Author Topic: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.  (Read 8814 times)

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Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2007, 04:25:31 PM »
Thanks Raul, so with your extensive library, can you please post the correct weights and BHP figures for both bikes? (standard bikes thanks, with factory gearing etc)

I suspect strongly that Mlinder is making up his "specs" as he goes along. It's almost as if "Silicon Doc" had come back to pay us a visit.............  ::)

Prepare to eat crow.
Course, you always backpedal or dismiss crap you don't agree with anyway, regardless of material.

Why don't you ask hondaman what the 1/4 mile times were for cb750's? You gonna say he's pulling those out of his ass, too?


No, I believe Mark, but I've been reading some of your recent posts, and I doubt your credibility entirely.  How's that crow coming along?  ;D

What posts are you talking about?
It's Mark who is giving me the ideas I need to build a 12k rpm cb750.

Raul has the tech sheets. It's seriously not worth my time to go find and post 10 or more links to specifications for the two bikes in question.
You'd dismiss them anyway. Hopefully you'll believe someone else that posts specs.

/edit: your doubt has zero impact on my credibility. Your attitude has has quite a bit on your own.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:27:07 PM by mlinder »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2007, 04:28:49 PM »
So you're backing out? How unusual..................  ::)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2007, 04:34:45 PM »
So you're backing out? How unusual..................  ::)

What?
wtf are you talking about?
I stand by my statements.
And what have i backed out form before? You talk a metric #$%*-ton of crap.
If you really want me to find and post the #$%*, I will. How bout I PM them to you so we stop cluttering up this poor guys thread with e-peen comparisons?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:36:53 PM by mlinder »
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2007, 05:12:06 PM »
Well, unfortunately some of my books talk about the Z650 (KZ650 in the States) but none of the authors deemed the bike important enough to deserve the space needed for its specifications. No wonder, bikes about books tend to talk about ground-breaking bikes, and I have plenty of CB750 books and mentions in some other books.


Now is when all the time that I spent scanning my Classic&Motorcycle Mechanics prove useful. I made a search and found some things. First, to prove my point, there are differences in the specifications.... in different issues of the same magazine! Sure, you will say one is the Z650 and the other is the Z650B1. IF I'm not wrong there was no difference in the engine, but seems that the torque is different. Which one is right? If you convert the units, also wheelbase and other measures change.

Anyway, another article speaks about how good the Z650 was compared with its contemporaries. And finally, in a CB650 article, the comparisons with other bikes in the same range. How trustworthy are those figures? I leave it to your judgment.

In my opinion, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter what the figures what. It doesn't take a genius to say that a Z1 would outrun a CB400F, but with those bikes, only first-hand experience can tell the difference, and if Terry tried both at the time that's something that no reputed magazine or book can take away from him.


mlinder, don't fall on Terry's catch. He is always trying to get somebody into a war of words. I fell once or twice but not anymore.....  ;D  He is damn good at making logical statements, and even better at irony!!!!! If you try to find a flaw in his logic you will end up proved wrong, even if you are right...

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2007, 05:19:11 PM »
Thanks for posting those, raul.
They mirror what I linked to him in a PM. (though there is a 12.9 1/4 in there. I don't doubt they ran that. Also see some dry weights listed as low as 465lbs on some.)
I'm not trying to take anything away form him. I just have the habit of pointing out to people when they are wrong.
Terry is no mental giant, and his word-wars are puerile at best. He just floats away when he's wrong with a closing cheap shot.
Only person he's impressing is himself.
In any case, I'd love to have a KZ650. I know it's one of the top handlers of it's time. I've ridden one too. Comparatively speaking, it makes the CB750 feel like a canoe.
If I could find a reasonable one in the area, I'd get one, and likely ride it more than my CB, if nothing else than for its handling characteristics.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 05:26:09 PM by mlinder »
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Offline 754

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2007, 07:15:34 PM »
I based my observation on things I saw at the track...

A guy I know has an 80,s Kawi 750 in his chopper (used to be kz 650) that ran low 11,s..stock motor..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2007, 11:41:49 PM »


What?
wtf are you talking about?
I stand by my statements.
And what have i backed out form before? You talk a metric #$%*-ton of crap.
If you really want me to find and post the #$%*, I will. How bout I PM them to you so we stop cluttering up this poor guys thread with e-peen comparisons?
[/quote]

Well thanks for sending me those stats mate, but they support what I already knew, that the Kawa 650 was lighter and faster than the CB750.

I'm surprised that someone like yourself who boasts 30 years of roadracing doesn't seem to know a heck of a lot about bikes of the era, apart from what you've read? What were you racing, a bicycle? ;D

« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 12:25:13 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2007, 12:00:35 AM »
Terry, you have just proved mlinder right with that "closing cheap shot".....  :)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2007, 12:26:44 AM »
Terry, you have just proved mlinder right with that "closing cheap shot".....  :)

Ha ha, well he's gotta be right sometime mate! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2007, 06:22:57 AM »



What?
wtf are you talking about?
I stand by my statements.
And what have i backed out form before? You talk a metric #$%*-ton of crap.
If you really want me to find and post the #$%*, I will. How bout I PM them to you so we stop cluttering up this poor guys thread with e-peen comparisons?

Well thanks for sending me those stats mate, but they support what I already knew, that the Kawa 650 was lighter and faster than the CB750.

I'm surprised that someone like yourself who boasts 30 years of roadracing doesn't seem to know a heck of a lot about bikes of the era, apart from what you've read? What were you racing, a bicycle? ;D



You were wrong about the weight of a K0. You were wrong about the horsepower and weight of the KZ650. You were wrong about the 1/4 performance of the K0, you were wrong about the 1/4 mile of the kz650.
Only thing you were almost right about was the weight of the kz650.

You were wrong about me saying i've been roadracing for 30 years. I did not say that, only that I've been riding for that long.
You've been, for the most part, wrong about everything. Yet still insist on trying to hoodwink people into thinking you've been right.
You aren't. You're just some guy from down under who is, for the most part, wrong.
You make nebulous accusations that are mostly wrong.

Usually I don't get involved in intarweb arguments about someone personally, especially when they aren't close enough for me to offer a visit to discuss things personally.

But, you're wrong, Terry. Suck it up and swallow it down, because you're wrong.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 09:47:47 AM by mlinder »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2007, 06:46:32 AM »
No need to be calling one another names.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2007, 07:05:06 AM »
No need to be calling one another names.
Fixed. Sorry.
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Offline 754

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2007, 07:17:19 AM »
I would like to point out one thing,

The K1 and KZ650 came out about 8 yrs or more apart. Is there a chance they were both tested on the same dyno in the same conditions?? There is a chance they were not.

The horsepowers and weights are with about 3%.

Really pretty close if you ask me. CB 750's were getting whipped by Kawasakis since the earky 70,s. You win some you loose some..lets not loose sleep over it. 
I have run up against them at the tree, from what I remember they were fairly quick.. maybe it is the KZ750 I am thinking of.. at any rate.. I was speaking more of what I saw not what I read.

Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2007, 07:52:46 AM »
I would like to point out one thing,

The K1 and KZ650 came out about 8 yrs or more apart. Is there a chance they were both tested on the same dyno in the same conditions?? There is a chance they were not.

The horsepowers and weights are with about 3%.

Really pretty close if you ask me. CB 750's were getting whipped by Kawasakis since the earky 70,s. You win some you loose some..lets not loose sleep over it. 
I have run up against them at the tree, from what I remember they were fairly quick.. maybe it is the KZ750 I am thinking of.. at any rate.. I was speaking more of what I saw not what I read.



The kz750 made around 75 hp. Fast bike. The Z1 was also, obviously, faster.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2007, 12:16:18 AM »
They could kick a CB750's arse when they were released, so no reason to think they won't now. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's called "progress". Cheers, Terry. ;D

78 kz650
HP 66
weight 505 lbs

70 cb750
HP 67
weight 480 lbs

Progress is great.

Numbers are numbers, though, and there is no way the 650 is going to win the 1/4 mile in this scenario unless the CB is geared completely wrong.

Only problem with the CB 750 numbers is they are way off. friend in work has dynoed them as low as 28bhp,(averaged less than 50bhp) even though they still claimed 67 (new bikes, straight out of the crate in early 70's)
 The KZ650's seemed to put out around 50bhp. I thought they were about same weight as CB550, around 420~435
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Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2007, 07:07:55 AM »
They could kick a CB750's arse when they were released, so no reason to think they won't now. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's called "progress". Cheers, Terry. ;D

78 kz650
HP 66
weight 505 lbs

70 cb750
HP 67
weight 480 lbs

Progress is great.

Numbers are numbers, though, and there is no way the 650 is going to win the 1/4 mile in this scenario unless the CB is geared completely wrong.

Only problem with the CB 750 numbers is they are way off. friend in work has dynoed them as low as 28bhp,(averaged less than 50bhp) even though they still claimed 67 (new bikes, straight out of the crate in early 70's)
 The KZ650's seemed to put out around 50bhp. I thought they were about same weight as CB550, around 420~435

Crazypj, the K0 and K1 made as much or more than honda claimed.
I've never heard of a 28hp cb 750. Even the k4 or k5. Kawis' claimed dry weight, no oil or gas, was 465, though I saw a manufacturers claimed dry weight at over 500 for a later model.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2007, 07:55:28 AM »
I've seen the curb weights for these bikes all over the place, varying by many pounds. I have a reprint of the 1970 Honda shop manual for the K0 and it lists it as 517 lbs. Someone needs to weigh them. ;)
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline 754

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2007, 08:27:43 AM »
I have weighed my bikes at times, bathroom scale and 2x4 under the other wheel.

Weighed my truck on a closed scale one night hauling a shaper or milling machine.. 7600  is that OK for a 3/4 ton??


I think people should make real life comparisons, not just what they read.. alway fun seeing first timers at the drags!!

especially..if you ask them first what they think they will turn for times..

So I should ask everyone this, as many dont lend their bikes out and even if you do, Pee Wee may not be available to ride yours on the day you choose, and you may not live at sealevel.. how quick can your bike go in the 1/4...?? (yours not the one Honda knew was going to be scrutinized by a magazine)

Also there are some that would not run their bikes against another (in a safe place) if the opportunity arose.. and they really dont know how quick they are..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2007, 08:45:43 AM »
I weighed mine when I registered it -needed to get a technical specs. sheet. Have the scale printout somewhere in my bike folder. I recall it was something like 218 kg -sorry guys, you do the conversion...-


Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2007, 08:55:46 AM »
That's 480lbs. Wet or dry?

By the way, all this talk of KZ650's has got me hankering for one.
There's one 3 hours north of me at a good price, and a runner. I do believe I may go pick it up tonight.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 09:01:08 AM by mlinder »
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Offline 754

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2007, 09:00:01 AM »
Ok.. but if you get it and tell us it was quicker than you thought, we can still be GREEN with envy..right???   :o
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2007, 11:20:35 AM »
mlinder, I couldn't find the scale ticket, but it was written in the technical spec sheet -mandatory for every vehicle in Spain-. As my bike underwent a unitary homologation, the weight had to be measured in my bike -not like when you buy a new vehicle, that only one undergo homologation and the rest are issued a copy of the spec sheet-

It was 235 kg, that is 518.08 lbs. I drove the bike to the inspection station, so it was obviously wet, but can't tell about the fuel tank capacity.

Offline mlinder

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2007, 11:49:50 AM »
mlinder, I couldn't find the scale ticket, but it was written in the technical spec sheet -mandatory for every vehicle in Spain-. As my bike underwent a unitary homologation, the weight had to be measured in my bike -not like when you buy a new vehicle, that only one undergo homologation and the rest are issued a copy of the spec sheet-

It was 235 kg, that is 518.08 lbs. I drove the bike to the inspection station, so it was obviously wet, but can't tell about the fuel tank capacity.

Righto.
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Offline Jeff.Saunders

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2007, 09:51:17 AM »
I'm not going to get into the "discussion" around the KZ650 versus CB750.  But I do want to make a couple of comments on the KZ650.  Generally they are a very good smaller 4-cylinder bike that's a great commuter bike and/or backroads bike for a rider that isn't too heavy.  Very nimble for it's time, the bike has a well braced frame and good center of gravity.  The engine doesn't make a lot of torque, so you do have to rev the motor hard to get good power. 

Although they are similar looking to the Kawasaki Z1, the internals of the engine are worlds apart.  The KZ650 is closer to the CB750 in design than to the Z1...

The KZ650 has a plain bearing crank (shell bearings), the Z1 uses a roller bearing crank.
The KZ650 runs over 50psi oil pressure, the Z1 just 2-3 psi oil pressure.
The KZ650 has a primary chain, the Z1 has straight cut gears between the crank and clutch.
The KZ650 runs the cams directly in the aluminum of the head, the Z1 has replaceable cam bearings.
The KZ650 has the starter clutch in the middle of the engine, the Z1 has it on the end of the crank.
The KZ650 uses underbucket shims, the Z1 uses over bucket shims.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: I think this bike would take my K1 in a drag race.
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2007, 06:07:51 AM »
Me and a friend are going for a ride tommorrow and we will be taking the KZ650 and my freshly tuned K1. When we get to a remote stretch of two lane we are planning on doing some drag racing just to see which bike runs better. He thinks the KZ650 just feels quicker than my 750 because the gearing is lower so it may be quicker coming out of the hole but the 750 would always win a 1/4 mile race.
I'll post the results back tommorrow.


And I thought this horse was very well dead......  :)