Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[Bob Wessner]

I pray this upcoming election will end up being more interesting than I have a feeling it will be.

I'm with you there. You would think, considering the gang representing both parties, there would be at least one standout.

[BobbyR]

curious question to ed and company: how do you feel about military spending?

how about the roads you ride your motorcycle on? or public education, as has already been mentioned? where exactly is the bar set for "socialism" in the U.S.? i don't believe the I.R.S. even operates within constitutionally legal boundaries (not to mention income tax being incredibly regressive), nor do i like the idea of government coercion in any form. as long as i continue to exist within this civilization i will, however, voluntarily pay a portion of what i have back in order to have the things that are sensible for us to coexist comfortably. is that socialism? if so, sign me up.

it's bizarre to me how some people don't bat an eyelash at trillions of dollars in military spending at the defense of private companies-- most of which have absolutely no allegiance to this particular nation-- but think that for government to exist for the general welfare of its citizens is theft.

either you believe that all commerce and self-governance should be done without the restraint, aid or even existence of government, or you believe in taxation to support government function in some manner.  if you truly believe the former, more power to you. i do believe in self-reliance and sustainability. in that world, step on my toes, and we'll have problems, or we'll learn to equitably compromise in order to coexist. wanna try anarchism? now that takes some mutual respect, hard work,  and self-determination. if, however, you believe the latter, there is clearly just a difference in opinion as to where the money should be spent.

in my opinion, they are stealing MY money in the name of corporate imperialism. education? medicare? public works? pennies to the dollar against military spending. tell you what--pull the plug on imperialist foreign policies, excess military spending, and corporate welfare and maybe we can talk about "handouts."

by the way, looking at the issue strictly from the perspective of financial efficiency, compare administrative spending of medicare vs. private medical insurance. medicare= less than 5%. HMO's= 25-25%. where are all those skyrocketing costs of medicine?

Are any of the systems or programs that you mentioned perfect?  Our education system is a pit, our student's test scores are worse than our standard of healthcare, our roads have potholes, and our national defense is severely hampered by a bloated government and a congress that can't seem to do anything without taking a pole and posturing for whichever electorate they feel will help them keep their job.  I do not think that anyone who opposes socialized medicine does so because we want people to be unhealthy and suffer, we oppose it because we see the corruption and inefficiencies of government programs.  These programs waste our money (ever seen 5 road construction guys watching the 6th guy shovel asphalt) so we do not feel the need to give them more.  Why not work towards people helping others to get back on their feet and not giving the government one more way to waste money.

I had more, but deleted it.  Socialism is simply when the government is taking your money or possessions in order to provide for the common good as it dictates.  That is not a good thing because this removes peoples rights and places more emphasis on the government than the individual.  A republic country or a society is not made up of people serving the government which then serves the populace, rather by people who serve themselves and others with the government functioning as a higher power to solve disputes, enforce laws, and to provide for an organized national defense.  I have a view of government function that is very limited in power compared to the individual person, this to me is what the USA is about.  If the government feels that all people need healthcare, then it can look at what policies that it has that are causing problems and fix them first rather than jumping right to "we need to raise taxes so everyone can have healthcare".  The system is flawed and needs fixing, but throwing more money into the pit is not the answer.  That is all we are saying.  Helping people = good.  Giving the government more money and power to hand out to others = bad.  If giving poor people money and healthcare fixed problems we would have won the war on poverty in only a decade or two. 

Another good example is the department of agriculture.  If we took their annual budget and simply gave it to farmers, they could quit farming and be millionaires within a few short years. 

As for the military, there is tons of waste there, how about we find ways to trim the fat and keep them at full strength?  Why can't we demand spending reform from the government rather than demanding more money from the people?  Rather than get mad at "Ed and company" for being greedy bastards, why not get mad at the suit in DC pissing your money away to build a Woodstock museum or a beet museum or for a bridge to nowhere Alaska?  As pointed out earlier, the goal of politicians is to get us mad at each other rather than to take a closer look at the job that they are (not) doing.  If we really looked at what they are doing we would demand a change with our votes.

This post speaks to my point. If you read it carefully you will see the discontent I spoke about earlier. All of the waste is widely known you can hear the same words spoken in every cafe in the Country. The danger we face is that many will just become apathetic and do nothing since they feel nothing can be done. If you read the last line, those are not the words of one who is willing to give up. If enough people voice that opinion to the politicians, they will listen. Politcians count every letter they recieve as 300. If one person writes they know that at least 300 people feel that way and did not bother to write. When the numbers get high enough they know they need to do something. They may do it only to stay in office, but they do it. The vote is the voice of the people. Even our founding fathers knew that, they imposed a minumum amount of property was required to vote. When you see things you don't like, say something.

[edbikerii]

Paul, WTF are you talking about?  Education, libraries, roads, and our nation's safety are obviously not the same as welfare programs.

WELFARE PROGRAMS CREATE GENERATIONS OF DEPENDENT WELFARE ADDICTS THAT ARE INCAPABLE OF SUPPORTING THEMSELVES OR EDUCATING THEIR CHILDREN PROPERLY.

DEMOCRATS LOVE HAVING HUGE VOTING BLOCKS OF WELFARE ADDICTS WHO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS OUT OF FEAR OF LOSING THE WELFARE CHECKS THAT THEY ARE SO DEPENDENT UPON.  THIS IS THE ULTIMATE GOVERNMENT CONTROL SYSTEM.

Is anybody on this forum actually stupid enough to think democrat politicians give a damn about helping people?  Ask Hilary, who campaigned most heavily in Harlem during her election, but lives in a $20,000,000 house in Chappaqua.

EVEN BETTER FOR THE DEMOCRATS:  welfare creates lots of resentments -- both by the taxpayers who work too hard to carry the weight of the slackers, and by the recipients who believe that "The Man" is trying to "keep them down".

THE TRUTH: THE ONLY THING "KEEPING THEM DOWN" IS DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS GIVING THEM HANDOUTS.

Alright guys, all this philosophical, idealogical crap is bringing a tear to my eye.

Is it really so hard for people to understand the difference between a helping hand (until you get on your feet) and a permanent hand-out?

yeah... i wish those libraries and elementary schools would start charging people... freakin' freeloaders. 

[ofreen]

 .....I do not think that anyone who opposes socialized medicine does so because we want people to be unhealthy and suffer, we oppose it because we see the corruption and inefficiencies of government programs..... 

Good post, but this sentence boils it down to the basic issue.

[paulages]

for the record, i am certainly not a democrat. though i loath most of them, they are relatively harmless whereas most republicans promote hateful agendas that are stripping away our rights and quickly projecting us towards a fascist military state. i'm not convinced there will even be elections on 2008, with the new powers given the executive branch in the event of "emergency." i will not be at all surprised if in the course of the next year, another catastrophic event occurs, and martial law is declared. the national guard are all in iraq. who does that leave? blackwater. is this the america you want? one only needs to study history to find frightening parallels between the nazi rise to power and our current situation, privatization and a subsequent lack of accountability being high on that list.

ed- i still don't see how you make a qualitative distinction between public education and public medicine in terms of welfare. seems like you took the republican propaganda bait, hook line and sinker, convincing us to vote and fight against our own best interests. good luck with that.

SEBNN- i may not agree with all you say, but you seem to at least have the ability to reason. you're right, most of our existing public agencies do a lousy job. but the private agencies don't have to answer to the common good at all, instead deferring to a bottom line that is inhuman. the profit motive works great to create profit, but if this is its motive, its function becomes secondary. sorry, but i just don't trust the greedy bastards with my welfare (noun: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>). i was being a bit rhetorical when asking "if that's socialism..." i'm actually quite read on political ideology, and tend to believe you got it a little wrong in your definition there, but hey- i guess there's something to be said for colloquial definitions. my political ideologies (before real world pragmatism) tend to be quite libertarian, but more in the anarchist "personal liberty demands mutual respect" kind of way that the american libertarian party "i got mine" kind of way. i am no friend of government.

the compromising pragmatist in me however, sees an increasing gap between the rich and poor, a socialized corporate capitalism run amok, and a political system increasingly eating away our liberties. this side of me will gladly trade a little of my pride for the social stability granted by public welfare. more taxes? hell no, just cut off that spoiled brat defense department, let the corporations fend for themselves, and there will be plenty of money to go around.

[mark]

     Further random thoughts for your consideration and or amusement............

     For the 'privatize everything' folks........ It should warm your hearts to note that the current crop of 'universal healthcare' proposals consist mainly of requiring the uninsured to buy private insurance('It works so well for car insurance'), with subsidies if necessary. That would appear to include Hillarycare'08 . The insurance industry must be making some really impressive campaign contributions, unlike the bankers. Tell your brokers to look at insurance stocks.

     For the 'it isn't in the Constitution' folks.... Our Constitution is a unique and special document. The founders did not, however, engrave it in stone and hand it to a guy named Moses. It has been fussed with over the centuries as the nation has evolved. Many of the government's current activities and responsibilities could not have been anticipated when it was written.
     When the Constitution was written, health care meant treating fevers with leeches and sawing off your infected broken arm. You paid the doctor with a couple of chickens. Want to go back to that? It was the same for everyone.
     When the Constitution was written, thieves and worse got hanged and misdimeanors earned the perpetrator a whipping. If we went back to that, the billions of tax dollars that we spend on prisons could go toward health care. Wouldn't bother me a damn bit.
     The folks that wrote the Constitution wouldn't (publicly) let their womenfolks vote on any of it. Some of them owned other people like some sort of livestock. Times have changed.

     For the folks who have employer provided insurance.... You are paying for part of that in the form of reduced wages. The remainder is passed on to the rest of us as a hidden tax in the cost of the products and services that we purchase from your employers. We all pay that tax and most receive nothing for it. It isn't building any roads or libraries that I know of.

     We're told, for example, that health benefits add $3000 to the price of the average American car. Many of our citizens buy imports, produced in capitalist countries with socialized medicine, in part to avoid that hidden tax on our products. The foreign goods are cheaper, in part, because those companies are not paying for American-style health care. Tariffs are a nasty can of worms but we aren't really trying to play on a level field now, are we?         
     That goes for the junk we get from those gd heathen commies too.

     Welfare? Is most of the population of the industrialized world really on welfare? If you say so. Whatever.
     I think there is a difference between some basic level of medical care for everyone and that monthly check that buys crack and Cadillacs.

     True, the Govt. does seem to have some sort of brown Midas Touch, turning nearly everything it touches to she-ite. I liked the bridge to nowhere reference. $200 mil for a bridge that would serve 50 people. Why not give them all million dollar yachts and save $150m.?
     Waste? We do that. We would rather treat something major in the emergency room than provide a clinic where the minor cause could be treated.

     Taxes again? A famous zillionaire got big cheers a while back when he announced $3 billion that he was donating for medicine overseas. Would it really hurt so bad to squeeze some bucks from him and his pals so we could have medicine too? Who has multiple copies of Windows/Office and no ins.?
     If the movie star's nose job also pays for bedpans in Iowa, is that such a bad thing?

     What about the folks who are qualified for that good job with great benefits.... but the company sends the applicant to a doc for an exam and doc finds this lump.... and the company decides this person is going to be just too damn expensive to have around? What then? Drop dead?

     Lobbying... politicians... gd lawyers... bah. enough.


    Happy trails.


   

[paulages]

all i know is if #$%* falls apart, i'm going mad max with one of my bikes!  i should start fabbing some AK mounts on my cb750!

[333]

Let's get a few things straight.

Roads.  The Federal Government does not pay anything for most of the roads we normally travel(most of us).  They only pay for interstate highways, and not even 100% of that.  They pay nothing for state owned roads, no subsidies, no nothing.  And being familiar with a couple of construction jobs on the interstates in the last couple of years, I've seen none of  that "4 guys standing watching 1 guy work" stuff

Libraries.  The only Federal Library is The Library Of Congress.  Most of the libraries aren't even state run, but county owned.  Nuff said about that.

Welfare.  Nobody's getting rich on welfare.  Nobody's buying Cadillacs on welfare either.  Welfare incomes are at or below the poverty level.  You can't buy a used Hyundai on welfare.  Sure, some recipients buy crack, but if you were on welfare, you'd probably be addicted to something too.

And while I'm on that subject, it would certainly cheaper to treat this nations addicts than to arrest and jail them.  And jailing people who smoke dope is stupid as well.  First, it's less intoxicating than alcohol, but if we would get off propaganda high horse and start telling the truth about marijuana, it's use might decline.  You know, things like smoking marijuana carries some of the same health problems as smoking cigarettes(lung cancer, emphesiema).  Spell check please!!

Sure government isn't perfect.  A lot of things have problems.  Some things don't work at all.  But some things do work.  But the Republicans can only win by running the politics of fear.  "People on welfare buying Cadillacs."  They only seem to see the bottom of the glass and how crappy it is there.  Of course they're looking down.

[neil young]

i cant believe this thread is still going.
God forbid one day you contract some kind of illness and go broke trying to get better.
then lets see how you feel about health care.it's always the same for some people.screw everybody else untill it happens to them.

[edbikerii]

Welfare.  Nobody's getting rich on welfare.  Nobody's buying Cadillacs on welfare either.  Welfare incomes are at or below the poverty level.  You can't buy a used Hyundai on welfare.  Sure, some recipients buy crack, but if you were on welfare, you'd probably be addicted to something too.

You've obviously never been to NYC.  This is the land of public housing projects with Cadillacs, Mercedes Benzes, Lexi and Infinitis parked all over the place.  Yeah, the elevators still smell like piss, and they are littered with crack vials.

[edbikerii]

i cant believe this thread is still going.
God forbid one day you contract some kind of illness and go broke trying to get better.
then lets see how you feel about health care.it's always the same for some people.screw everybody else untill it happens to them.

You see, that's exactly the misunderstanding here, Neil.  The people who are out working hard, paying the taxes and paying for their insurance (through reduced salaries) are the ones getting screwed.

If you want cheap insulin, or Nexium, or Viagra, sure, socialist public healthcare sounds good to you.  If you need major surgery, or have cancer, or any illness that requires more than a shot in the ass, they you'll always be better off with a well-paid professional who knows that patients with more than half a brain have done their homework and checked both his and his facility's mortality rates.

[DammitDan]

Can we lock this thread and let it die, please?

It's just turned into a damn shouting match that's constantly verging on blatant racism.  It's more offensive than intelligent...

[S-Dog]

Can we lock this thread and let it die, please?

It's just turned into a damn shouting match that's constantly verging on blatant racism.  It's more offensive than intelligent...

I like reading it. 

I think it is interesting to see how people look at our country and the world in general.  It is also interesting to see what stance people take and how a huge amount of it is based on their situation now. 

And 333, I think you must live in a different place than anywhere I have been.  A caddy or a mercedes is a regular sight in the low income housing where I live.  However, we only have 2 people watching 1 person shovel here. 

[upperlake04]

If you want cheap insulin, or Nexium, or Viagra, sure, socialist public healthcare sounds good to you.  If you need major surgery, or have cancer, or any illness that requires more than a shot in the ass, they you'll always be better off with a well-paid professional who knows that patients with more than half a brain have done their homework and checked both his and his facility's mortality rates.

    ::)Ed buddy, thats the second time you've attempted to provoke  members that live outside of the USA.  Maybe a little reading or even some time watching BBC or CBC television might broaden your horizon. I read from your posts that your sense of loyalty and compassion extends no further than your family, but you might consider that on an international forum, an uneducated, insulting, chest-thumping statement like that can reflect poorly on your countrymen. Maybe you don't care.  
  If trolling is really the point, you're good, you got me , but you'll have to work harder if you want to be a SiliconDoc.
  From todays CBC news..

  "A chain of big-box home improvement stores says the typical Canadian retail customer behaves quite differently from an American when faced with disappointing service.
  The president of Home Depot's Canadian operations, Annette Verschuren, says it seems Canadians are more polite, but fight back in ways that can hurt sales down the road.
  An American is likely to "scream at you, but then come back the next day," Verschuren said.
  "A Canadian customer doesn't scream — they just quietly walk out of your store and never come back, but tell 50 people," she said in an interview with the Canadian Press."

[Uncle Ernie]

Ed, when's the last time you took one of those elevators?

I had a "good" job with good healthcare.  When a car T-boned me, I got fired.  Welcome to North Carolina.

[edbikerii]

No upperlake, I'm not trolling.  Based on my own personal experience and perceptions, and from decades of working with people from all over the world, including Canada and the UK, I believe that the health care system in the US is expensive, but it is also the best system there is.

If pharmaceutical companies didn't make money, the world wouldn't have lifesaving medicines.

If medical equipment vendors didn't make money, the world wouldn't have lifesaving diagnostic technologies like CT scans.

If doctors didn't make money, the world wouldn't have half as many, and those that remained wouldn't be very good.

These are simple facts that derive from the law of supply and demand.

I wouldn't trade our system for a less expensive (yeah right, like every other government run program) socialized system where all competition and the incentive to strive for excellence has been removed.

[333]

I live in a close Virginia suburb of Washington D.C..  If you are familiar, inside the beltway.  My wife works inside D.C..  I go in the city almost weekly.  In going to Maryland, I go through the city, especially when riding the bike.  The aforementioned beltway is the dirtiest road I've ever been on.  Grit and sand thrown up in my face!  But I digress!  My route takes me through the southeast quadrant of the city, easily one of the poorest areas.  No "projects" to speak of, more of a residential area, but very run down.  And no Cadillacs.  No Mercedes Benz.  Some cars look abandoned or at least not running.  As "projects" go there is a small area of public housing in Alexandria Virginia(where I do my weekly volunteering), and again no expensive cars.  So I do apparently live in a different place.  A place where welfare reform works!

It surprises me to hear that any Republican would know much about the projects first hand.  Most republicans(except politicians) I know(admittedly few) stay as far away from those type of areas, buying into the"fear of politics" i spoke of earlier.  One guy I knew moved out of Falls Church,VA(his home town) because of so many minorities moving in.  He would never consider going into D.C. for any reason.  Just the car, boat and bike shows at the convention center he missed was unbelievable.  And he was into these things.  I bought a K4 750 from him.

[edbikerii]

Frankly, it would surprise me more to hear that democrat politicians know anything about poverty and welfare.  Hilary Clinton lives in a $20,000,000 house in Chappaqua, NY, but takes day trips with Bill down to Harlem (with Secret Service protection, of course) to pretend that they give a #$%* about poor people long enough to trick them out of their votes.

They don't know anything about poverty, welfare, or hard work.  All they know about is how to exploit people.

Didn't anybody here study the true origins of the Southern Democrats in school?  Didn't anybody here study slavery in school?  I did!  I studied slavery in public school in The Bronx.

I live in a close Virginia suburb of Washington D.C..  If you are familiar, inside the beltway.  My wife works inside D.C..  I go in the city almost weekly.  In going to Maryland, I go through the city, especially when riding the bike.  The aforementioned beltway is the dirtiest road I've ever been on.  Grit and sand thrown up in my face!  But I digress!  My route takes me through the southeast quadrant of the city, easily one of the poorest areas.  No "projects" to speak of, more of a residential area, but very run down.  And no Cadillacs.  No Mercedes Benz.  Some cars look abandoned or at least not running.  As "projects" go there is a small area of public housing in Alexandria Virginia(where I do my weekly volunteering), and again no expensive cars.  So I do apparently live in a different place.  A place where welfare reform works!

It surprises me to hear that any Republican would know much about the projects first hand.  Most republicans(except politicians) I know(admittedly few) stay as far away from those type of areas, buying into the"fear of politics" i spoke of earlier.  One guy I knew moved out of Falls Church,VA(his home town) because of so many minorities moving in.  He would never consider going into D.C. for any reason.  Just the car, boat and bike shows at the convention center he missed was unbelievable.  And he was into these things.  I bought a K4 750 from him.

[Bob Wessner]

Hilary Clinton lives in a $20,000,000 house in Chappaqua, NY

If you are referring to the house purchased in 1999, the N.Y. Times reported at that time, it was valued at $1.7 million.

[eldar]

Ed, as if republican politicians are any better. You keep yammering about hillary but your beloved guilianni  is no saint. He is probably one of the worst other than maybe Huckabee. Both republicans. SO that gate swings both ways but I sure love how some republicans love to sling names around. You do fear-monger republicans proud I bet.

[andy750]

If pharmaceutical companies didn't make money, the world wouldn't have lifesaving medicines.

If medical equipment vendors didn't make money, the world wouldn't have lifesaving diagnostic technologies like CT scans.

If doctors didn't make money, the world wouldn't have half as many, and those that remained wouldn't be very good.

These are simple facts that derive from the law of supply and demand.

Sadly Ed your "simple facts" are not really "facts" at all but propaganda. They are not really based on reality. 

Pharmaceutical companies are NOT in the business to save you or me or provide the WORLD (I had to laugh at this assertion that these companies are WORLD-saving  ...nice one!) with life-saving medicine. They are in the medicine business to make money!! Simple! Why else would they spend 80% of their yearly budgets marketing their side-effect inducing wares all over American TV every 10 mins. Perhaps if they spent more of that money on actual R & D they might be able to make real advances in science. The reality is that most of the quality science is done in underfunded ACADEMIC non-profit institutions....those socialist places where information is shared for free and your peers review the quality of your work and YOU earn very little except the respect of your peers.  One again....big pharma is in it to make LOTS of money...NOT advance science or medicine.....if they do come up with a new drug then great but look closer and ask....do they know how it really works? Bah, what does that matter as long as it makes a pot load of cash...right? Think about Vioxx from Merck....classic example....and yes there are plenty more....I think if you do a little research you will find that most advances in medicine come through from ACADEMICS....when was the last time that some scientist from the Pharma companies recieved the Nobel Prize for Medicine? Hmmmm? According to your assertion these "world-saving companies" should get it every year....

Your other assertions are just ridiculous. So if doctors dont make any money then they cant be very good? Ah now I see.... so thats why the health care systems in the rest of the industrialized world are crap! It has nothing to do with providing care and relief for suffering patients, more to do with the bottom line...those stupid pinko-commie-socialist doctors in the UK, Canada, Holland, Germany, Spain etc etc are all idiots right!? 

Upperlake was spot on with his comments.....and I have to stop replying here as this thread really is going nowhere.....I just cant ignore these ignorant statements that are proposed as fact 

cheers
Andy

[ofreen]

    ::)Ed buddy, thats the second time you've attempted to provoke  members that live outside of the USA.  (snip)  If trolling is really the point, you're good, you got me , but you'll have to work harder if you want to be a SiliconDoc.
  From todays CBC news..

  "A chain of big-box home improvement stores says the typical Canadian retail customer behaves quite differently from an American when faced with disappointing service.
  The president of Home Depot's Canadian operations, Annette Verschuren, says it seems Canadians are more polite, but fight back in ways that can hurt sales down the road.
  An American is likely to "scream at you, but then come back the next day," Verschuren said.
  "A Canadian customer doesn't scream — they just quietly walk out of your store and never come back, but tell 50 people," she said in an interview with the Canadian Press."

I can understand you not liking somebody provoking those outside the U.S., and I'm with you, but then you cite a totally irrelevant statement by a Canadian disparaging people from the U.S.  I don't get that.

[Bob Wessner]

This is the Open Forum, so just about anything goes. Let's just be respectful of how we go about responding to one another's view points.

P.S. Aimed at no one in particular by the way.

[S-Dog]

I love EVERYONE!!!!................................... Even the Canadians 

[upperlake04]

 Point taken Ofreen. My (incorrect) assumption was that the president of the Canadian operation of Home Depot was American. A google check in response to your post shows she is Nova Scotian born. Her statement certainly does has different implications depending on her nationality. "disparaging"?  maybe, maybe just an observation on stereotyped national tendencies?  It is nice though to see that a regular Canadian, if she works hard, can rise to be the president of an American company.
  You have to be sharp here on the chat forum

 You're OK too SDog