Author Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.  (Read 23205 times)

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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2007, 04:16:26 PM »
As I stated earlier, in NJ a family of 4 can qualify even if they have an income as high as $80,000USD.  Also, if you don't qualify based on income alone, there are special need-based exceptions for really expensive treatments.

By the way Ed, don't believe everything President Bush tells you.

http://www.hdnews.net/Story/Roberts101807
Myth: This bill provides government health care to families with incomes as high as $83,000.

Fact: This bill does not grant SCHIP coverage to children whose families have incomes over $40,000. In fact, the only way a state can cover children in families at higher income levels is if the administration grants approval for the state to do so. This is already current law, and this bill does not change that. This means that those states who are currently covering families with incomes as high as $70,000 are doing so not through congressional approval, but through waivers by the administration. However, this bill for the first time puts tough standards into place to ensure states are truly focusing their programs on low-income children.
 
Gastric bypass surgery for morbidly obese recipients?  Cosmetic surgeries for burn victim patients?  Sure, maybe you can get a boob job under medicaid, but only if it had been cut off after the removal due to breast cancer.  You make it sound as though Medicaid is a free-for-all.  You think people WANT to be poor?
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2007, 04:56:52 PM »
Dan, I'll refer you back to your first personal attack in this mockery of a debate (see quote below).  Apparently you think I'm "callous and insensitive".  Now you done gone and hurt my feelin's.  Boo F'in hoo.

You don't even know the person (your sister's acquaintance, I.I.R.C.) who told your sister, who told you, that ridiculous story about "full insurance", but was lacking flood insurance.

Once again, I'll remind you of the obvious:  somebody who decides to operate a business next to a levee but is too cheap to purchase flood insurance DESERVES WHAT THEY GET.

There's nothing personal about any of that.

On a more personal note, I do commend you for your volunteer work.  Volunteer for another 6 days a year, and you'll be on par with me, the "callous and insensitive", "conservative", "greedy", person you have attacked so many times in this thread.

As for going to work and paying your debts.  Let me be the first, and likely only person in the entire world to tell you "good job".  Now, go do it for the next 20 years, and let me know if anybody else tells you that.  Maybe 20 years from now you'll understand how thankless tax-paying really is.  You carry the weight for all the selfish morons (along with all the less-fortunate disabled people and poor children), and then you still have to provide the benefits for yourself and your own family too.

Perhaps you are unaware, but Medicaid income levels are set by the states, not at the federal level.  The federal poverty levels are multiplied by factors that relate to the relative cost of living in each state.  I've looked up the qualifications for Medicaid on the state of NJ's websites, and I've already quoted them here.  I suggest you do it yourself if you have any doubts.  I've satisfied my own curiosity as a tax-payer.  Maybe in Tennessee the qualifications are lower.  However you slice it, I pay too much tax to give a damn anymore.

Yes, some treatments that Medicaid covers are arguably "necessary".  Yet, many of these treatments are not covered by private insurance, so thank you for verifying my assertion that people on our EXISTING SOCIALIZED MEDICINE PROGRAM HAVE BETTER COVERAGE THAN MANY PEOPLE WITH PRIVATE INSURANCE.  The very middle-class people who pay for the Medicaid program through excessive taxes, get screwed again.

How the hell do you not see that as being unfair?

As for flood insurance, etc.  What kind of IDIOT lives in the shadows of a freaking LEVEE and doesn't have flood insurance!?!?!  If flood insurance is too expensive living next door to a goddamned LEVEE, then guess what?  Move the hell away from the levee!

...

Why do you even bother to post if you're just going to post trash like this?

It's truly rare to see someone be so callous and insensitive.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2007, 05:44:28 PM »
I have started two threads that seem to evoked some debate, the Babe thread and this one. I truly wish I had never started this thread on several levels. I love a good verbal give and take, it is very popular past time here in NY. I have read some pretty ugly things here and I  am surprised at some of the ugly things written by people I would have never expected it from.
The America love it or leave it comments are really disturbing and are really played out. The US sucks comments are also extreme. The US was born of dissent. Our greatest heroes of the American Revolution were at the time Traitors, and had the British won the war, they would have been hung each one of them as  such. The US does not suck, we have people from time to time running the Government tha suck, but that can be fixed in the Voting booth.
Dissent is as American as the Hot Dog. I would have said Apple Pie, but that is as played out as love it or leave it. The American way is to not get into lock step with the Government and when something is not right, it is patriotic is to press hard to make it right. The Constitution was written to protect people from the Government, not vice versa.
There is the impression that those who require free Medical care are shiftless layabouts, undocumented aliens, or otherwise unworthy individuals. Well that just is not so across the Nation. Many are working people who have employers who do not offer any health coverage, either through greed or they simply cannot afford to offer it. Some of these shiftless folks have two jobs to make ends meet. The population my Brother's Hospital serves is about 100% white and has no illegal aliens to speak of. It is a low income level area. These people work, and they work hard. The fellow who tends his lawn, also works at the local golf course and puts in 7 day weeks in the summer, but he has 3 kids to feed. The fellows wife also works part time on a 3rd shift. He has no health coverage and cannot afford the premiums. Hardly shiftless layabouts.
This is a complex problem and the answer not simple, but, it is a problem that can be solved. The US has risen to the challenge several times.
Now, those of you that do not like my calling you out about what you have written, you can have at me all you wish. I can handle it with a smile.

     
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Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2007, 06:44:23 PM »
come in closer so I can squeeze those cute chubby cheeks








- on your face, you putz!
Dude- your 8 layers are showing!

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2007, 07:03:34 PM »
 :)
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline DammitDan

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2007, 07:05:28 PM »
Sorry guys, things got out of hand, much of it because of me.

Ed if I offended you I apologize.  I don't even know you man, I don't know why I'm fighting tooth and nail with you.

I guess motorcycles and politics just don't mix.  ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2007, 07:09:00 PM »
 Now that is manning up Dan.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:11:08 PM by BobbyR »
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2007, 07:22:20 PM »
OK Bobby, I'll have a couple shots.  I know you can take it since you are from NYC.

So instead of taking #$%* jobs that don't have health benefits, and then whining about it and trying to extort the benefits from the middle class, why not simply insist on getting benefits from your employer?  I for one, would never accept a job as an employee unless it had medical benefits.  Why can I be so smug about that, you ask?  Because I worked hard to get qualified enough to make demands of my potential employers.  What is this invisible hand that keeps the non-"shiftless-layabouts" from picking up a damned textbook and improving themselves?  I utilized the largely taxpayer-funded education system to better myself, plus I paid the minimal tuition required to attend.  Then I actually expended the energy to STUDY HARD so I could LEARN SOMETHING and graduate.

Your statement that employers don't offer health insurance due to "greed" is BS as well.  Employers offer the salary and benefits that are required in order to get the position filled.  If there are dumbasses around who are willing to work without getting benefits, then there is no reason why an employer should offer benefits.  If you don't like it, then ask your boss for benefits.  If he doesn't give them to you, then either improve yourself so you can get a better job, or put your loser tail between your legs and keep on being an unqualified, uneducated sucker.

If an employer can't afford benefits, then they can't afford to waste my time working for them.  They can't afford me.

Should we encourage people to screw themselves by NOT getting better qualifications and seeking better employment?  Obviously not.

Is it the WORKING-JOE TAXPAYER'S FAULT that the dumbass landscaper CHOSE to have 3 kids when he couldn't even afford to pay attention?  That's just plain stupid, and there's no reason in the world why I should have to pick up the slack for stupid.   I carefully avoided having children (and getting married) until I was in my 30's and I could afford to raise them properly, like any responsible person should.

Why should the very act of me doing smart things make me responsible for somebody else doing stupid things?

How is that fair in your mind?  In what ridiculous fantasy land is that fair?
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2007, 07:39:45 PM »
Just so you know, Dan, I don't actually dislike you either.  These are very serious emotional issues that weigh very heavily on people.

One thing's for sure, if your motorcycle broke down and I drove by, I'd stop and help you out.  Maybe we'd even have a beer.

Ride safe

Sorry guys, things got out of hand, much of it because of me.

Ed if I offended you I apologize.  I don't even know you man, I don't know why I'm fighting tooth and nail with you.

I guess motorcycles and politics just don't mix.  ;D
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2007, 07:53:25 PM »
I see one big hole in that theory .

How could a society exist with every one having the perfect educated job with coverage? It sounds great, but I don't see it happening.  Who would do any any one of a million jobs that you seem to require in your daily activities that do not require your amount of education, perfect people skills dealing with bosses, etc.. The entire food service industry comes to mind.

Will there not always be someone not quite as lucky or educated to serve your needs without your respect?

 ???

Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2007, 08:07:04 PM »
Heres my take on it, I am paying off federal student loans that I took out to assist with tuition and living expenses, these were in addition to the pell grants that I received for being poor despite working part time while going to school.  When I finally graduated I was married with 3 children (no satellite with TIVO, no cable, used cars, no motorcycles, 1 bicycle, inexpensive furniture, clothes from Walmart (other than my interview clothes) and the minimum plan cell phone with no internet or texting, and a fairly new laptop for class work).  I worked part time jobs with no benefits and had everything from crappy self insurance to crappy school insurance to medicaid.  Medicaid was by far the best which makes me wonder what more people expect from it.

Now I am working for less than 60K a year, my wife stays home with the kids, I have good insurance (still not up to medicaid quality) that my employer and I both pay for.  This is part of having a degree in a field that has many job opportunities.  I graduated from a state university that had reasonable tuition for instate students, I had decent grades considering working part time and helping with the kids.  I was able to volunteer in community activities and help out friends when I had time.  If I could do it I do not see why anyone else would not be able to do it.  Find a career that pays well, and get the experience, training, or education needed to get a job in that field.  US history is full of stories of people who have seized opportunities to get rich or at least well off.  I can't say that I am wealthy, or that I ever will be in my current position, but I am able to put food on the table, gas in the cars (same ones I had in college), and take a small vacation every now and then.  Someday I hope to buy some land and build a house. 

I am not defending insurance companies, politicians, or lawyers, I just wonder why we feel entitled to all sorts of things (education, health care, flood insurance, national defense, etc) with no contributions on our part.  I have never seen any thing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights about a universal "right" to eduction or health care or flood insurance (for people who build in a hole next to the ocean) or mudslide insurance (for people who build on the side of hills) or a minimum wage that employers must pay.  There is also nothing about income tax, but thats a totally different discussion.

What this all boils down to is that if I could do it with the current system, what is stopping the other guy/gal from doing it?  I made it despite having a family while going to school and minimum income.  While going to school I learned trades that helped increase my pay, though nothing like the pay increase a little piece of paper got me, and relied on the government and others as little as possible.  The only thng I attribute it to is that I never had anyone telling me that it was someone else's fault or responsibility to make sure that my family would be taken care of.  Maybe it is heartless or cruel to expect others to do what I did, but I know that I had it tons easier than the generations before me.  My father started out school going for the degree that I got and wasn't able to keep up with the material and was asked to change majors.  I was blessed with professors who worked with me and gave me chances to succeed and get past the initial learning curve problems.  For the record my father has been successful in the career field that he ended up in though I think he uses almost nothing from the degree he earned.

So yeah, the world and th US included have problems, but name a country that does as much as the US to offers so many opportunities to make a living and succeed.  And this does not mean a country that hands things out, I define success as being able to be comfortably self sufficient.  If your definition is different than mine, then state it and quantify it.

There, I am off of my soap box now :) .

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2007, 08:11:54 PM »
I see your point, Seaweb, and it is a good one.  My rebuttal is once again based on the existing Medicaid program, a socialized healthcare program for low-income and no-income people.

I see one big hole in that theory .

How could a society exist with every one having the perfect educated job with coverage? It sounds great, but I don't see it happening.  Who would do any any one of a million jobs that you seem to require in your daily activities that do not require your amount of education, perfect people skills dealing with bosses, etc.. The entire food service industry comes to mind.

Will there not always be someone not quite as lucky or educated to serve your needs without your respect?

 ???

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Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2007, 08:15:20 PM »
I see one big hole in that theory .

How could a society exist with every one having the perfect educated job with coverage? It sounds great, but I don't see it happening.  Who would do any any one of a million jobs that you seem to require in your daily activities that do not require your amount of education, perfect people skills dealing with bosses, etc.. The entire food service industry comes to mind.

Will there not always be someone not quite as lucky or educated to serve your needs without your respect?

 ???



High School Students and college students fit the bill perfectly!  I have worked in fields bucking hay, delivered pizza, done custodial work, driven school buses, some OTR trucking, telequestionairing, worked at a help desk, mentored other students, operated a combine, moved irrigation pipes, tilled crops, worked as a research assistant, separated dirt clods and rocks from potatoes, operated a furniture business, sold sporting goods at a retail store, sold building supplies at a retail store, rebuilt a pickup engine, demolished and renovated old buildings.  I have done all of these things for money.  Did I also mention that I am not even 30 years old yet.  None of these jobs were for me to make a living, just to save money or make money for school and pay the bills.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 08:19:53 PM by SEBNN »

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2007, 08:32:55 PM »
I think making the losing plaintiffs pay the defendants' legal fees would resolve that problem too.  If you put the burden of proof on the plaintiff rather than on the defendant, then those tests may become less important for defense in court.

I'd also be curious about how many of those seemingly unneeded tests have resulted in  early diagnosis of other conditions.  In some sick way, maybe the frivolous malpractice lawsuits have helped save lives!

Quote
Frivolous malpractice lawsuits are definitely the biggest health care problem in the US.  Make the plaintiff pay the legal defense fees of the doctors they sue if they lose.  Then, only cases with real merit would be accepted by contingency-based attorneys.  ALL civil lawsuits should have the same restrictions.

Actually, the greatest, long-term impacts stemming from this area are the additional hospital/physician costs associated with "defensive medicine" aimed at avoiding lawsuits. They just go unnoticed by the general public in the form of tests and procedures we assume are necessary.

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2007, 08:36:27 PM »
Damn SEBNN, you are one hard-working dude.  All that without complaining, too.  I think you're doing a great job.  You should be proud of yourself (and it sounds like you already know that, too).
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Offline Joel

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2007, 08:44:37 PM »
I think making the losing plaintiffs pay the defendants' legal fees would resolve that problem too.  If you put the burden of proof on the plaintiff rather than on the defendant, then those tests may become less important for defense in court.

I think this would be a fantastic way to reduce frivolous lawsuits in the justice system.

Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2007, 09:03:26 PM »
Damn SEBNN, you are one hard-working dude.  All that without complaining, too.  I think you're doing a great job.  You should be proud of yourself (and it sounds like you already know that, too).

Not hard working, lazy!  I have complained quite a few times about the work, which led to finding a better job.  All of those jobs taught me I didn't want to work for a living :), thats why I got a degree.  Oddly enough though I find that I spend as much time in the shop working as I do on the computer.  Really it is that I always want something more and I've found that the best way to get what I want is to work, earn money, live somewhat frugally, gain more knowledge and experience so that I can make more money and repeat.  As much as I would love to work on my motorcycle all day, I find that my work is more enjoyable and this translates into my hobbies being more enjoyable when I get to do them. 

Anyways, I believe that anyone can do it if they will get off of their butts and start trying.  Also, that giving people the basics of a comfortable life do not help them to want to get off their butts.  This leads to generations of people who leach off of others simply because thats how their family and neighbors do it and have done it.  How many immigrants worked hard to provide for their families so that their kids would have a better chance than they did?  How many sat around waiting to be showered with care and comfort.  That said, I still donate to charities, give money to beggers, pay my taxes each year, and hope that someone else will take the opportunities that are in this country for everyone and anyone to take.

Forgot a couple, hauled pig manure and spread it on fields, hauled cow manure, milked cows, castrated pigs (now thats a fun job  :P), branded calves, herded cows, concrete work, framing work, roofing work, siding work, operated heavy construction equipment (backhoes, dozers, loaders, etc), recycled scrap metal (made some money, but did it mainly for fun), and installed water lines and pumps, and installed sewage handling pumps.  Yuhp, I've lived a full life with a lot of different jobs and I wouldn't trade it for a free ride from the government or anyone else.  Besides, I got to ride my old dirtbike when I had spare time.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 09:14:22 PM by SEBNN »

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2007, 02:58:25 AM »
SEBNN,

Quote
High School Students and college students fit the bill perfectly!  I have worked in fields bucking hay, delivered pizza, done custodial work, driven school buses, some OTR trucking, telequestionairing, worked at a help desk, mentored other students, operated a combine, moved irrigation pipes, tilled crops, worked as a research assistant, separated dirt clods and rocks from potatoes, operated a furniture business, sold sporting goods at a retail store, sold building supplies at a retail store, rebuilt a pickup engine, demolished and renovated old buildings.  I have done all of these things for money.  Did I also mention that I am not even 30 years old yet.  None of these jobs were for me to make a living, just to save money or make money for school and pay the bills.

Did all of these positions include health care coverage?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2007, 05:37:49 AM »
I just see a wrong premise on the argument. It is true that if you want success, you have to work hard, but the opposite is not always true. Google creators, Apple creators, sure worked hard, but many people like them worked hard too and had less luck or chose the wrong business at the wrong time. There is only one CEO per corporation, and in each corporation there are many people working hard to become CEO. Working hard is a "conditio sine qua non" for success, but it is no guarantee. "Life is what happens while you make plans". No matter what your plans are, life will deal his deck of cards and you need a little luck to get a good hand.



Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2007, 06:03:54 AM »
No Raul, we can't all be billionaire CEOs, nor do we need to be in order to have good jobs with health insurance.

If you measure your success by how many billions you have in the bank, then you will be a very unhappy person, unless you are extremely lucky.  Hard work has little to do with being a billionaire vs. merely being successful.

Instead, measure your success by how independent, self-sufficient, fulfilled you are, and you just might find that those goals are attainable with some effort.

God helps those that help themselves.
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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2007, 06:28:42 AM »
First you say a person needs to work hard now you say hard work does not matter? What a reversal ed. Anything to support your view I guess. You should run for public office. You could be as much a failure as rudy.

Offline andy750

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2007, 06:45:00 AM »
God helps those that help themselves.

And this can be your campaign slogan - you would definitely appeal to the right-wing Christian fundamentalists with such a "Christian" attitude....I guess I must have read the Bible wrong when it said "help those in need"....but then why would someone invoke religion in a debate about health care insurance??  ::) ???
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2007, 06:59:29 AM »
No Raul, we can't all be billionaire CEOs, nor do we need to be in order to have good jobs with health insurance.

If you measure your success by how many billions you have in the bank, then you will be a very unhappy person, unless you are extremely lucky.  Hard work has little to do with being a billionaire vs. merely being successful.

Instead, measure your success by how independent, self-sufficient, fulfilled you are, and you just might find that those goals are attainable with some effort.

God helps those that help themselves.


Ok, then let's set lower goals. Just say "to work in a big corporation". There are far less good jobs that applicants. Some of them will be ruled out, not because they don't qualify, just because there are more applicants that qualify than jobs.

Now let's consider nature -or God-, that doesn't give the same IQ to everybody. What should the people that are less fortunate to have a lower IQ and don't qualify for the good universities do?

I spend a lot of time setting up my bikes, making sure everything works. I carry tools with me and have road assistance. I think that next time I see somebody broken down on the road side I will just go away. I don't have to waste my time if they don't have enough skill to learn how to mantain his bike, or simply forgot to fill up, or was unlucky to ride over a nail. It's not my problem if they forgot to get his cell phone or it run out of battery, or they don't have roadside assistance.


I don't know Ed, what you say is full of logic, but there is something about it that makes me feel sad.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2007, 07:15:16 AM »
Go back and try reading what I wrote.  Comprehension is obviously not your forte.

First you say a person needs to work hard now you say hard work does not matter? What a reversal ed. Anything to support your view I guess. You should run for public office. You could be as much a failure as rudy.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2007, 07:19:53 AM »
It is called "work ethic".  And now I'm a "fundamentalist" too.  Ha!  You are hopeless.

God helps those that help themselves.

And this can be your campaign slogan - you would definitely appeal to the right-wing Christian fundamentalists with such a "Christian" attitude....I guess I must have read the Bible wrong when it said "help those in need"....but then why would someone invoke religion in a debate about health care insurance??  ::) ???
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