Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[Terry in Australia]

Kiwi-boy!

Dung Beetle!

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

'I don't want anybody here thinking that I'm taking a cheap shot at the US, I'm just saying that for a country so wealthy, it's hard to understand why there's so much opposition to taxpayers money being used to look after the health of American people?"

That's because most of the country's wealth is held by like 3% of it's population....You are either EXTREMELY Wealthy or just gettin by...or worse!

Dennis

The richest 20% of the population in the United States make approximately 50% of annual income.

The poorest 20% of the population makes less than 5% of annual income.

This is true and probably unaviodable due to many factors. While leveling the "wealth factor" is really not practical, we can however level the "health factor". The poorest people in the UK are healthter than high income US Americans.  

I do not want to use any of my "high school words" so....Prince Charles is ugly and probably a bastard child.

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

  Does anyone out there not believe she hates men?

Well I'm pretty sure she hates Bill, T2! And I'm not hugging you until you apologise for calling me a "Kiwi wannabe", hell, I never called you a "Mexican hopeful" did I? My feelings are still hurt!

T1
After you joined that union I just lost all respect.   "Kiwi wannabe" was a tad strong though,........ let's leave it at "Castro hugger".   You Homo.  (I learned that word in grade school).

In respect of the thread and 333,  Gas cost to much for me to drive to Canada for health care.  I know their system is much worst than ours today, but the one thing we (USA) can do is build a goverment program that can make just about anything not work at all.   

[Terry in Australia]

Geez T2, I don't mind you calling me a Homo and saying that Charlie's a bastaard (although I think you mean young prince Harry, it's well known that he's Diana's son, but not Charles') but don't be saying anything bad about the union mate, or I'll get my "brothers" on your side of the pond to pay you a visit! (I love being in the union, it's cooler than the mafia.........) Cheers, T1.

[BobbyR]

Geez T2, I don't mind you calling me a Homo and saying that Charlie's a bastaard (although I think you mean young prince Harry, it's well known that he's Diana's son, but not Charles') but don't be saying anything bad about the union mate, or I'll get my "brothers" on your side of the pond to pay you a visit! (I love being in the union, it's cooler than the mafia.........) Cheers, T1.

I think I will start a new thread for you two. What would poor Capt Cook say if he saw this behavior. There would be no rum ration for you two.

[eldar]

Dung beetle? Thats the rust found on a K1!  I didnt know unions accepted Kiwis!

[Terry in Australia]

I didnt know unions accepted Kiwis!

It's the only way those bludgers can get a job!

[Uncle Ernie]

Getting off topic, but that's a very good point about prisons.  Don't we have maore people in prison than anywhere?

I'm curious as to what all these welfare programs are that the citizens are wasting so much money on. 

And STILL no one is addressing all the breaks and loopholes provided corporations in a desperate bid to get them to open up shops locally.  Like;
reduced or cancelled property taxes, low or no cost utilities, building roads to the plants, spending millions so that a few (perhaps a couple hundred) people can have a job where they pay full income and sales taxes.
Then there are the tariffs to restrict foreign products.  Then the big guys don't pay ANY taxes for a few years then move the headquarters to an island so they can't be touched.  Big companies are making big money off the war in Iraq, the black market has never been so good and who knows where the reported thousands of guns went and where the couple million of unaccounted money went?  Meanwhile the upper crust Republicans complain the Democrats are letting some lady in southside Chicago get too many food stamps. 


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA











  stop!  you're killin me here!

[BobbyR]

If I agreed with you I would be accused of being a bleeding heart, commie pinko socialist, anti American traitor. If I disagreed with you I would be a liar.

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

bleeding heart, commie pinko socialist, anti American traitor

[SEBNN]

bleeding heart, commie pinko socialist, anti American traitor

Why call him that, he never actually stated a position, rather he refused to state a position, thereby solidifying his thigh-grip on the fence .  Very much politician speak.

[my78k]

Weel as Rushoid could tell you...."If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"....but I digress....

Dennis

[Uncle Ernie]

My position is completely unrealistic;  I wish people would be consistant.   Certain people laud "free trade" and complain about "welfare".  Yet these same people seem to have no problem with the government bailing out banks even though the banks should be responsible for their own bad business decisions.  The freeze on sub-prime interest rate usury is a current example.  The banks seem to have forgotten the exact same thing was happening in the late '80's / early '90's.  So- not many people will benefit from all the restrictions, but I suppose it helps... Yet the rates are still going to go through the roof in five years.  Are stupid people who took these loans out going to be making so much more money in 5 years?
(If anyone here took out one of those loans, "sorry", but what the heck were you thinking?)

I really like the idea of a flat national sales tax.  The more money you have, the more you spend and the more you're taxed. 
I think welfare should be graduated, or tiered.  The way it's set up now makes it very difficult to make things better.  You make $1 over the limit- and you're cut off completely.  It's earier and safer to take government assistance.  You think someone can just wake up one day and decide to get a job for a change?

I think the Bush administration is either the most corrupt yet, or too stupid to cover their tracks- I haven't decided which, yet.  For "the greatest nation" to have one of the highest infant mortality rates and be so low in math and science is deplorable.  Just as the American auto makers lived in a dream world for too many years while the writing was emblazoned on the walls in neon, the American government is losing it's standing in the world.  They are smug, self-asssured, and don't get it.

The reason I don't go to another country is because I don't want to.  Anyone who gives up on a marriage because there are a couple of problems is weak and, really, without morals.  To claim someone is UnAmerican just because they want to identify some problems and fix them is extremely narrow-minded, simplistic, and displays an inability to actually think.  Defensiveness borne of fear and insecurity.  "America- Love It Or Leave It" does not demonstrate the true American spirit at all.

Did anyone ever tell me if there is a spell check around here?

[Bob Wessner]

Consider running as an independent and I'll vote for you.

[BobbyR]

You are spot on Ernie. The US was founded on dissent and the founding fathers wrote that into the Constitution under freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. The US hold the worlds record for one continous government. They knew what they were doing, and they knew why they were doing it,who  as they were part of the privileaged class themselves.
It is very easy to be a sheep and be told where to move, and we know the end result of that. Welfare is a curse, it practically destroyed a segment of the population. Oh yeah, I guess I should point out Nation wide more Whites are on welfare than any other group. In NY they are giving welfare clients public service jobs to do to earn their checks. I work in a really bad area right on the Bronx border. Every day guys in orange vests fan out and clean the streets, and they do the job. One fellow cleans the street outside our plant and it is spotless. We all know him and he asked if his kid could get a job. The kid was hired and he hauled materials around the shop floor while he got his GED. He had to haul steel in and out of the welding stations, he got to know the welders so he took a welding courses. He is now certified to work on rail equipment which means his test welds needed to be sent out for independent testing. He now makes $40 and hour has a Condo and his kids who go to School and he pays TAXES.
It is very American to lend a helping hand, It is very American to speak up when you see something wrong. Wrapping yourself in the flag  and declaring all is well, well that is just plain dumb.
Who do you need to know to get some spellcheck around here?     

[Bob Wessner]

Who do you need to know to get some spellcheck around here?     

This has been mentioned before. It seems to be a server issue. I'll post something in the Mods Forum. I use Google's Toolbar spellcheck.

[333]

Spell check is apparently gone.  It has been discussed in the feedback section, but I still don't know if something will be done about it.  The popular advice is to change or upgrade your browser.  I use Netscape Navigator, which has a somewhat lame spell checker.  It will tell you if you misspelled, but won't tell you the correct spelling!

Uncle Ernie, I'm not going to paste your last post here, but I couldn't agree more.  Although I'm not sure about the flat sales tax idea, but I don't have a better one.  And your previous post on welfare is also dead on.  At my age(50) , it no longer surprises me what Republicans will complain about when a real injustice occurs.

[paulages]

curious question to ed and company: how do you feel about military spending?

how about the roads you ride your motorcycle on? or public education, as has already been mentioned? where exactly is the bar set for "socialism" in the U.S.? i don't believe the I.R.S. even operates within constitutionally legal boundaries (not to mention income tax being incredibly regressive), nor do i like the idea of government coercion in any form. as long as i continue to exist within this civilization i will, however, voluntarily pay a portion of what i have back in order to have the things that are sensible for us to coexist comfortably. is that socialism? if so, sign me up.

it's bizarre to me how some people don't bat an eyelash at trillions of dollars in military spending at the defense of private companies-- most of which have absolutely no allegiance to this particular nation-- but think that for government to exist for the general welfare of its citizens is theft.

either you believe that all commerce and self-governance should be done without the restraint, aid or even existence of government, or you believe in taxation to support government function in some manner.  if you truly believe the former, more power to you. i do believe in self-reliance and sustainability. in that world, step on my toes, and we'll have problems, or we'll learn to equitably compromise in order to coexist. wanna try anarchism? now that takes some mutual respect, hard work,  and self-determination. if, however, you believe the latter, there is clearly just a difference in opinion as to where the money should be spent.

in my opinion, they are stealing MY money in the name of corporate imperialism. education? medicare? public works? pennies to the dollar against military spending. tell you what--pull the plug on imperialist foreign policies, excess military spending, and corporate welfare and maybe we can talk about "handouts."

by the way, looking at the issue strictly from the perspective of financial efficiency, compare administrative spending of medicare vs. private medical insurance. medicare= less than 5%. HMO's= 25-25%. where are all those skyrocketing costs of medicine?

[Terry in Australia]

bleeding heart, commie pinko socialist, anti American traitor

It could be worse mate, he could be a K8 rider! Oh wait............................... he is!

[BobbyR]

bleeding heart, commie pinko socialist, anti American traitor

It could be worse mate, he could be a K8 rider! Oh wait............................... he is!

Well Mate it is true I am blessed to have a K8. All those parts are included in my K8 they left out of your K0. Now back to the point.

As far as my political leanings, I have been a Republican since 1971. Have no reason to change, I can for vote whomever I wish on election day.
As pointed out we have public roads, we have public libraries, and public schools. All of these were established for the public good. If everything were strictly Capitalist, there would be a toll booth at the border of each town, you would rent books, and pay tuition for primary education.
Medicine has advanced beyond where it was as little as 40 years ago. My Grandfather died during an operation for bleeding ulcers, today  one Nexium a day would have cleared that up. My favorite Uncle died because he was poor, his heart failed, but it could have been fixed. He did not have the resources to go where he needed to get his valve replaced. The charity wards he had to go to gave him pills, used him as a study aid for Interns. They sent him home to live as an invalid. He died at age 52.
If that had been my Father with his great medical benefits he would have gone and had his valve replaced and lived a decent life. My old man is 85 and still clears his own driveway of snow.
Proper Medical care should be available to all. It should not depend on your employer's choice of Insurance carrier, it should depend on your need. The decision as to what care you get should be dependent on you doctor's evaluation of what you need rather than what some Nurse or clerk at the XYZ Insurance Company decides you need.
There is a change coming over the US, you can feel it as you watch the news. It is happening in the heartland, not NY and LA. It is the heartland that the Politicos fear most.       

[edbikerii]

Alright guys, all this philosophical, idealogical crap is bringing a tear to my eye.

Is it really so hard for people to understand the difference between a helping hand (until you get on your feet) and a permanent hand-out?

[paulages]

Alright guys, all this philosophical, idealogical crap is bringing a tear to my eye.

Is it really so hard for people to understand the difference between a helping hand (until you get on your feet) and a permanent hand-out?

yeah... i wish those libraries and elementary schools would start charging people... freakin' freeloaders. 

[mark]

Libraries are cool. Literacy is a good thing and some folks have other things to spend their $ on than a stack of books.

40% or so of my property taxes go directly to local schools to educate somebody else's kids. I could have spent the $$ on some health insurance... or some bike parts... beer... whatever. I don't get to choose where the money goes. The govt. takes a wad of bucks and I didn't even get a lousy t-shirt. At least it keeps the brats off the streets.

The same tax bill also has a few bucks for the county hospital. An undocumented immigrant could go in there and get open-heart surgery for free. I could go there if I needed to. They would send me a bill(inflated to cover a chunk of that unpaid heart surgery) and sic a collection agency on me if I didn't pay it. Then my credit rating would go to hell and that would make my car insurance go up and..........

[SEBNN]

curious question to ed and company: how do you feel about military spending?

how about the roads you ride your motorcycle on? or public education, as has already been mentioned? where exactly is the bar set for "socialism" in the U.S.? i don't believe the I.R.S. even operates within constitutionally legal boundaries (not to mention income tax being incredibly regressive), nor do i like the idea of government coercion in any form. as long as i continue to exist within this civilization i will, however, voluntarily pay a portion of what i have back in order to have the things that are sensible for us to coexist comfortably. is that socialism? if so, sign me up.

it's bizarre to me how some people don't bat an eyelash at trillions of dollars in military spending at the defense of private companies-- most of which have absolutely no allegiance to this particular nation-- but think that for government to exist for the general welfare of its citizens is theft.

either you believe that all commerce and self-governance should be done without the restraint, aid or even existence of government, or you believe in taxation to support government function in some manner.  if you truly believe the former, more power to you. i do believe in self-reliance and sustainability. in that world, step on my toes, and we'll have problems, or we'll learn to equitably compromise in order to coexist. wanna try anarchism? now that takes some mutual respect, hard work,  and self-determination. if, however, you believe the latter, there is clearly just a difference in opinion as to where the money should be spent.

in my opinion, they are stealing MY money in the name of corporate imperialism. education? medicare? public works? pennies to the dollar against military spending. tell you what--pull the plug on imperialist foreign policies, excess military spending, and corporate welfare and maybe we can talk about "handouts."

by the way, looking at the issue strictly from the perspective of financial efficiency, compare administrative spending of medicare vs. private medical insurance. medicare= less than 5%. HMO's= 25-25%. where are all those skyrocketing costs of medicine?

Are any of the systems or programs that you mentioned perfect?  Our education system is a pit, our student's test scores are worse than our standard of healthcare, our roads have potholes, and our national defense is severely hampered by a bloated government and a congress that can't seem to do anything without taking a pole and posturing for whichever electorate they feel will help them keep their job.  I do not think that anyone who opposes socialized medicine does so because we want people to be unhealthy and suffer, we oppose it because we see the corruption and inefficiencies of government programs.  These programs waste our money (ever seen 5 road construction guys watching the 6th guy shovel asphalt) so we do not feel the need to give them more.  Why not work towards people helping others to get back on their feet and not giving the government one more way to waste money.

I had more, but deleted it.  Socialism is simply when the government is taking your money or possessions in order to provide for the common good as it dictates.  That is not a good thing because this removes peoples rights and places more emphasis on the government than the individual.  A republic country or a society is not made up of people serving the government which then serves the populace, rather by people who serve themselves and others with the government functioning as a higher power to solve disputes, enforce laws, and to provide for an organized national defense.  I have a view of government function that is very limited in power compared to the individual person, this to me is what the USA is about.  If the government feels that all people need healthcare, then it can look at what policies that it has that are causing problems and fix them first rather than jumping right to "we need to raise taxes so everyone can have healthcare".  The system is flawed and needs fixing, but throwing more money into the pit is not the answer.  That is all we are saying.  Helping people = good.  Giving the government more money and power to hand out to others = bad.  If giving poor people money and healthcare fixed problems we would have won the war on poverty in only a decade or two. 

Another good example is the department of agriculture.  If we took their annual budget and simply gave it to farmers, they could quit farming and be millionaires within a few short years. 

As for the military, there is tons of waste there, how about we find ways to trim the fat and keep them at full strength?  Why can't we demand spending reform from the government rather than demanding more money from the people?  Rather than get mad at "Ed and company" for being greedy bastards, why not get mad at the suit in DC pissing your money away to build a Woodstock museum or a beet museum or for a bridge to nowhere Alaska?  As pointed out earlier, the goal of politicians is to get us mad at each other rather than to take a closer look at the job that they are (not) doing.  If we really looked at what they are doing we would demand a change with our votes.

[Uncle Ernie]

I wish a vote was all it would take.
I pray this upcoming election will end up being more interesting than I have a feeling it will be.
Changing wasteful spending in the military is probably a more daunting task than invading Iran.