct geometries.  I'm guessing as I'm no expert.

If you can budget it in, get a fresh set of point, condensers.  Points plate - maybe.  Strongly consider Hondaman's 4M device (Marks's Miracle Motorcycle Module) as your new points will be the last points you will ever need to buy.  Maybe your great-grandchild will have to replace them, but you won't.  Take care to lube the cam follower of your new points to slow their erosion.  The 4M device will see to it that erosion of the points contact material itself will slow, and considerably!

[turin39789]

For a points file, I use a metal fingernail file (not the cardboard ones as they are silicon-based and can actualy promote pitting).  Neat thing about them is you can snap off the last half inch and have a fresh file!

Your current points may be fine.  To know for sure, you need to factor in gap and dwell to know if you have enough cam follower and points contact material left to maintain the correct geometries.  I'm guessing as I'm no expert.

If you can budget it in, get a fresh set of point, condensers.  Points plate - maybe.  Strongly consider Hondaman's 4M device (Marks's Miracle Motorcycle Module) as your new points will be the last points you will ever need to buy.  Maybe your great-grandchild will have to replace them, but you won't.  Take care to lube the cam follower of your new points to slow their erosion.  The 4M device will see to it that erosion of the points contact material itself will slow, and considerably!

Went ahead and ordered an entire new assembly for $44 shipped from Z1. 

Since hondamans till uses the points and isnt a complete electronic replacement, it's my understanding that you want the basic system to be functioning well to begin with.  I might throw the 4m system on my christmas-wish list, but most of my family usually chickens out on auto/bike gifts even if I tell them exactly where to buy them from.

[turin39789]

My points are kinda ugly, but they were pretty close to right.  Got 2-3 gapped a bit better but no change. 

Started to try to figure out how to swap blue and yellow wires, but blue was kinda short, so instead I worked on figuring out where the coil was.  After the fun procedure of removing a saddlebag so that I can get the seat open so that I can get the gas tank off, and tracing the wire to the coil, jingling/pressing on it a bit at the connections, I started the bike up and 2-3 are firing again.  Idling better/closer to 1000 with the point adjustment, I've got some pics I'll throw up soon.

Bad coil or Bad wire?  The new points assembly won't hurt but it looks like it wasn't my problem.  The wiring is kinda ugly on this bike, but I'm hesitant to run a new wire as the one on the bike has a variety of insulators and protectors that the wire runs through and it seems that trying to just clip it off and replace it with some 12 gauge from home depot.

[turin39789]

Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2007-11-11



Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2007-11-11



Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2007-11-11



Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2007-11-11

[turin39789]

bueller?

[TwoTired]

After the fun procedure of removing a saddlebag so that I can get the seat open so that I can get the gas tank off, and tracing the wire to the coil, jingling/pressing on it a bit at the connections, I started the bike up and 2-3 are firing again.  Idling better/closer to 1000 with the point adjustment, I've got some pics I'll throw up soon.

If you can wiggle wires to change operation, then you're close to finding the problem.  I suspect you have some corroded or weak connections.  Unplug them and clean the terminals.  Then make sure the males and females fit tightly together.  Concentrate on the blue and yellow wire connections, as well as the Black/White.
Don't replace the wire unless you find irreparable damage. Honda used high strand count wire that you will unlikely find at local hardware stores.  Honda wire resists vibration fatigue.