Topic: New 836cc build...white smoke

[Sweep]

I've been in denial over this but it doesn't seem to get any better.  I have the CR29 carbs in relative tune and I have moisture of some sort and white smoke coming out of the Kerker header pipe.  Eventually the bike wants to bog down and die rather than keep idling.

I have Forged pistons and I thought I put the rings on right unless I put something on upside down but the instructions didn't make mention if I did.  I made sure the ring gaps were staggered as well.  I'm pretty much spot on with the timing, when timed with a light it's exactly between the || marks.  I've tightened down the exhaust a few times and I've eliminated that as the cause. 

I also have HD studs if that makes any difference.  Is this by any chance part of break in or do I have a big problem here?

[mcpuffett]

How many miles since your rebuild? could it just be burning off excess oil etc from assembly? mine did when i rebuilt it but i put that down to over oiling everything when building  , cheers mick.

[Sweep]

How many miles since your rebuild? could it just be burning off excess oil etc from assembly? mine did when i rebuilt it but i put that down to over oiling everything when building  , cheers mick.

No miles.  This was the 4th time starting it and so far I've just idled it.  I liberally squirted oil into the valve covers, maybe that's it.  I sure hope so because lugging this motor out of the frame again isn't very attractive.

[andy750]

If I were you Id go for a ride and be sure to get enough miles so you know you have burned off any excess oil....then if you STILL have white smoke you know you may have a problem. Just take it easy.....

cheers
Andy

[Sweep]

If I were you Id go for a ride and be sure to get enough miles so you know you have burned off any excess oil....then if you STILL have white smoke you know you may have a problem. Just take it easy.....

cheers
Andy

Ok, thanks.  So many steps in building this motor that I'm paranoid that any number of things can be wrong.

[mcpuffett]

I know how you feel about your rebuild,  i went through the same thing with mine "have i done this have i done that" etc just take it easy on your first run and see how it goes,  cheers mick.

[MRieck]

 I wouldn't let it just idle. Keep the revs up around 2,000 to keep your oil pressure up and put some charge in the battery.

[Sweep]

I wouldn't let it just idle. Keep the revs up around 2,000 to keep your oil pressure up and put some charge in the battery.

My trickle charger does that heh.   I've had so little time to ride lately that I always have two bikes on the charger.

[Bodain]

White smoke on an 836.... WELCOME TO MY WORLD....  <GRIN>

I have the white smoke also mine isn't light. It's massive and it's not moisture...I've had the engine out about 4 times now... The first time I pulled the engine. I decided it was exhaust valve guides.( after all this is a 78 F) $327.00 later and with the engine back in. It still smokes...

Ok Pulled the engine again.. Close examination of rings and bore. They seem to be fine. On an outside chance decided to give the clylinders a light honing... Reassemble. Still smoking....

The fact is the bike runs great. Just has massive white smoke blowing out the exhaust.. Ok. This time I let the bike run abit... Now I pull the header.. There is a good amount of wet oil in the exhaust chambers. No. 2 has huge amounts of oil in it... Hmmmm. I'm thinking ok... This has to be head gasket and or o ring seals between the head and cylinder. Yet there is no external oil leak...  I order a 836 head gasket from Dynoman.

It arrives and once again I pull the engine. Install the gasket and reassemble in bike.

The #$%* still smokes.....

I've about had it with this engine. I'm ready to melt it down and make some aluminum foil..

[TwoTired]

How many miles since your rebuild? could it just be burning off excess oil etc from assembly? mine did when i rebuilt it but i put that down to over oiling everything when building  , cheers mick.

No miles.  This was the 4th time starting it and so far I've just idled it.  I liberally squirted oil into the valve covers, maybe that's it.  I sure hope so because lugging this motor out of the frame again isn't very attractive.

Condensation in the exhaust will take time to completely vaporize.  Short runs without thorough heating of the exhaust will actually ADD water to the insides of the muffler when it cools down.  The buildup will be more rapid during periods of high humidity.
A 15-20 minute run on the freeway should vaporize all parts of the exhaust.  Idling never will, unless you're in the desert on a hot day.
Cheers,

[Sweep]

Gotcha.  I won't start it again until I can ride it, which is sometime this week when my dang chain tool arrives from Dennis Kirk.

[azuredesign]

White smoke on an 836.... WELCOME TO MY WORLD....  <GRIN>

I have the white smoke also mine isn't light. It's massive and it's not moisture...I've had the engine out about 4 times now... The first time I pulled the engine. I decided it was exhaust valve guides.( after all this is a 78 F) $327.00 later and with the engine back in. It still smokes...

Ok Pulled the engine again.. Close examination of rings and bore. They seem to be fine. On an outside chance decided to give the clylinders a light honing... Reassemble. Still smoking....

The fact is the bike runs great. Just has massive white smoke blowing out the exhaust.. Ok. This time I let the bike run abit... Now I pull the header.. There is a good amount of wet oil in the exhaust chambers. No. 2 has huge amounts of oil in it... Hmmmm. I'm thinking ok... This has to be head gasket and or o ring seals between the head and cylinder. Yet there is no external oil leak...  I order a 836 head gasket from Dynoman.

It arrives and once again I pull the engine. Install the gasket and reassemble in bike.

The #$%* still smokes.....

I've about had it with this engine. I'm ready to melt it down and make some aluminum foil..

If one of the 6 sealing washers in the head was letting oil by, wouldn't this cause similar symptoms? p/n 244171-001

[Sam Green Racing]

The Wiseco 836 pistons have a lot of flat areas on the under side of the piston.
This causes exsesive pressure build up in the motor, several people have had this problem.
We fitted extra breathers on # 2 and # 3 tappet covers and took them to a small catch that sits where the starter motor was.
Never had a problem since.

Sam.

[1976Thunder]

Listen to SamCR750 I have rebuilt my gixxer twice and my Moto Guzzi once both bikes motors where built for performance and the case pressure built up twice that of what it was in oem trim. On both of my bikes I had smoke and idleing problems. To fix this I drilled, tapped and installed catch cans on both bikes.

  Good luck

[Sweep]

The Wiseco 836 pistons have a lot of flat areas on the under side of the piston.
This causes exsesive pressure build up in the motor, several people have had this problem.
We fitted extra breathers on # 2 and # 3 tappet covers and took them to a small catch that sits where the starter motor was.
Never had a problem since.

Sam.

Sam, did you do this with the motor in the bike or did you have to pull it?

Thanks,
Sean

[Sam Green Racing]

Yes, with the motor in. Just remove the two inner inlet tappet covers, drill and thread to take a threaded tube with lock nuts.
Replace them, and push two lengths of plastic tube over them.

Sam.

[Sweep]

Yes, with the motor in. Just remove the two inner inlet tappet covers, drill and thread to take a threaded tube with lock nuts.
Replace them, and push two lengths of plastic tube over them.

Sam.

Well that sure is simple.  Thanks Sam.  I'm rather curious why others (Gordon/Sparty) haven't seemed to run into this with the same configuration.  Maybe it's a late model vs early model thing.

[Sam Green Racing]

Arts motor had the pistons modded by Mike.

Sam.

[sparty]

Arts motor had the pistons modded by Mike.

Sam.

Yes yes yes.  Mike knew of the possible issues that could arise with those pistons.  He modified the pistons and then sent them to Swain Tech for special coatings.  Building a high performance engine that works well isn't as simple as putting in new parts; some of those new parts really need some extra massaging.  Mike knows little tricks and special adaptations that need to be carefully performed so that the engine will be trouble free.  These are the things that no one ever talks about but make a world of difference.  If you look at the pistons on my build page you will see how they were shaved to achieve a perfect fit.

Sparty (Art)

[Sweep]

Arts motor had the pistons modded by Mike.

Sam.

Yes yes yes.  Mike knew of the possible issues that could arise with those pistons.  He modified the pistons and then sent them to Swain Tech for special coatings.  Building a high performance engine that works well isn't as simple as putting in new parts; some of those new parts really need some extra massaging.  Mike knows little tricks and special adaptations that need to be carefully performed so that the engine will be trouble free.  These are the things that no one ever talks about but make a world of difference.  If you look at the pistons on my build page you will see how they were shaved to achieve a perfect fit.

Sparty (Art)

Gotcha.  So go the perils of being the lone wolf.

[RRRToolSolutions]

I had the oil sealing washers leaking problem. I solved it by using Honda OEM instead of aftermarket ones - and I added Hondabond to the edges of the rubber during install. I also learned the hard way that the small 6mm studs that hold your cam tower block on must have Blue Loctite applied if removed, else they will let oil leak by and "drip" onto the sparkplugs. I also did the Carillo, heavy APE studs upper and lower the 2nd time around because I was determined not to have to go in there again until ready.

I have not had a crankcase breathing problem. I talked with Buzz and with two pistons going up and two down all of the time - the differences in piston diameters and air moving were balanced. I did install a new large-diameter tube for the seperator/breather sitting on top of the head. My engine has 500 miles on it since going back together in early May. We rode it at Deal's Gap in May and logged 140 miles in the NC mountains in one morning. I never saw smoke coming from the Kerker when I rode behind it - yes, my bike was taken from me that whole weekend - people loving the old girl.

My tappets aren't drilled and no catch-cans.

Regards,
Gordon

[Sweep]

I had the oil sealing washers leaking problem. I solved it by using Honda OEM instead of aftermarket ones - and I added Hondabond to the edges of the rubber during install. I also learned the hard way that the small 6mm studs that hold your cam tower block on must have Blue Loctite applied if removed, else they will let oil leak by and "drip" onto the sparkplugs. I also did the Carillo, heavy APE studs upper and lower the 2nd time around because I was determined not to have to go in there again until ready.

I have not had a crankcase breathing problem. I talked with Buzz and with two pistons going up and two down all of the time - the differences in piston diameters and air moving were balanced. I did install a new large-diameter tube for the seperator/breather sitting on top of the head. My engine has 500 miles on it since going back together in early May. We rode it at Deal's Gap in May and logged 140 miles in the NC mountains in one morning. I never saw smoke coming from the Kerker when I rode behind it - yes, my bike was taken from me that whole weekend - people loving the old girl.

My tappets aren't drilled and no catch-cans.

Regards,
Gordon

I did all the same as you, we'll see.  I finally have my chain in place and if all is dry enough I'll do a maiden voyage tomorrow.  If it smokes at least I have options.

[Big Jay]

If it keeps smoking out the exhaust, take the header off and start it briefly to see if the smoke is coming from all cylinders or just one.

If one or two are doing all the smoking, chances are that the oil expander ring, the center one in the oil ring has the ends overlapped instead of butting up. When this happens, there is no tension on the oil ring and it will smoke bad from that hole.

Jay

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Good point by Jay. Don't think I've seen that addressed before.

Wouldn't it be nice if you put a few miles on it, the rings seated, and it quit smoking?! Hope you're not just jumping the gun. Don't baby it too much during breakin or you might glaze the cylinder walls and the rings will never seat. That requires another tear down and cylinder hone. If this happens at least you will be able to check that your rings are installed correctly.

[Sweep]

If it keeps smoking out the exhaust, take the header off and start it briefly to see if the smoke is coming from all cylinders or just one.

If one or two are doing all the smoking, chances are that the oil expander ring, the center one in the oil ring has the ends overlapped instead of butting up. When this happens, there is no tension on the oil ring and it will smoke bad from that hole.

Jay

Thanks Jay.