Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[edbikerii]

Yes, Bob, I have estimated that $20M Chappaqua home value.  In 1999, the purchase price was reported to have been $1.7M before massive renovations, including a multi-million dollar security system.  After the expensive value-increasing renovations, consider that home prices in Chappaqua have at least doubled, if not tripled, since 1999.

Also, the Clintons own other multi-million dollar homes.  Including one in washington, DC estimated to be worth well over $4,200,000 according to the British "Telegraph":  http://www.ovaloffice2008.com/2005/09/hillary-clinton-telegraph-news-hillary.html

Hilary Clinton lives in a $20,000,000 house in Chappaqua, NY

If you are referring to the house purchased in 1999, the N.Y. Times reported at that time, it was valued at $1.7 million.

[eldar]

So you do not really know but just threw out a number to try and add weight to your statement?

[edbikerii]

OK, Eldar, so let's just ignore appreciation and renovations and say $1,700,000 in Chappaqua (in 1999) and $4,200,000 in DC (in 2005).  What part of that makes you feel like Hilary is looking out for the poor?

So you do not really know but just threw out a number to try and add weight to your statement?

[andy750]

What does having an expensive home/profitable business have to do with your politics or how you will look out for anyone, poor included? Look back at your history of your country Ed....Kennedy, Lincoln, Jefferson etc etc....all wealthy men before becoming President.

If that was the case then WHO should be running for President? Someone who dosent have so much money?  Do you think any Republicans or Democrats are poor or live in small houses? Once again you`re not making much sense Ed. You really have to stop with these misleading and misguided statements.....

cheers
Andy

[ofreen]

  "disparaging"?  maybe, maybe just an observation on stereotyped national tendencies? 

That was my point.  Every country has their fair share of jerks.  The behavior attributed to Canadians happens here, too.  My experience traveling around in Canada is that folks there are vey civil and I always enjoy my visits.  I have the same experience in the U.S.  It seems silly for anybody to be pointing fingers at the other.

Just to be clear, I have no beef with you, upperlake.  I enjoy reading your take on things.

[eldar]

once again ed gets pwned. I sure would like to know how many polititians BOTH dem and repub that are poor.

[edbikerii]

The point isn't that politicians need to be poor.  Again people are trying to put words in my mouth.

The point -- as I have stated over and over again, and nobody has refuted in the least --  is that democrats pretend to care about the poor in order to secure their votes.  Worse yet, they intentionally propagate counterproductive welfare programs to KEEP THEM POOR so they will continue to vote for democrats.

[333]

Just where would you have a former president live?  And yes, we paid for the security improvements in the house.  I believe the law dictates that former presidents get that much protection.  Republican or Democrat.  Nobody moves into a slum because they want to.

And let's put this drug company thing to rest as well.  The sheer amount of testing that the US Food and Drug Administration requires is unbelievable.  We may discover a drug this year, but it will be 12 to 15 years for all the testing before a drug gets used in humans.  The reason drugs are cheaper in, say Canada, is because they don't do all that testing.  Once a drug is released for prescription, other countries drug companies produce it and sell it cheaper and make tons more profit.  And yes, Vioxx is a good example of all that testing missing the mark, but you don't ever hear of the hundreds of drugs that do get it right.  And I've certainly never heard of pharmaceutical companies making huge profits, only the oil companies

[andy750]

And I've certainly never heard of pharmaceutical companies making huge profits, only the oil companies

Does that make it not true then if you havent heard of it? Here is some info for you to think over.....

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/thisistheaflcio/publications/magazine/0503_bigfix.cfm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/12/60minutes/main605700.shtml


and a US Government report....

http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1108

and countless more.....why else are they in BUSINESS?

The point isn't that politicians need to be poor. 

So why bring up the cost of the Clintons houses? I didnt get THAT point? Please explain how this relates to their politics?.....it dosent....

cheers
Andy

[333]

The point isn't that politicians need to be poor.  Again people are trying to put words in my mouth.

The point -- as I have stated over and over again, and nobody has refuted in the least --  is that democrats pretend to care about the poor in order to secure their votes.  Worse yet, they intentionally propagate counterproductive welfare programs to KEEP THEM POOR so they will continue to vote for democrats.

Do you think the American people are that stupid that they would see what you describe and allow it to continue?  Their deeds speak louder than your(Republicans) words.  Maybe not so much between 2000 and 2006, the Republicans were speaking a bit louder and wraping themselves in our flag, but I believe we're done with listening to them.

[Terry in Australia]

all i know is if #$%* falls apart, i'm going mad max with one of my bikes!  i should start fabbing some AK mounts on my cb750!

AK mounts? How "Un-American" is that? What's wrong with twin barking M16's? Damn commie pinko democrat tree hugging whale kissing eco-nazi!

But seriously, I can't believe that some of you guys think that tax payer funded health care is somehow welfare? Where do you think your taxes should go? Geez, with medicare I pay 1% of my annual salary to the government, and if I get sick, they fix me, simple as that. 700 bucks (US, of course) per year is cheap insurance, I reckon?

Sure, those dirty immigrants or crack-head poor people can get medical treatment here for free too, just like they can use the government funded (state or federal, who cares?) roads to drive their Bimmers and Mercs (yeah, right!) to the nearest tax payer funded hospital.

If you guys want to defend why you need to pisss a huge percentage of your salary up against the wall just in case you get sick, then go ahead, but don't try and make sense of it, because for folks like me in other countries who have tax payer funded medical care, and see it working fine, we just think you're brainwashed. Sorry. Cheers, Terry.

[neil young]

all i know is if #$%* falls apart, i'm going mad max with one of my bikes!  i should start fabbing some AK mounts on my cb750!

AK mounts? How "Un-American" is that? What's wrong with twin barking M16's? Damn commie pinko democrat tree hugging whale kissing eco-nazi!

But seriously, I can't believe that some of you guys think that tax payer funded health care is somehow welfare? Where do you think your taxes should go? Geez, with medicare I pay 1% of my annual salary to the government, and if I get sick, they fix me, simple as that. 700 bucks (US, of course) per year is cheap insurance, I reckon?

Sure, those dirty immigrants or crack-head poor people can get medical treatment here for free too, just like they can use the government funded (state or federal, who cares?) roads to drive their Bimmers and Mercs (yeah, right!) to the nearest tax payer funded hospital.

If you guys want to defend why you need to pisss a huge percentage of your salary up against the wall just in case you get sick, then go ahead, but don't try and make sense of it, because for folks like me in other countries who have tax payer funded medical care, and see it working fine, we just think you're brainwashed. Sorry. Cheers, Terry.

+ 1

[eldar]

SO ed your problem is that dems pretend to care and they should be like repubs and just $h!t on everyone? That is somehow better?

[scondon]

 Damn good point, Terry. It costs $220.48/month for my Kaiser health insurance. For this to be 1% of my income I would be earning $264,000 dollars per year. This is a basic plan, mind you, and should I get some incurable disease that required long term treatment then I doubt I could stay insured. If I had an existing condition and sought coverage by Kaiser insurance I would be denied.

   If I made over $264,000 per year you're damn right I'd be less than willing to see that go to some crackhead in emergency for a bulletwound he so richly deserved. I'd rather spend my dollars on putting barbed wire around my gated community. It's mine, I earned it, #$%* you!!   Human need is sooooooo disgusting, get away ya #$%*in' leaches

[Ibsen]

I have seen this film, and although I might not use the same colorful language as Terry , I do support his opinion and share his experience. In fact, Michael Moore left out one part of the movie that was made about how health care (and a few other issues) are taken care of here in Norway. (M. Moore was afraid you Americans would claim it was based on pure fiction.)
Btw, United Nations Development Program (UNDP) has ranked Norway as having the highest standard of living in the world for four years in a row. The ranking is based largely on average levels of education and income, combined with expected length of lifetime. Sweden, Australia and Canada are next in line, while the United States is further down the scale. This year Iceland topped the list btw, but they are organizing their health care the same way as Norway, Australia and Canada.
To understand how this is possible in our countries you have to keep in mind that a conservative politician in our part of the world are considered to be very liberal, a left wing, in USA. So I guess you can say the rest of us (and that is the majority here in Norway) are are commies.

[eldar]

Apparently commies have better ideas. at least on insurance.

[DammitDan]

Hey Ibsen, my sister and her husband have been talking about immigrating to Norway for some time now (about 8 years, to be exact). 

If doctors didn't make money, the world wouldn't have half as many, and those that remained wouldn't be very good.

I don't understand the rationalization that in order to have a passion for something and be good at it, you have to make a LOT of money doing it.  I'd have to say the exact opposite is true...  You could make a hell of a lot more money in business working the same hours you have to work as a (non-specialist) doctor in the US.  Dad went from working about 50-60 hours a week as a pediatrician in the US Army's "borderline socialized medical system" to 90-100+ hours a week as a private group practice pediatrician in TN.  Sure, he made more money but he also worked twice as much.  I'm pretty sure he wasn't getting PAID twice the amount to WORK twice the amount.  I hardly saw him at all while I was in high school.

He now works for the US Army again as a developmental pediatrician (though no longer as a Lt.Col, but as a G-man  ).  He took a large paycut for the position but now only works 40-45 hours a week.

So my question is, were his skills or his dedication to work any different when his salary went up?  I can attest that he always was (and still is) a great doctor, no matter how much money he makes.  He was even talking about joining the Doctors Without Borders program, where he would make even LESS money but would help countless more people (before mom talked him out of it).

I'd have to say that doctors who get into medicine solely for the money either (a) don't get very far due to the work load and dedication required, or (b) don't make very good doctors (since their concern for profit outweighs their concern for their patients...  ever heard of bedside manner?)

[paulages]

AK mounts? How "Un-American" is that? What's wrong with twin barking M16's? Damn commie pinko democrat tree hugging whale kissing eco-nazi!

i'd want them to work, terry!

But seriously, I can't believe that some of you guys think that tax payer funded health care is somehow welfare? Where do you think your taxes should go? Geez, with medicare I pay 1% of my annual salary to the government, and if I get sick, they fix me, simple as that. 700 bucks (US, of course) per year is cheap insurance, I reckon?

Sure, those dirty immigrants or crack-head poor people can get medical treatment here for free too, just like they can use the government funded (state or federal, who cares?) roads to drive their Bimmers and Mercs (yeah, right!) to the nearest tax payer funded hospital.

If you guys want to defend why you need to pisss a huge percentage of your salary up against the wall just in case you get sick, then go ahead, but don't try and make sense of it, because for folks like me in other countries who have tax payer funded medical care, and see it working fine, we just think you're brainwashed. Sorry. Cheers, Terry.

seriously, if terry is arguing for this here, it's clearly not a "left vs. right" issue.  like i said, some you here (ed) have just bought the republican propaganda hook, line and sinker. you argue against your own best interests! amazing. joseph goebbels would be proud!

[DammitDan]

AK mounts? How "Un-American" is that? What's wrong with twin barking M16's? Damn commie pinko democrat tree hugging whale kissing eco-nazi!

i'd want them to work, terry!

Now THAT'S FUNNY!     

[edbikerii]

Andy, let's cut the BS, shall we?  None of us are 2 years old here.  Poverty is not the Clintons' problem, nor are they doing anything to help.  Why would they, when poverty is exactly what keeps them "in business"?

Surely you can see that the democrats are just exploiting the poor by pretending to help them with dependency-creating welfare programs.  They are no better than the crack dealers in the projects giving away free hits once in a while just to make sure their victims keep on coming back for more.

So why bring up the cost of the Clintons houses? I didnt get THAT point? Please explain how this relates to their politics?.....it dosent....

[edbikerii]

No.  My problem is that the dems pretend to care, but actually want to keep the poor down so that they can continue to $h1t on everyone.

SO ed your problem is that dems pretend to care and they should be like repubs and just $h!t on everyone? That is somehow better?

[scondon]

Vote Republican in 2008- "At least WE don't pretend to care"

[edbikerii]

No -- just the ones who vote democrat.

[Edit: added from here down at 5:28pm EST]
Damn, that was just too easy for me to resist.  It doesn't truly address the point, however.  No, it is not out of stupidity, it is a misguided "self-interest".  Of course, like any other dependency, most people who are addicted to welfare will not vote for a candidate who might take it away, even if they KNOW THAT THEY'D BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT IT.

Just ask most long-time smokers whether they think cigarettes are good for them, and then ask them if they would vote to make cigarettes illegal.

Do you think the American people are that stupid that they would see what you describe and allow it to continue? 

[eldar]

I fail to see ANY repub trying to get people off of welfare other than just cutting programs. So while ed keeps bashing dems out of lack of any REAL knowledge, anyone  can see the repubs doing the same thing.

[edbikerii]

I fail to see ANY repub trying to get people off of welfare other than just cutting programs. So while ed keeps bashing dems out of lack of any REAL knowledge, anyone  can see the repubs doing the same thing.

Again, Eldar, you've forgotten about Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty.

We discussed this at length in another thread several months ago, don't you remember?  In case you've forgotten:

[Edit:  I corrected a spelling mistake]

That would certainly be a possibility Ed.  I would not mind getting rid of welfare completely, just take some time to do it. Not like a century but 20 years or so.

I would certainly go with something like what you say.