Author Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.  (Read 23199 times)

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upperlake04

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2007, 07:24:29 AM »
Hey boys - you could try rock paper scissors ;D ;D

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2007, 07:26:09 AM »
I don't understand what it is about socialism that you guys seem to feel is so charitable.  The bottom line is, socialism is the government stealing money from hard working people under threat of imprisonment, and re-distributing it, rather than allowing the hard working people to decide what to do with their own money.

There is nothing charitable or noble about that.  It is government oppression and just another form of forced labor.

No Raul, we can't all be billionaire CEOs, nor do we need to be in order to have good jobs with health insurance.

If you measure your success by how many billions you have in the bank, then you will be a very unhappy person, unless you are extremely lucky.  Hard work has little to do with being a billionaire vs. merely being successful.

Instead, measure your success by how independent, self-sufficient, fulfilled you are, and you just might find that those goals are attainable with some effort.

God helps those that help themselves.


Ok, then let's set lower goals. Just say "to work in a big corporation". There are far less good jobs that applicants. Some of them will be ruled out, not because they don't qualify, just because there are more applicants that qualify than jobs.

Now let's consider nature -or God-, that doesn't give the same IQ to everybody. What should the people that are less fortunate to have a lower IQ and don't qualify for the good universities do?

I spend a lot of time setting up my bikes, making sure everything works. I carry tools with me and have road assistance. I think that next time I see somebody broken down on the road side I will just go away. I don't have to waste my time if they don't have enough skill to learn how to mantain his bike, or simply forgot to fill up, or was unlucky to ride over a nail. It's not my problem if they forgot to get his cell phone or it run out of battery, or they don't have roadside assistance.


I don't know Ed, what you say is full of logic, but there is something about it that makes me feel sad.
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Offline my78k

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2007, 07:27:20 AM »
I will steer clear of the mud slinging etc (I will stick around to watch it though! As sometimes it can be funny as hell...) and just say this...I am glad that the vast majority of Americans are firm believers that the USA is the greatest country in the world. I will say however that at times you guys can be such fierce defenders that you are not always the most objective. I know I will get slammed for generalizing here and I will whole heartedly admit that it is a generalized statement (I can not comment on each of the 300 million or so of you!). Being proud of your country is not a bad thing!!! Aloowing that pride to blur your vision though is another story...

All I can tell you is that I live north of the border and wouldn't trade our system for your's...ever!!

Sure it's not perfect and I gripe about my taxes etc etc but when I am ill or god forbid my children fall ill I know that I can get them the help they need! I too work for a large corporation and have health benefits (that supplement our OHIP coverage) but even if I didn't I could get basic help when in need.

Just my two cents from the great white north (the real best country in the world!)  ;)

Dennis


Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2007, 07:32:36 AM »
Raul, you bring a tear to my eye.  God bless you.  
I really admire your brain and insights.

Dude- your 8 layers are showing!

eldar

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2007, 07:50:17 AM »
Raul usually is pretty thoughtful in his statements. somE others coulD learn from him.

Offline andy750

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2007, 07:58:45 AM »
You are hopeless.
God helps those that help themselves.

Ed, you really have to stop buttering me up....first Im incompetent and now hopeless......you learn something new everyday....and who would have thought that God favoured the selfish individual.....I recommend you go to your local state-funded library (where your hard earned taxes are at work) and get a copy of the bible and have a good read....perhaps then you should practice what it preaches.....since you are such a good Christian fellow.  ::)

While you are at it pick up a copy of David Hulmes (Scottish philosopher) book "Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding." or any of his works...where he talks and about the benefit of a "society" over the individual. While I doubt it will change YOUR opinion it may educate you somewhat. I recommend you this author as his works were among those (you can google the "Scottish Enlightenment for reference) used as a basis for creating the American constitution and the type of society that was envisioned at the time. Many Americans still share this vision of a progressive society and many of these people are my friends. Sadly your view is not progressive in that direction. You rubbish other countries  with little real knowledge of how they work and operate. If thats not ignorant then I dont know what is. 

Thats all from me....

cheers
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Offline 333

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2007, 08:07:26 AM »
How is it that people read socialized medicine and leap to socialism.  Talk about taking something to an extreem just to make your point of view seem terrible.  Hmmm.  Republican politics of fear.

I told you guys a couple of pages ago.  Turn this into an oil thread or I start name calling!
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Offline my78k

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2007, 08:13:04 AM »
Wait a sec...I thought it WAS the oil threads that usually turn into name calling?!?!?!?  ;)

Dennis

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2007, 08:34:22 AM »
OK guys, this has been fun, but I've got to get back to work.

Later
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Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2007, 10:20:06 AM »
SEBNN,

Quote
High School Students and college students fit the bill perfectly!  I have worked in fields bucking hay, delivered pizza, done custodial work, driven school buses, some OTR trucking, telequestionairing, worked at a help desk, mentored other students, operated a combine, moved irrigation pipes, tilled crops, worked as a research assistant, separated dirt clods and rocks from potatoes, operated a furniture business, sold sporting goods at a retail store, sold building supplies at a retail store, rebuilt a pickup engine, demolished and renovated old buildings.  I have done all of these things for money.  Did I also mention that I am not even 30 years old yet.  None of these jobs were for me to make a living, just to save money or make money for school and pay the bills.

Did all of these positions include health care coverage?


Not a single one!  Like I said, they weren't careers, they were jobs to make money.  In High School I was under my parents health insurance, in college I was under my own, the colleges, or medicaid.  Of them, medicaid was the most comprehensive and cheapest (in direct costs).  That is where I am stuck is that I do not see how the present system is so bad and awful that we need to change it to universal, socialized health care.  (for those stuck on the leap from solialized health care to socialism, note they have the same root word).  My opinion is that the system is good and flawed.  Rather than add more beauracratic problems, perhaps we could fix the current system rather than adding more flawed systems that will be inefficient and cost more money.

As for ED's post about socialism I agree that we should go to voluntary donations for programs like this rather than socialism.  At work we are allowed to donate some of our annual leave to other employees that need it for sick leave, or to go help the people effected by Katrina.  Totally voluntary, not enforced by our benevolent employeer.

As for Raul's post (man I'm hitting them all today) the only tear in my eye is your limited understanding of economics.  Currently in many technical fields there are not enough qualified individuals for all of them (great for me as I am in one of them).  Technical education and emphasis is on the decline.  Now, depending on what IQ you have been blessed with you can still find something to do.  My friend has never been able to do much in school (call it limited drive, intelligence, whatever) so he is going to technical training to be a mechanic, something that he does well.  This is called finding your niche in life and finding a way to make money at it.  If all of the "good" corperate jobs were filled with qualified personel then they spend money, this money is used to create other jobs (for qualified people), these people now make money and spend it (creating more jobs), so forth.  Currently some jobs are moving over seas from the US, that is fine, if you can find people in another country qualified to do the same job for less (Dell support people named "John" with Indian accents don't count) then that is great.  That country should focus on improving what it does.  The US can then focus on the things that it does well and seek to improve them.  Unfortunatelly I think the US rather that adapting is starting to sit around wringing hands about how things aren't how they should be.  This extends from the "victims" who live below sea level next to the ocean who couldn't get flood insurance (because no one offers it when you have a 80% chance of flooding), to people in Detroit who don't understand why fewer US autos are being purchased, to politicians who can't figure out why their approval ratings have tanked.

Call me heartless and caulous, I've been called worse, but I think the basic problem is that people who are given things stop adapting and start complaining when they don't get everything that they feel they need.  This leads to our current problems of public entitlement and the attempt to increase payouts for socialized health care and other things.  If people adapt and find ways to make it in this world then we see fewer people waiting on the government to save them and more people who are successful. 

As for the statement about love it or leave it, if you feel some other country does it so much better, then go ahead and move there and live off of them.  This is not turning a blind eye to problems here, rather that if all you are going to do is complain, then move to were it is so much better.  If you see problems but are willing to work to fix them, then stay here and help us fix it.  Just don't sit on your arse gripping that everyone else isn't doing enough to make your life comfortable.  If you want life to be better, take a day off from work, figure out what you want, and then go get it.  Use all of the current social programs we have and do it, but just don't sit there and expect the world to shower you with meaning and happiness.

*As a side note on intelligence, I don't know that I have blessed with a monster IQ, though I have been blessed with ADD, minor OCD, and some dyslexia.  Once again, "if I can do it, anyone can do it" is not bragging, but encouragement for everyone else. 

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2007, 11:00:54 AM »
Societies, as a group of individuals, has as its primary goal its preservation. For such goal, common interest always prevail over individual interest. If there weren't societies, only the strong would survive. The only way that the weak could survive is if living in societies, where the society will look for the well being of their individuals, and they correspond by giving up his liberty, in what it concerns about damaging the society -individuals will not be allowed to damage other individuals or the society-. The society then forms a body, stronger than any of the individuals, that will protect the individuals and punish those who can damage, either individuals or other societies -countries-.

Individuals, just by being born, are given nationality, but an individual can always refuse nationality. That way he will be exempt of his obligations, but will also lose his rights. Society will look after the common interest, and for that reason will have the utmost power, to expropriate individual property if it deems necessary for the common interest -say road or dam construction-, and in some countries even to take the individual's life if it is dangerous for society.


If the society doesn't look after its individuals, it's deemed to disappear. Don't confuse "socialized" with "communism". It is perfectly fair that the society makes the one that are better off to support those less fortunate, because only then everybody will be able to be "middle class", and the society will have more chances to survive.

Have a look at societies with big class struggle. Say Mexico, where there is a small power elite and the rest of the population is in the verge of poverty. There is NO WAY to improve, even through hard labour, because the gap is so big that there is no way to get out of the ghetto. The result? Dirty rich people that need private armed security, and poor, hopeless people with nothing to loose, that will kill you for your wallet. Maybe the rich people shouldn't have been so greedy and let others get some too, so the whole society would be richer as a common group, at the expense of a little less money in the power elite's hands.

Obviously, there is lazy people everywhere, but that, for the whole society, is peanuts. Society needs money for the general expenditure, and for that, needs workforce and jobs. Society can't just expect people to go find a job, it needs to provision for education, foresee future needs and handle the market to make sure that its industry is safe. If we live in a competitive job environment where you can get as far as hard as you work, we shouldn't complain when our companies find people more competitive somewhere else, eager to work harder than us and get lower wages. It is a competitive world, isn't it?

I'm no communist at all, there is no communist country where the utopia had proven true. But I don't think the answer is pure capitalism, letting the strong rise and leaving to each individual the responsability for his future. Society have to provision for their individuals, covering their basic needs, and then letting them naturally rise or fall depending of each individual value, but nobody starting from an advantage point.

Someday, a bulgarian IT engineer who fixes via an Internet connection the Vodafone STMP equipment that I used to fix, will tell me that I should have worked as hard as him to get a job like him, because working hard is the way to success. If Bulgaria or India had not implemented socialized education at the taxpayers money, they would not be getting our jobs now. They were clever enough to read the writings on the wall, invested in their individuals, and now are getting better as a whole. Maybe they should have let the hard workers climb the ladder and the lazy ones drown in poverty. How would have them, as a whole, be better off?

Offline DammitDan

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2007, 11:09:39 AM »
I don't understand what it is about socialism that you guys seem to feel is so charitable.  The bottom line is, socialism is the government stealing money from hard working people under threat of imprisonment, and re-distributing it, rather than allowing the hard working people to decide what to do with their own money.

There is nothing charitable or noble about that.  It is government oppression and just another form of forced labor.

What you just described is the IRS, not socialism.

What if we turned the table and said no more entitlements for people who can't afford them?  Should primary education be considered an entitlement?  A hell of a lot of poor kids go to grade school who wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise.  Like you said, there's no "right to education" written in the Constitution, so maybe only those who can pay for it should be the ones who can go to school.  By God, we'll get rid of that pesky bourgeois and just stick with the proletariat and the aristocracy.

(In my best British woman's accent:) "Oh, there's some lovely filth down here!"  ;D

*edit* dammit Raul you just said everything I just said, just more eloquently  :D
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 11:13:30 AM by DammitDan »
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Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2007, 11:12:38 AM »
Republic and Republican also have the same root words- and they're not even remotely related.

Why don't Dell support people in India named John count?

Your ecomics lesson has left out the chapte on corporate welfare.  Somebody please offer the informed rejoinder that there's no such thing...

As i said before, you never know when the rug will be pulled out from under you.  All during the '80's I made good money.  Had stock in Apple, Intel, Harley, etc.  Now it's all spent and I've sold 4 bikes and my car.  I'm not talking parts bikes, either. Nice Miata.  Now, if I make $1.00 over $900 a month, I lose my Disability and I'm on my own.  Even with Medicare Plan D I'm on my own while I'm in the so-called "donut hole" -the period in which you have NO coverage.  After 6 major operations, I don't think very well.  I forget things easily.  I'm competing for jobs college kids vie for.  
Medicare varies from state to state.  Apparently I should move to new York for the good life?  Live on welfare because I'm stupid and lazy (BTW- I graduated from college just before my 40th birthday)  Just using myself as an embarrassed example.

Well, I guess I don't remember if I had a point or not.  I used to be a pretty good writer.  I'm mostly upset with smug folks who have a very lmited cultural and social education.  
I used to be an artist, BTW.  Artists and craftsmen usually work for themselves and can't afford insurance.  
And down here in the South, even workers are afraid to whisper the word "union" out loud.  It's just not set up the way the rest of the country is.

That's all.
Dude- your 8 layers are showing!

Offline seaweb11

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2007, 12:00:45 PM »
An artist!!!!!!!!!  What a lazy bast$rd. No medical coverage for you!!!!!!!!!!
Who needs art anyway. ;D

nicely said, sorry to hear about your predicament.


Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #114 on: November 28, 2007, 12:12:30 PM »
Wonderful, we are all trying to get to the same point through 2 different routes.  Neither ED nor myself has argued that charity is bad.  Really, who says its fun to kick the poor and downtrodden and actually means it.  Our stand is that these things should be voluntary donations, your stand is that they should be mandatory parts of taxation (which is money forcibly removed from individuals for the betterment of society).  The whole movement of "for the good of society" is socialism.  Communism is one step further.  Capitalism is not a social model, rather an economic one.  As a republic (not as republicans, by the way I am an independant voter, more libertarian than anything) we have a constitution that guarantees certain rights allowing us the opportunities to succeed.  These rights basically keep the government and others from putting up barriers preventing equal treatment to the extent that they can enforce it.

Now, if a private not for profit organization wants to solicit donations for free medical care for poor people that is totally within their rights.  That is how it worked until someone found that poor people are a voting block and if they show how much they care for the poor they will get more votes.  That is when this has gone from helping people out of the good of our hearts to being required at threat of imprisonment to give money for social programs.  

On the subject of people who are down on their luck, ya got my sympathies and the sympathies of millions of others.  Now that we have that out of the way, what are you doing with your life to make it meaningful?  What do you do as hobbies that can be done as work, what do you want to do?  (If you are a quadrapalegic I bet the answer is walk, but I digress (see bloom county)).  I am all for helping people who are down to get back up and find a new direction.  I am not for helping people whose only desire is to be helped.  

On poor starving artists, I am not an artist because I am not a good enough artist to make a living as an artist.  Think about it, it'll come to you.  Sometimes we do things we love to do as hobbies because we can't make a living doing them as work.  I'll never race motorcross because I am quite frankly not that good.  I've accepted that and moved on to something that I can do well and get paid for including benefits.

Well, need to get back to work, or I will soon be on the downluck side looking for a new job.

Democracy and Democrat have the same root word and not even remotely related.

Social programs for the good of society are socialism when they are enacted at the expense of people to help society.

Good luck with what you are doing and I am sincerely hoping that things work out for you.  There is nothing worse than being able to work and unable to find work.

upperlake04

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2007, 12:14:26 PM »
Quote
I used to be an artist
 
  UE - you're still an artist, its a calling not a profession.

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #116 on: November 28, 2007, 12:42:32 PM »
I just noticed there are 2 seawebs- what the heck is a seaweb?!

Yannow- I don't mind a little work.  I've always paid my bills. 
I just wish the freakin government would get out of the way and out of my life!  Republicans used to stand for smaller government but it's getting so you can't even turn around without a permit or fee or fine.

And no one has mentioned that welfar and big breaks are bad for poor lazy dumb people, but great for big corporations.  Still waitng for that one.  It's a dare.

As for healthcare costs go- you can not sue a doctor in this state.  You need an expert witness and no one will testify because they know if they do they will never work in the medical field again.  You can't poop without a government permit, and the system is set up so you need a lawyer to get one.
 
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA  bye bye   I've had enough.
Dude- your 8 layers are showing!

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2007, 01:03:29 PM »
seaweb11  my second boats name.

Sea (ocean boat) Web ("internet" How I paid for it$$)             I think I'm the only one ???

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Offline my78k

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2007, 01:06:44 PM »
You're definitely one of a kind Seaweb!!!
I mean that both figuratively and literally....I checked the member list  ;)

Dennis

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #119 on: November 28, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »
OK Bobby, I'll have a couple shots.  I know you can take it since you are from NYC.

So instead of taking #$%* jobs that don't have health benefits, and then whining about it and trying to extort the benefits from the middle class, why not simply insist on getting benefits from your employer?  I for one, would never accept a job as an employee unless it had medical benefits.  Why can I be so smug about that, you ask?  Because I worked hard to get qualified enough to make demands of my potential employers.  What is this invisible hand that keeps the non-"shiftless-layabouts" from picking up a damned textbook and improving themselves?  I utilized the largely taxpayer-funded education system to better myself, plus I paid the minimal tuition required to attend.  Then I actually expended the energy to STUDY HARD so I could LEARN SOMETHING and graduate.

Your statement that employers don't offer health insurance due to "greed" is BS as well.  Employers offer the salary and benefits that are required in order to get the position filled.  If there are dumbasses around who are willing to work without getting benefits, then there is no reason why an employer should offer benefits.  If you don't like it, then ask your boss for benefits.  If he doesn't give them to you, then either improve yourself so you can get a better job, or put your loser tail between your legs and keep on being an unqualified, uneducated sucker.

If an employer can't afford benefits, then they can't afford to waste my time working for them.  They can't afford me.

Should we encourage people to screw themselves by NOT getting better qualifications and seeking better employment?  Obviously not.

Is it the WORKING-JOE TAXPAYER'S FAULT that the dumbass landscaper CHOSE to have 3 kids when he couldn't even afford to pay attention?  That's just plain stupid, and there's no reason in the world why I should have to pick up the slack for stupid.   I carefully avoided having children (and getting married) until I was in my 30's and I could afford to raise them properly, like any responsible person should.

Why should the very act of me doing smart things make me responsible for somebody else doing stupid things?

How is that fair in your mind?  In what ridiculous fantasy land is that fair?
You bet I can take it, and I can dish it out pretty good too. However, you I believe are not speaking about me personally. I grew up in a very deprived area known as Scarsdale NY, it was really tough on those mean streets.  I have two degrees so I too was able to eek my way through College, one private and the other a SUNY School.  I grew up well, actually very well and I have no guilt from having done so.

However, I know through personal interactions many who did not have it so good. I worked for 30 years for the largest IT company in the world and enjoyed excellent Medical benefits, and I still have pretty good benefits and a pension as a retiree.  In fact, I currently work for an employer that does offer benefits, but I do not use them, since I have better retiree benefits.

OK, I have a conscience, it may be my biggest failing. I had a simple Kidney Stone in the 1970's and I was taken to a very nice private Hospital and had a nice private room. I had two Doctors looking after my welfare and a few hot Nurses. I was laying there watching PBS Channel 13 in NY.
It was a documentary about NYC Hospitals. They showed people who could not even afford the bus fare to get free care, OK they were Welfare clients Ed, so what happens to them is of no concern to people such as us - we just have to suffer them.
Well a it showed a nice middle class working man was brought in with chest pains. The Doctors did not have the $6.00 set of leads to hook up to the external pacemaker, so the man died onscreen right before my eyes. The Doctors were cursing as they vainly tried  to save him and jury rig some other leads. I got mad Ed, I really did. Here I am with a simple Kidney stone and two top Doctors, and this poor pr1ck died for $6.00.

Ed, you have talents you were given and you figured out how to capitalize on them. While the Constitution says we are created equal, we aren't. Some people do not have the ability to go to College. My Mother had to pass on a full scholarship to Hunter College since she had to help support her parents after my Grandfather became disabled. Maybe many people are not so scary talented they can be so choosy about where they work, and have to take what honest work they can find.

Corporate greed is real. In Florida a very large number of very large stores only hire part time workers to avoid paying benefits, this includes the Managers. Other Companies are hiring mostly contractors for the same reason, don't believe it, just browse Dice.com where highly trained professionals are being offered contact positions with no benefits.

Now we have Citicorp about to lay off 45,000 people, who will lose their benefits. They too will take what work they can get to put food on the table.They are dumb since they picked the wrong employer, so they are now gonna get what they deserve. Oh my God, they may also have children so they are doubly dumb. These poor souls have no safety net.

On your utility bills in NY there is an MTA surcharge. The MTA employees do not pay for medical benefits while they are working or retired. I suggest you disconnect your phones and electrical service to avoid adding to this Union socialized welfare system. Also do not take the Subway, Bus, or cross a Bridge for the same reason.

Ed, you are probably and OK guy and I sense we would get along in person, but you have on several occasions displayed this I got mine the hard way syndrome. I have observed in others who feel themselves somehow above others forgrtting where they came from.  Maybe your passion just gives that impression.

I have been a Republican since 1971, done some awful things on the behalf of my Country and am generally conservative. I just have this thing called a conscience that tells me that some things are just not right.               
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 07:10:47 PM by BobbyR »
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Offline 333

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2007, 06:44:46 PM »
Warning- There will be exceptions to what will be said here.  Not all Republicans/Democrats fit the description expressed in this post.

Greed.  That's basically what we're talking about  Republicans are vocal with their greed, in that they don't think government should pay for these things we've been talking about(medicine/education...).  And basically the Democrats feel that enough isn't being done, either by the govt. or voluntarily, and want the government to step up and fill in the gaps.  And the truth is that the Dems are right.  For every PERSON, Republican or Democrat, that gives to the community, money or time, there are at least 10 people who don't give anything.  And that's probably a (no pun intended) a conservative estimate.  Unfortunatly, greed is part of human nature that none of us like to admit, and few who rise above.
 
Socialism.  There is a fine line between what we have here in America and socialism, at least by your(SEBNN) definition.  The difference  as I see it is we, as a people, decided(voted) what we wanted to provide in our society and then voted on how to pay for it(taxes).  With socialism, the people had no say, but were told it was for the people.  I think that's a big difference.  And I don't believe for a minute that the government will "go socialist" on us and do something about our healthcare problem without the help of Congress and The Senate(our voices).  Although I did hear a wild, wild rumor that Bush might try to pull some "emergency powers" cr@p and stop the 08 elections to stay in power.  Is that crazy, or what?

Now my soapbox time.  We need to put some real money and thought into our country.  We need health care for all.  We need better education, so we can get back on top.  We need to stop things like lead riddin products for our kids(a proven detriment to our IQ levels) and start making stuff(again) for us here in our country.  Didn't we invent the car?  I know we didn't invent television, but we certainly lead its entrance into our lives.  We dominated that industry for years!  Is there a GOOD reason we don't even make them here anymore?  I know, I know.  Cheaper and better.  But doesn't that get back to education?

This thread has grown hair.  It has brought out a lot of opinions, some that make sense, some that don't.  Here's mine.  Republicans have said that they big government doesn't work.  The way they do it proves it.  This mess in Iraq and pushing unwanted democracy down some countries throats is getting us a reputation I certainly don't want.   I only hope the Democrats come in with enough numbers in 08 to do the job.  And when I say enough, I mean more than we've had in many a year.

Now that I've stirred the poop, I'll just say I hope for Bobby's sake, the mods don't delete this thread.  It has been a lively discussion!
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2007, 07:57:40 PM »
You know, the sad thing about some of the previous posts has been the over-riding theme that selfishness is somehow fair, if a person has worked hard to get themselves into that position of selfishness.

In the Oz army, we have a similar cliche'd attitude, referred to as the "I'm alright Jack, fuuck you" syndrome. Anyone who openly displays this attitude are summarily dealt with, and so they should be. We are taught to work as both thinking individuals, and as a cohesive team.

I'd hate to be the poor bugger who is receiving the one-day-a-months worth of concience-relieving charity either. I can just imagine being lectured by some snobby middle-income earning boofhead about how I could have become president of the United States, had I studied harder, while I queu up for a warm meal at the local Salvation Army soup kitchen.

Being a selfish pr1ck for 353 days of the year and doing 12 days of charity work to show everyone what a great guy you are, or perhaps as insurance that God doesn't slam the pearly gates on your fingers, still makes you a selfish pr1ck. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2007, 09:05:34 PM »
Bobby, did you forget that I was born and raised in the Bronx?  Maybe only a couple miles from Scarsdale, but WORLDS APART!  Without getting into personal details, poverty and welfare are not foreign to me.  I am very proud of what I have accomplished from humble beginnings, and I certainly have nothing to feel guilty about.  I also don't begrudge you your obviously privileged upbringing.  There's nothing wrong with that, either.  Just don't go preaching about how tough it is to be poor, rich boy.

Hopefully soon we'll have a nice warm day and go for a ride.  Maybe we could meet up at Nathan's on Central Ave?  I used to flip hot-dogs there when I was 14.  Some of the best memories of my life are of working there and at Caldor's next door.  I used to take the bus up from the Bronx with all the Puerto Rican girls.  Life was a lot less complicated then, more fun, actually.  There's not much to worry about when you've got nothing to lose.

Bobby, I truly think we'll have a lot to talk about, and a lot of fun.  I suspect we won't be talking much about politics, though.  Is Cookie's on Central Ave. still around?  What about that little bar next door to the Harley dealer in Hartsdale?  Hey, I know, we could meet at the P&K's on 22 in Eastchester.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2007, 09:44:10 PM »
Terry, I'm more of a "teach a man to fish" guy, so you won't find me at a soup kitchen anymore.  I did it for a day once, but I could clearly see that handing out free food wasn't helping to solve the problem.

[EDIT 11/29/2007 11:25am EST:  As I mentioned earlier, I volunteer to drive elderly, disabled vets (who can no longer drive) to church, shopping and family events on some Sundays.  I'm not referring to feeding them at the soup kitchen.  And just in case anyone else is unclear on this, the two sentences below are purely said in jest!]

Usually when I try to tell those retired, disabled veterans how they can grow up and be president, they try to hit me with their walkers and canes.

The Child ID program is actually all about the MILFs.  Those hot mama's keep me coming back for more.  Don't let your wifey take the kids to a Child ID program when I'm on duty, Terry.  Taking the kids' dental impressions and fingerprints is just my clever ruse to convince Mommy that I'm a nice guy so I can get into her pants.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 08:30:07 AM by edbikerii »
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Offline SEBNN

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Re: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2007, 09:49:01 PM »
Ok, while using generalizations, Republicans (used to) believe in limited government and may the best man win (greed and selfishness).  Democrats (or progressives as they prefer over liberal) believe that a few know what is best for everyone and try to push their beliefs onto others as a way to help others.  They are not altruists, their motive is warm fuzzys and "look at me, I'm helping the underprivileged".  A mental greed, but selfish no less; democrat want to take from others to fill this injustice that they see, they are greedy for the power to take what others have earned and give it to further their particular cause.  Republicans just want to keep what’s theirs.  These extremes result in two worlds:
1)  Paupers graveyards, penthouse suites, and private jumbo jets for a few.

2)  Stagnating economy, companies moving overseas to find cheaper areas to reside, everything balanced to the lowest common denominator, and a chance that everyone is taken care of to the basics.

I think that the goal is somewhere between these two.  I do not think that giving (anything but) free health care is the solution.  I don't think that massive government intervention is the solution. 

We can all agree that the system is flawed and we can each point to respective systems that we think are right.  We can all agree that we don't want people to starve or die of the flu because there aren't enough hospital beds.  Where we differ is the extent, execution, and management of a system that works.  I'm betting if we actually sat around for a while bouncing ideas around that we would have a much better plan within a few hours.  This is largely because we are interested in helping people on both sides of the income spectrum; it also doesn't hurt that we don't have lobbyists lining our pockets to get pet projects introduced (such as only dell computers will be used (just an idea, not saying dell has ever done that)). 

My thoughts are that military and ex military (even guys in for 4 years active) get full coverage of medically relevant services (you'll have to pay for laser tattoo removal out of pocket).  Require a high school diploma and two years of active duty service for people to receive government benefits (including pelgrants and subsidized loans) if physically capable, even if it is a desk job for someone who is handicapped.  Require prior military service of yourself or/and an immediate family member as a requirement to serve in congress or president (sorry Jenna Bush, you’re going to Iraq and you'll be traveling with Harry Reid).  For everyone else there is Medicaid, food stamps, training programs and free education right up through high school.  And for the very disabled there is full medical coverage to cover whatever expenses the insurance, that you may or may not have, doesn't cover.  Laws regarding lawsuits would be changed to discourage frivolous lawsuits.  Redo some of the antitrust laws dealing with CEO's pay and fair compensation to reduce the guys making more in a year of retirement than all of us will in our entire lives combined.

College still costs money and requires some dedication.  I could go on and on, but I need to go watch another episode of House (on my television invented in the USA).  In the end it all boils down to doing what you can with what you have and then the government can step in and help, not the government stepping in and saying "don't do anything, we are here to help", while at the same time saying "hurry up and pay so that we can help them or else".  I have no problems paying taxes into a system that works.  I have millions of problems paying into a system that doesn't actually help anyone in the long run.  And with that I say adieu.