Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[seaweb11]

I'm Canadian. I have always had a  great dentist and the entire family goes twice a year.  

"but I don't like the idea of paying for anyone's medical bills other than my own. " Dude, at some point in your life it will be your turn
.
I have never been denied any treatment, but at times there are waiting times to see s specialist. I have unfortunatley been in the presence of someone sick for 8 years "rare blood disorder"  and the amount of effort the doctors put out on behalf of him was OUTSTANDING for YEARS.

The movie, I have seen it. His work is always slanted, but some good info for all to see in a format that allows more to get the message.

P.S. Our health care is not Free.
Family of 3 $108.00 per month. Seems reasonable to me for cradle to grave service

[edbikerii]

Eldar, your hangups about the "big city" are none of my concern.

Yes, the Mayo clinic is also one of the top healthcare centers in the world.  I make no bones about that.  Also, even Lance Armstrong went to Houston rather than NY.

You are right, I should have stated that unless there is a KNOWN effective treatment for your particular cancer elsewhere, you are best off going to NYH or MSK.

[edbikerii]

Yes Andy,

I do pride myself on looking at problems from an objective perspective.  I don't care what most people are saying, or what the latest "issue du jour" is from the current crop of politicians.

Based on my first-hand experience (obviously anecdotal), the politically motivated calls for healthcare reform are nothing more than another vote-grabbing BS story.

If you tell me that you are a doctor, and you think socialized medicine will "fix" things, then you are either a liar or totally incompetent as a doctor, and in desperate need of protection from the government.

If I heard one cry for "healthcare reform" that didn't involve socialized medicine under government control, I'd be willing to listen.

[DammitDan]

As for flood insurance, etc.  What kind of IDIOT lives in the shadows of a freaking LEVEE and doesn't have flood insurance!?!?!  If flood insurance is too expensive living next door to a goddamned LEVEE, then guess what?  Move the hell away from the levee!

...

Why do you even bother to post if you're just going to post trash like this?

It's truly rare to see someone be so callous and insensitive.

[edbikerii]

Oh, and for the semantically challenged, my definition of "cured" centers around what seems to be the industry accepted "5-year disease-free survival".

[andy750]

Id be careful with that slander Ed. You really shouldnt call people liars or question their competency when you know absolutely nothing about them. You are a class example of someone too ignorant to teach. Stick with getting your bike running and leave the science and medicine to people who know what they are talking about. As I stated before most well respected medical and science professionals would not agree with your assertion that the US healthcare system is the best thing since sliced bread....you are living a dream Ed   

cheers
Andy

[eldar]

Ed, you obviously do not know the mayo clinic. There is none in houston. Arizona, florida, and minnesota are the locations.

As for any hangups, that would be your forte. You figure that if it comes from NY it is the best bar none. Fact is you are wrong. Everyone here knows it but you.

[edbikerii]

You know, Dan, I paid an awful lot of money to live in my nice safe home, far away from Levees, flooding rivers, earthquakes, violent criminals, and various other obvious high risks.  Why should I be held responsible for the risks that others take with their property and their very lives?  I don't ask anyone to compensate me for bad gambles that I've taken and lost.

I lost a lot of money after 9/11 when the stock markets were closed down in NYC.  I didn't go #$%*ing to the government or my business insurance company to bail me and my small business out.  Yes, many others did.  I sucked it up, and soldiered on, because it is The Right Thing To Do.

People need to take some personal responsibility.  In the end, it makes them much more productive, and happier too.

As for flood insurance, etc.  What kind of IDIOT lives in the shadows of a freaking LEVEE and doesn't have flood insurance!?!?!  If flood insurance is too expensive living next door to a goddamned LEVEE, then guess what?  Move the hell away from the levee!

...

Why do you even bother to post if you're just going to post trash like this?

It's truly rare to see someone be so callous and insensitive.

[edbikerii]

Eldar, I didn't say Lance Armstrong went to the Mayo in Houston.  I merely said he "went to Houston".  Have you read Armstrong's book?

Ed, you obviously do not know the mayo clinic. There is none in houston. Arizona, florida, and minnesota are the locations.

As for any hangups, that would be your forte. You figure that if it comes from NY it is the best bar none. Fact is you are wrong. Everyone here knows it but you.

[Bob Wessner]

Health care in the U.S. is a difficult and thorny issue. Continuing to discuss it might prove interesting. Let's just keep is civil and unemotional.

[DammitDan]

Ed, you don't seem to have read my whole post before telling me my acquaintance is an idiot.  Let me spell it out for you.

She was paying $12,000 A MONTH FOR INSURANCE, AND WAS GIVEN AN $11,000 CLAIM RESOLUTION.

How would you be paying for her "mistake" if she didn't even come CLOSE to getting back what SHE was paying?  You seem to have no problems with offering judgment on people you have never met, but refuse to take the time to understand what you're judging them for.

[Uncle Ernie]

This reminds me of a card I have- I think it was supposed to be about the French Revolution with a wonderful double entendre;
THE PEASANTS ARE REVOLTING !
(they cartainly are...)

First, you didn't lose any money on stocks unless you sold them.  Hopefully, you're more intelligent than that.  Even with stocks being so volatile and lots of movement down right now, the index is still much higher than it was not too long ago.

Medicaid in this state allows one house, one car, and $2500 in the bank TOTAL.  
I have a little saved in IRAs that I made while WORKING MY BUTT OFF thank you very much.  I have zero balance on my credit card.  I am NOT going to make the government make me sell everything off just to follow some draconian rules and regulations.  In fact, I'm paying back the government all the money I made for 2 years even thought it was poverty-level wages- $13K a year, for a total of $26K.  

Gosh I'm mad now...  

Personal responsibility... I had insurance and got fired when a car T-boned me.  Just about all businesses hire part-time now so they don't have to pay healthcare costs.  I'm working now against my doctors wishes to make not enough money.  I wish I could be like you.  You're obviously a fine example for all decent citizens and it's a real shame useless folks like me take up some of the same air you breathe.  However, if it wasn't for deadbeats like me, you wouldn't be able to shop at a grocery store, eat at a restaurant, get your car worked on, etc.
To be honest, I would take the personal responsibility to just go ahead and die, but for some reason I really don't get, God keeps pulling my ass out of the fire.  Maybe it's because He knows Kathleen and Rosie would be quite distraught.

I suppose flinging cliched names is counter-productive, but I sure am thinking them.  Good luck with your responsible, insured, and safe life.  I hope everything ends up as you plan.  

If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

[edbikerii]

So Andy, are you a doctor?  Do you really think the government can do a better job managing healthcare?

Do you think that there are any current proposals on the table for healthcare "reform" that are quantifiably better than the current system?  I'd love to hear one.

So far, all I'm hearing is politicians grandstanding and trying to scare us, but not one single superior, or even comparable, alternative.  Just a lot of scare-mongering.

Please remember that I didn't start this thread.  I'm just sick and tired of hearing all the political BS about how we need healthcare reform.  This is a motorcycle bulletin board, and I don't enjoy being inundated with this political crap when I'm trying to relax with my motorcycling hobby.  If I wanted that crap I'd go to a political forum.

Id be careful with that slander Ed. You really shouldnt call people liars or question their competency when you know absolutely nothing about them. You are a class example of someone too ignorant to teach. Stick with getting your bike running and leave the science and medicine to people who know what they are talking about. As I stated before most well respected medical and science professionals would not agree with your assertion that the US healthcare system is the best thing since sliced bread....you are living a dream Ed   

cheers
Andy

[Terry in Australia]

"Open Forum - Everything that has nothing to do with the Honda SOHC/4 motorcycles."

[edbikerii]

Dan, I've quoted your post from earlier:

the insurance company claimed the building was destroyed by flood damage and awarded her a total of $11,000.

I'm sorry, but if she didn't have flood insurance, then she's lucky she got anything from the insurance company.  Her claim of "full coverage" may be accurate in her mind, and yours, but I know that flood insurance is always extra, and it sure isn't cheap when you are in the shadow of a levee.  Heck, insurance companies even make commercials about flood insurance.

[scootskate]

I'm a teacher and have been without a contract for the better part of the last four years, due mostly to the increases in health care and retirement.  The arguement I here against health care is that our taxes would be outlandish.   I think there is a point though where the lack of increase in my wages due to health care costs would equal or outweigh the potential taxes.   I think America is a great country, but I do hope that sometime in my children's lives, there will be reform in both health care and the cost of higher education.

[edbikerii]

Ernie,

I feel for you and your family, but what, exactly, would you like me to do?

I've spent my time "working for the man" so I have excellent health insurance.  I sacrificed potentially more lucrative contracting positions, and many risky business opportunities in order to make sure my family was taken care of and insured.  I worked hard to gather the qualifications necessary for my career, and I've paid extra for health, life, long-term disability, etc.

I've also paid dearly into both Social Security and Medicare for the majority of my life

What more would you like me to do now to help?  You want me to pay more to the government to screw things up even worse?

[333]

I'd like to take this opportunity to throw a fork into the road:

we could take the higher road and:
A.(this trick worked in another thread recently,so...) What oil should I use?

Or we could sink lower into the abyss and:
B.Does anybody want to know the difference between Republicans and Democrats?  Cause I could show you just by dropping some member names.

[Uncle Ernie]

That's a fair question I guess...
One thing is to try to avoid the (what I consider Republican) attitude of "I've got mine- too bad for you".  We are all interconnected.  I think many people don't pay attention to what goes on in DC until it's too late.  We trust our government.  I think things like Medicare Plan D was a political palliative that, in many cases, actually makes things worse.  
I think we, as a country, need to enter into an attitude similar to WWII where some sacrific is going to be necessary to get a more cohesive country together.  Moral issues, for instance, don't need to be legislated- they should remain in a church or synagogue.  We need to find a leader, not someone who looks like he might win an election.  Republicans are isolationist and support fear and long=gone ideals of small government and responsible spending.  When was the last time any of that ever happened?  Democrats have NO PLAN except to reject anything Republicans think or say.  Hardley a platform, yet that's what we have to vote on.  Obama talks about change... So did Che, Lenon, Marx, et al.  So what?  
Would I be willing to pay more taxes for better schools? Yes.  A couble billion that can't be found in Iraq? No.  
I'm not a businessman, so I'm not sure how "things" got this bad.  I do think that reliance on machines has caused costs to go up.  A reluctance to accept that death is a part of life creates unrealistic expectations, I think.  Doctors say that malpractice insurance is too high, but in this state it really is almost impossible to sue a doctor for malpractice.  So-where is his insurance money going exactly?   Getting rid of pill patents so generics could be made is restraint of free trade?  No one would make new drugs because they couldn't recoup their money they spent on R&D (and marketing!)?  
And you're right- people don't want to take responsibility for being overweight, smoking, eating crap, no exercise.  
Having a ME vs THEM attitude doesn't help, though.  Because so many people fall on bad times isn't especially because they're irresponsible or lazy or stupid.  One can't insure against all eventualities.  #$%* happens.  I sure wish it wasn't like that, because I thought I had it together at one time, too.

As a famous New York business tycoon (just kidding- c'mon now), perhaps we could ask business oriented people to design solutions instead of "The Government".

Stream of conciousmess there. don't know if it makes sense, but dinner is waitng.  Is there no Spell Check anymore?!
TTFN

[Raul CB750K1]

Spain have socialized medicine and it works great in my opinion. In order to get hired by the spanish health system, doctors must undergo a very tight process that includes examination and more than one year practice. Only the best ones are hired. There is also private medicine, but even there, they usually only hire doctors that are already working for the public system -so they get double income as they work in the morning in a public hospital and in the afternoon in a private hospital-.


My sister in law lost a baby on the 8th month of pregnancy. They always believed the public system should have made here more diagnostic tests, so they joined a private insurance policy. She got pregnant again a couple of years later, and do you know what they found when they went for the first gynechologist visit? The same doctor that treated her in the public hospital.

The company I work for also builds X-Ray and TAC equipment. It happened that the director of the technical service was one of my school teachers. Talking about business with him, he told me "I love to sell equipment to the public health system. They always want the best, 24 hour assistance etc. Private hospitals will always discuss the price, contract only daytime technical assistance etc". At the end of the day, public hospitals are just companies that make a profit. Socialized medicine is a public service that doesn't have to make a profit, so as long as the budget is not exhausted they will do anything the patient needs. I guess the same discussion could go for public vs private universities.

The problem with medicine is that when you talk about it, you can't rely on statistics. No matter what statistics say about the rate of cancer survivors on public vs private hospitals in Spain. If you or any of your loved ones died in any of them you will always believe it sucks and you could have had more chances on the other one. A famous spanish singer went to Houston (Anderson) to get cancer treatment, and probably spent most of his lifetime hard-earned money. She didn't survive. My mother in law survived Hodgkin disease 15 years ago. She underwent radio and chemio therapy in a small public hospital in her hometown. A hospital with old interiors, out-of-fashion paint, beaten furniture, three-people bedrooms and a lousy canteen. An ambulance would take her home after each session. She paid nothing, everything was covered by the public health system. And like her, thousands of people more in the country. I'm happy to pay taxes for the public health system, because I know that if I need it, I could get anything I need from it. That's what solidarity is all about I guess.

[BobbyR]

Well, it seems I have done it again. Babes and now medicine

I am a New Yorker and we have some good things here so I make no apologies for being born a raised here. We don't have the market cornered on anything. It is a better place to live than you would expect. My Brother is and MD and the VP of a regional medical center in upstate NY. For all of the Medical resources we have in the US some things are very disturbing:

Our infant mortality rate is higher than El Salvador.

The poorest Englishmen are healthier than the richest Americans.

Canadians live 3 years longer than US Americans. (Since Canada is on the American Continent, they are Americans by definition.)


Now according to my brother RichieR MD FACP and MBA here are some tidbits:

Your U.S. Doctor spends more time billing and fighting with Insurance companies than seeing you.

It takes 3 FTE employees to support one Doctor.

To maintain cash flow to support this overhead he/she needs to see 3 patients in a 15 minute period. They run from room to room so you think they are spending more time with you. Something simple moving parts like an SOHC Honda takes more time to diagnose.

Now, a Surgeon friend of mine has 18 people on the payroll. Wednesday is hernia day. He runs from operating room to operating room as they rotate patients for 12 hours, do you want be the last one he works on that day?  He needs the volume and is actually stay afloat.

There is no easy answer to our woes, but others have made it work. We need to re examine how we deliver Medical care across the board. I think this film along with John Q with Denzel Washington are wake up calls. We in the US pride ourselves on building a Democracy back in 1776, maybe rather than Socialize medicine we should "Democtrictize" Medicine. We the people may need to make some noise as our forefathers did.

I dislike that fathead Moore, but I think he is close to spot on in this case


 

[andy750]

Thanks Bobby, great post and very well put.

Cheers
Andy

[DammitDan]

I just watched the movie, Bobby, and it opened my eyes to things that even I was unaware of (I consider myself more informed than most, having watched my father work 90-100 hour weeks for the last 15 years as a private practice pediatrician)

Looking past the fact that it's a Michael Moore film, even looking past the propaganda about Cuba and the heart string stories about everyday Americans and their heartbreaking maladies, I can say that there is a very good message in this movie.  Moore doesn't go on his normal annoying "let's push as many buttons as we can" routine, but instead sticks to the issue at hand and attempts to educate people about the lies we have been told about our medical system and other medical systems around the world.  I don't trust everything he says, but I sure as hell know if any of it is true, it pisses me off.

I'm not gonna fight with Ed anymore (for obvious reasons), but I really do think people should watch this movie regardless of their feelings about Moore or their insistence that America is the best in the world at everything.

Things CAN be better than they are right now, all it would take is a willingness to try.

[Uncle Ernie]

Maybe you and Bobby might talk to your respective relatives and see what some concrete ideas would be?  Would calling a Congressman do anything? 
I'm quite cynical, but I'd try it if I thought it would do any good.  I get the impression that politicians only pretend to listen.

[SEBNN]

Well, since no one answered my question I'll just give my opinion(s) (sure no one asked for it but that is a moot point).

1.) MM is a health care crisis waiting to happen.  Thankfully he has gotten rich through the use of "artistic" editing practices and hyping the problem beyond its actual importance in the world.  Sometimes he does point out something that needs fixing, but his solutions tend to run towards a stronger central government and socializing things.  Two things that this country was not founded on.  If you like another country more (e.g. UK, Scotland, Canada, China, etc) than the US then you are free to move there (not saying that you have to, but if it is so much better there, why are you still here).

2.) Drown the trial lawyers!  The reduction in lawsuits against doctors (and their insurance companies) would lead to a lower cost of insurance and medical treatment.

3.) Fix the border problem so that hospitals quit going broke serving non-paying illegal aliens who do not contribute to the tax base.  This includes streamlining the legal immigration process.

4.) Learn from the accountants, government involvement and regulations make working more difficult.  I work for the US gov and am amazed at the ingenuity of my coworkers at finding work arounds to the insane number of arbitrary regulations that we have.  Trust me, you do not want socialized medicine, you can forget about emergency rooms unless you plan at least a month in advance for your emergency (just US, haven't worked for any other countries government). 

5.) Send me all of your money.  Sure it won't fix insurance problems, but at least one person will feel better .