Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[scondon]

[quote author=edbikerii link=topic=28435.msg296454#msg296454

Again, Eldar, you've forgotten about Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty.

[/quote]

  Thank goodness Bill Clinton signed that Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act into law back in '96,eh

[edbikerii]

Right, the bill that Clinton vetoed twice, but could no longer avoid when the republican controlled congress presented it to him a third time in 1996.

Yes, 5 year limits, etc.  Excellent piece of legislation that was necessary to undo decades of government-induced poverty and misery created by democrats Johnson and FDR.

[quote author=edbikerii link=topic=28435.msg296454#msg296454

Again, Eldar, you've forgotten about Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty.

  Thank goodness Bill Clinton signed that Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act into law back in '96,eh
[/quote]

[scondon]

Right, the bill that Clinton vetoed twice, but could no longer avoid when the republican controlled congress presented it to him a third time in 1996.

 One could also argue that Clinton sent it back to Congress twice in order to get it right, couldn't one? A presidential veto is used for that purpose sometimes, isn't it?

     Don't get me wrong, I'm on the side of the American people-ALL of them. I believe in a country united. I don't believe the finger pointing puppets we call "Republican/Democrat" stands for us as a country at all. I like to hear discussion of ideas of ordinary people. When it begins to sound like a Fox news/CNN/insert your favorite talking head here soundbite I just think "there's another soul that's been bought". Makes me want to say something, like "snap out of it!!!!"

[edbikerii]

Well, we definitely agree on that, Scondon!

     Don't get me wrong, I'm on the side of the American people-ALL of them. I believe in a country united. I don't believe the finger pointing puppets we call "Republican/Democrat" stands for us as a country at all. I like to hear discussion of ideas of ordinary people. When it begins to sound like a Fox news/CNN/insert your favorite talking head here soundbite I just think "there's another soul that's been bought". Makes me want to say something, like "snap out of it!!!!"

[BobbyR]

I have seen this film, and although I might not use the same colorful language as Terry , I do support his opinion and share his experience. In fact, Michael Moore left out one part of the movie that was made about how health care (and a few other issues) are taken care of here in Norway. (M. Moore was afraid you Americans would claim it was based on pure fiction.)
Btw, United Nations Development Program (UNDP) has ranked Norway as having the highest standard of living in the world for four years in a row. The ranking is based largely on average levels of education and income, combined with expected length of lifetime. Sweden, Australia and Canada are next in line, while the United States is further down the scale. This year Iceland topped the list btw, but they are organizing their health care the same way as Norway, Australia and Canada.
To understand how this is possible in our countries you have to keep in mind that a conservative politician in our part of the world are considered to be very liberal, a left wing, in USA. So I guess you can say the rest of us (and that is the majority here in Norway) are are commies.

I think Ibsen brings up a good point. Can all of these other Countries make something work well and we can't. I think not. Why are drugs cheaper in Canada than on this side of the border? Because the Canadian Government negotiated the price as did most of Europe. Where can they charge whatever they want to boost their profits, you guessed it the USA. Your health carrier cheaps you out on what drugs they will pay for, so you get sent to over the counter or some outdated drug.  So, everytime someone buys some pills in one of these countries we are subsidizing it.
It is time the US begins importing ideas from overseas and not think we have all of the answers. Being able to lay waste to almost any Country does not improve our quality of life here.     

[S-Dog]

Did I tell everyone I loved them?


....Well I do!!!   

[edbikerii]

I hate to belabor the point, but this is not entirely true.  We, as Americans, pay for the FDA testing, which is admittedly very expensive and time consuming.  This adds significantly to the cost of the drugs in the USA.  While it is not perfect, one excellent thing about FDA testing is that it often eliminates drugs that don't actually do anything from the marketplace.  Many drugs fail to get FDA approval simply because they just don't work.  Now, if you've ever been lucky enough to have survived chemotherapy, you'll understand why taking sometimes extremely toxic drugs that don't actually do anything (except make you sicker) is a Very Bad Thing.

Nations without this stringent testing also benefit from the knowledge gained from our FDA testing.  If I were a Canadian and I had a doctor prescribe me a chemotherapy agent that I knew would make me sick, and American FDA testing had demonstrated that there was very little benefit, I would refuse treatment with that chemotherapy agent.  In fact, I would prompty find myself a better doctor.

Yes, some cancer patients take the time to check up on their doctors, too.

Norway can only afford to be socialist due to massive offshore-oil and hydro-electric-power revenue.  Their biggest export, Aluminum, is a direct product of their largest import, Bauxite.  The key resource that Norway has that allows them to add value is hydro-electric power.  Without the oil and the rivers, Norway would be completely bankrupt, and their socialist system un-sustainable.

I have seen this film, and although I might not use the same colorful language as Terry , I do support his opinion and share his experience. In fact, Michael Moore left out one part of the movie that was made about how health care (and a few other issues) are taken care of here in Norway. (M. Moore was afraid you Americans would claim it was based on pure fiction.)
Btw, United Nations Development Program (UNDP) has ranked Norway as having the highest standard of living in the world for four years in a row. The ranking is based largely on average levels of education and income, combined with expected length of lifetime. Sweden, Australia and Canada are next in line, while the United States is further down the scale. This year Iceland topped the list btw, but they are organizing their health care the same way as Norway, Australia and Canada.
To understand how this is possible in our countries you have to keep in mind that a conservative politician in our part of the world are considered to be very liberal, a left wing, in USA. So I guess you can say the rest of us (and that is the majority here in Norway) are are commies.

I think Ibsen brings up a good point. Can all of these other Countries make something work well and we can't. I think not. Why are drugs cheaper in Canada than on this side of the border? Because the Canadian Government negotiated the price as did most of Europe. Where can they charge whatever they want to boost their profits, you guessed it the USA. Your health carrier cheaps you out on what drugs they will pay for, so you get sent to over the counter or some outdated drug.  So, everytime someone buys some pills in one of these countries we are subsidizing it.
It is time the US begins importing ideas from overseas and not think we have all of the answers. Being able to lay waste to almost any Country does not improve our quality of life here.     

[seaweb11]

I just saw something on TV the other day about DR.s in the US charging for medications at pretty much what the market will pay.  A Dr. on one side of town will charge x amount and another will charge more.  How can that be good?  I suppose if you are sick and at your Doctors office you should say. OK I'll be back in a few days after I research out my prescription costs

They interviewed a guy who said people should look into their med costs before hand. Hu?

Canada
My B.C. med cost is $108.00 per month for 3 family members.
---------- $1296.00 per year, or $432.00 per year per person.
Covers anything from a cut finger to major surgery.

I personally have not had to burden the "communist system" with any doctor visits in years, so I suppose all the welfare rats are making out like bandits on my dollar, but I will need it one day when some guy turns left in front of me and my bike.

I suppose in the States  if at the age of 16 you put $300.00 away in a savings account every month, when you hit 55 and they want $140,000.00 for a transplant you will have it.

Works out the same, unless of course you used some of i$ earlier.

I'm just saying..........

P.S. we export wood shingles, "Oh wait...not anymore the poor US dollar has halted even that.
But we have TONS of WATER. what ever that means...........

[333]

Okay, Ed.  It's either :

"Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty."

Or:

"People on welfare in the projects buying crack and Cadillacs".

Which is it?

[SEBNN]

Wow, trying to take the time to respond to all of the pages that mysteriously appeared would take too much time and I would still just be pissin in the wind.  I've got work to do so that I can continue to contribute to society because that is where I am at in life.  I've been poor and I am currently lower middle class working 7-5 so I can keep the heat on and occasionally pick up some parts on Eblay.  Personally I don't see either political side having much interest in anything other than doing whatever it takes to keep their "job".  Other than that, at this point in the discussion it would be more effective if we just sat here hitting each other with sticks.  So in interest of closing this shameless post boost reply I will only say wow in reply to all that has been posted.













Just in case I didn't say it already, Wow!

[BobbyR]

Okay, Ed.  It's either :

"Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty."

Or:

"People on welfare in the projects buying crack and Cadillacs".

Which is it?

Rudy did a lot of good. He is not a nice person, but he gets the job done, and maybe that s what we need. The city was a pit of sh1t before he got there. Now it is cleaner and safer than it has been in decades.

Talking to former welfare clients who are now working. I can tell you welfare is no picnic now. That crack & Cadillac stuff is old Archie Bunker crap. The Drug dealers, who supply the drugs to the kids in the suburbs live in those neighborhoods and they have the cars.

Welfare now gives you rent money and a food allowance for a defined period. You will be offered and expected to get a job. Some have been moved into jobs like subway car cleaners, traffic enforcement agents etc.

A national healthcare program is not meant expressly for the poor, they will always get some level of free care. It is meant for the working person who is shelling out heavy taxes and has to also shell out heavy premiums for health insurance.  It is for the small startup employer who could reinvest in their business and hopefully create more jobs, which is the basis of Capitalism at it's best.

Doctors and Hospitals are being squeezed by Insurance companies to a point they are closing. We have lost two in this area in 5 years.  The best orthopedist in my Brother's hospital just gave up and joined his familiy business. Young people are not going into medicine since it is almost impossible to start a practice and pay off several hundreds of thousands in student loans at the same time.
It is time we stop knocking Countries that are making it work, study how they do it, and join the rest of the civilized World.     

[edbikerii]

First, the "Crack and Cadillacs" quote, while brilliant, isn't mine.

However, it is easy enough to explain it if you've ever had to live surrounded by people with the welfare mentality.  You see, they live in a retail marketing driven fantasy land where owning a Mercedes with 22" rims is more important than getting a college education and taking care of their families.  They pay more every month for premium cable TV channels and pay-per-view than working people pay for health and disability insurance.  They spend the welfare checks on cars, fashion, "bling", nintendo and crack, and not a penny on improving themselves.  They know how to work the system for every last dime, but cannot write intelligently enough to fill out a job application or a resume.  They can't lift a finger to help themselves, for fear that they will earn money and disqualify themselves from their monthly hand-outs.  If you ever doubt this, then try sitting for a couple hours at the welfare office in any major city.  Just listen to the people on line and see what creative excuses they share with one another.

I guess I'm jaded because I grew up with it.  I've heard every lame excuse that you can imagine:
My boss fired me because he's a *whatever*.
I was late every day because I had to *whatever*.
I couldn't get to the job interview because *whatever*.
I was clean for x weeks, but then *whatever*, and I went back, but I'm gonna quit next week.
I'm gonna get a job as soon as *whatever*.
I'll get a job when I have finished *whatever* -- I'm almost done.
When the babies are *whatever*, I'll get a job.
I was on my way to the job interview, but my cousin *whatever*.
I couldn't go to class because I didn't do my *whatever*.
I couldn't get good grades because my teacher *whatever*.
I had to fight him because he said *whatever*.
That cop was such a *whatever* because he did "whatever*.

...
...
...
and on, and on and on, neverending.

Okay, Ed.  It's either :

"Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty."

Or:

"People on welfare in the projects buying crack and Cadillacs".

Which is it?

[DammitDan]

They pay more every month for premium cable TV channels and pay-per-view than working people pay for health and disability insurance.  They spend the welfare checks on cars, fashion, "bling", nintendo and crack, and not a penny on improving themselves.  They know how to work the system for every last dime, but cannot write intelligently enough to fill out a job application or a resume.

Do you have any evidence of this, BESIDES superficial personal observation or conservative propaganda spewn forth from the likes of Bill O'Really or Michael 'Master Race' Savage?

The sad fact is that the opportunity for education in income-assisted housing areas is simply dismal.  For example, Maplewood Highschool (in Nashville, TN) is 94% free or reduced lunch (as opposed to 20% in the rest of the school system), 78% black, 20% white (as opposed to ~80% white, 20% black in the rest of the school system), and graduation rates have dropped as low as 40% in the last few years.  My sister worked there as a biology teacher for a year.  While she was there she had a "class set" of textbooks that could not leave the room and had to be shared between all of her classes.  She didn't have enough desks for all the students (which was at the max load set by the state).  She tried as hard as she could, but she couldn't take the stress of trying to teach 160 unruly kids who could barely even read in some cases.

Now, I'm guessing you're going to tell me it should be EASY for someone stuck in that school to succeed, from an area where being smart makes you a target of ridicule, an area where trying to do "the right thing" isn't cool?  Just imagine if 90% of the people around you just gave up trying to succeed, because succeeding automatically made you an outcast.  Would you still want to succeed, if it meant being different from almost everyone else?

"Well, I wouldn't care what other people thought and try to learn anyway."  Sure, you wouldn't care right up until you got the #$%* kicked out of you after school (or in class, for that matter) for being different, or got your house shot up for telling the wrong person to be quiet in class because you were trying to learn.  Remember when you were a teenager, how much peer pressure affected your life?  Not only is it "not cool" to be smart in such a broken system, it's dangerous.

So many people out there just see the bling and the cars and the clothes, and they automatically assume that it should be easy for that person to change and become a normal member of society.  But when someone grows up in a part of society where no one really cares about them from day one, one become jaded and rejects that which is commonly seen as "the right way."

[edbikerii]

Dan, I hear ya man.  But you are wrong about my "superficial" personal observations.  I've repeatedly said that this was a very personal experience for me.  Frankly, I can't think of any better evidence than that.

You are also completely wrong about the OPPORTUNITY for education.  There is a public school system, and if their parents didn't have the welfare mentality as well, they would be expected to succeed, no matter how inconvenient or unpopular "being smart" is among their peers.  Again, the problem is the welfare mentality, not the public education system.

I had the same situation with shared textbooks when I went to public school, and frankly, I don't see a thing wrong with that on an elementary school level.

I never said it was easy to break out of that welfare mentality, I just said that democrat politicians are DELIBERATELY MAKING IT HARDER.  It is not easy to break the welfare dependency cycle, but it is definitely NECESSARY.

Moreover, you continually try to turn this into a racial issue.  It is not a racial issue for me.  Other personal observations I've made of poor white families is that they do exactly the same stupid things, except that their tastes tend to be a little different.

They pay more every month for premium cable TV channels and pay-per-view than working people pay for health and disability insurance.  They spend the welfare checks on cars, fashion, "bling", nintendo and crack, and not a penny on improving themselves.  They know how to work the system for every last dime, but cannot write intelligently enough to fill out a job application or a resume.

Do you have any evidence of this, BESIDES superficial personal observation or conservative propaganda spewn forth from the likes of Bill O'Really or Michael 'Master Race' Savage?

The sad fact is that the opportunity for education in income-assisted housing areas is simply dismal.  For example, Maplewood Highschool (in Nashville, TN) is 94% free or reduced lunch (as opposed to 20% in the rest of the school system), 78% black, 20% white (as opposed to ~80% white, 20% black in the rest of the school system), and graduation rates have dropped as low as 40% in the last few years.  My sister worked there as a biology teacher for a year.  While she was there she had a "class set" of textbooks that could not leave the room and had to be shared between all of her classes.  She didn't have enough desks for all the students (which was at the max load set by the state).  She tried as hard as she could, but she couldn't take the stress of trying to teach 160 unruly kids who could barely even read in some cases.

Now, I'm guessing you're going to tell me it should be EASY for someone stuck in that school to succeed, from an area where being smart makes you a target of ridicule, an area where trying to do "the right thing" isn't cool?  Just imagine if 90% of the people around you just gave up trying to succeed, because succeeding automatically made you an outcast.  Would you still want to succeed, if it meant being different from almost everyone else?

"Well, I wouldn't care what other people thought and try to learn anyway."  Sure, you wouldn't care right up until you got the #$%* kicked out of you after school (or in class, for that matter) for being different, or got your house shot up for telling the wrong person to be quiet in class because you were trying to learn.  Remember when you were a teenager, how much peer pressure affected your life?  Not only is it "not cool" to be smart in such a broken system, it's dangerous.

So many people out there just see the bling and the cars and the clothes, and they automatically assume that it should be easy for that person to change and become a normal member of society.  But when someone grows up in a part of society where no one really cares about them from day one, one become jaded and rejects that which is commonly seen as "the right way."

[mark]

First, the "Crack and Cadillacs" quote, while brilliant, isn't mine.

Universal healthcare was being called a welfare handout and the bit about Cadillacs and crack was thrown in to my spew as a sloppy tribute to Reagan's famed 'welfare queens in Cadillacs' epithet.
It was handled poorly. oops. my bad.


As for welfare..... Welfare is still with us and it costs us more than ever.
Instead of Caddys for the ghetto, it's no-bid contracts for Halliburton.
Instead of fixing the potholes in the streets in the inner city, it's building the new roads to the new golf courses in the suburbs.
Instead of making sure that our working citizens can afford to go to the doctor, we make sure that the CEOs of the companies they work for can afford to buy small countries.
And so on.



Remember the Michael Vick thread?.... A very early question was .. "What's a douche bag?". Some of us here are too young to recall Reagan and douche bags.
Remember when Beaver was a little kid on TV and Mr. ED was a horse that could talk?
Now they cant even say ED on the tube without spelling it out, and Mr. ED is probably the punchline to a joke about Bob Dole.


History can be interesting.

Carnegie got filthy rich selling steel then blew it all building libraries. damn freak.

When political campaigns were funded by railroads, Union Pacific got a 50' strip of land stretching halfway across the continent.

When GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil got together to rent some politicians; America's cities tore up their streetcar tracks and bought buses.

When Philip Morris and R.J.Reynolds were in charge; The Marlboro Man rode across the screen on channel 4 while Rock Hudson walked a mile for a Camel on channel 7.

When Uncle Ho wanted to nationalize the rubber plantations in IndoChina; Michelin cried to DeGaulle, who in turn whined to Eisenhower, and the M.A.C.V. was born.

Does the First Amendment really give telemarketers the right to sell us vinyl siding during dinner?

When State Farm, Allstate, and friends got with the program; states passed laws that said The Man could pull you over and ticket you for not having insurance.
The industry thinks the same would work for healthcare.

First Lady Hillary thought that letting lobbyists write 'bankruptcy reform' legislation was a rotten idea until she decided to run for the Senate - then some timely campaign funds changed her mind.
When the bankers were paying their dues, Congress couldn't have cared less if your Visa had a 20% interest rate that went up to 30% when you applied for a Sears card.

There used to be laws that prevented the pharmaceutical companies from advertising prescription-only medications to the general public. They spent many millions on many campaigns and now we all know about the perils of restless legs, overactive bladders, and limp weenies.
They spent more millions trying to keep pseudoephedrine out on the shelves where the tweekers could get as much as they wanted.

See a pattern here yet?

Put the pill pushers and the insurance folks together and universal health care becomes a commie plot to destroy the country.

Politicians have always been puppets - how they dance simply depends on who is pulling the strings.


Perhaps, for a change, Michael Moore has a point other than the one on his head... If backward countries like Cuba, Canada, Japan, UK,etc, can doctor everyone - why can't the World's Only Superpower?

Our foreign friends here seem to be looking at us and wondering pretty much the same thing.

I had twenty-some years of tender Kaiser care - the gov could hardly do much worse.


cheers.
 

[eldar]

Frankly, I can't think of any better evidence than that.

There is your problem. You think just cause you experienced it in one form that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

You know nothing. Try growing up around a reservation. See what it is really like. Hear on the news that Ft. Totten is getting a new High school with barely any windows then hear 10 years later they need a new one cause of all the damage done to their current one.

Sorry but you "welfare mentality" does not describe the problem at all. Most indians on the res never leave and never get an education, even if there is no welfare check.

Now, I'm guessing you're going to tell me it should be EASY for someone stuck in that school to succeed, from an area where being smart makes you a target of ridicule, an area where trying to do "the right thing" isn't cool?  Just imagine if 90% of the people around you just gave up trying to succeed, because succeeding automatically made you an outcast.  Would you still want to succeed, if it meant being different from almost everyone else?

"Well, I wouldn't care what other people thought and try to learn anyway."  Sure, you wouldn't care right up until you got the #$%* kicked out of you after school (or in class, for that matter) for being different, or got your house shot up for telling the wrong person to be quiet in class because you were trying to learn.  Remember when you were a teenager, how much peer pressure affected your life?  Not only is it "not cool" to be smart in such a broken system, it's dangerous

Dan has it right there. It is not a welfare mentality. It is a "I dont give a crap" mentality and a "I must not stand out" mentality.  This happens even in places where there is little welfare spending.

But of course I will be wrong cause it is not what you experienced.

[DammitDan]

Dan, I hear ya man.  But you are wrong about my "superficial" personal observations.  I've repeatedly said that this was a very personal experience for me.  Frankly, I can't think of any better evidence than that.

Personal observation is wishy washy as evidence when the witness is clearly biased.  Any judge or attorney will tell you that.  When all you choose to see coming out of the ghetto is cadillacs and gold watches, then that's all you're ever going to see... 

You wonder why it's so hard for these kids to break out when there are constant stereotypes constantly thrown in their faces by those who "want to help?"

You are also completely wrong about the OPPORTUNITY for education.  There is a public school system, and if their parents didn't have the welfare mentality as well, they would be expected to succeed, no matter how inconvenient or unpopular "being smart" is among their peers.  Again, the problem is the welfare mentality, not the public education system.

The public education system is the ONLY place where we can break the welfare mentality, because it's frankly the only place where these kids will get a perspective of what is possible outside the "crack and cadillacs."  Unfortunately many inner-city schools have some of the worst track records in existence. 

Why?  Because so many income-assisted people have passed through these schools already.  Why would you expect the parents to give a #$%* if they had the same experiences in the same schools that their children are now attending?  It's not the welfare system that's broken, it's the education system.

I had the same situation with shared textbooks when I went to public school, and frankly, I don't see a thing wrong with that on an elementary school level.

Well, why would they have a class set when the rest of the school system has textbooks for every student to take home and study?  This is highschool we're talking about...  Where at least some of the motivation is supposed to come from the student.  Hard to do homework when you don't have the tools, though. 

It's because this is a school where "unteachable" kids are dumped, and as little funding is pushed towards it as possible to save funding for the other "successful" schools.

40% graduation rate.  Just think about that.

I never said it was easy to break out of that welfare mentality, I just said that democrat politicians are DELIBERATELY MAKING IT HARDER.  It is not easy to break the welfare dependency cycle, but it is definitely NECESSARY.

I agree.  But the ways in which we want to fix it are completely different.  You want to "fix" it by taking away benefits, and if people starve then oh well, that was their problem they should have worked harder.  I want to fix it by giving less money to American Airlines and Haliburton, and instead reinvesting it in our childrens' future through education.

Moreover, you continually try to turn this into a racial issue.  It is not a racial issue for me.  Other personal observations I've made of poor white families is that they do exactly the same stupid things, except that their tastes tend to be a little different.

Alright, you're joking.  He's got to be joking.  Please tell me he's joking?

You dance around the issue and then say, "That's not what I was talking about."  Yeah, right.  Don't even try to play it off.

[333]

You're right, Ed.  You didn't make the crack and Cadillacs comment.  Madmark is taking credit, but I'd have said Sebnn made in regards to NYC.  Either way, in replying to my question you still contradict your Giuliani comment.  So again I ask; which is it?  Does Giuliani's program really work, or is really as bad as you say?  Do you remember 20 or so years ago when one of the election buzzwords was "welfare reform"?  When it came about, the abuses were tremendously reduced.  Sure, some still bend the rules.  I've seen beer bought with food stamps.  I'll paraphrase and stand by my earlier comment- If you lived in the projects, you'd drink pretty heavy too.

And Ed, you're the one who has it wrong about "OPPORTUNITY for education."  I haven't said much of my volunteerism, but here goes.  I give one day a week to a program that teaches 17-22 year old "kids"(I'm 50) carpentry skills through boatbuilding.  The Alexandria Seaport Foundation (alexandriaseaport.org) also teaches GED and driving education, all while paying them.  This teaches them work ethic, as there are incentives and demerits for good and bad behaviour.  When they graduate the 4 month program, they are given a job with the carpenters union as an apprentice carpenter.  Our director works with the union on a national level to get a similar program that they have to work.  The point I'm trying to make about opportunity for education is this.  There isn't much.  Our program only has enough room for 16 kids at one time.  Our "classes" are staggered, so 4 kids graduate each month.  We turn away at least 20 kids a month because of lack of money and room.  Most of the kids come from the school systems, some from the courts, and a few are refugees

[edbikerii]

Eldar, rather than trying to win an argument with you, which would be only a Pyrrhic victory at best, I'll merely point out that American Indians are quite a small minority of people on welfare, and they have a very different history and culture than the millions of poeple on welfare in major cities.

Frankly, I can't think of any better evidence than that.

There is your problem. You think just cause you experienced it in one form that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

You know nothing. Try growing up around a reservation. See what it is really like. Hear on the news that Ft. Totten is getting a new High school with barely any windows then hear 10 years later they need a new one cause of all the damage done to their current one.

Sorry but you "welfare mentality" does not describe the problem at all. Most indians on the res never leave and never get an education, even if there is no welfare check.

Now, I'm guessing you're going to tell me it should be EASY for someone stuck in that school to succeed, from an area where being smart makes you a target of ridicule, an area where trying to do "the right thing" isn't cool?  Just imagine if 90% of the people around you just gave up trying to succeed, because succeeding automatically made you an outcast.  Would you still want to succeed, if it meant being different from almost everyone else?

"Well, I wouldn't care what other people thought and try to learn anyway."  Sure, you wouldn't care right up until you got the #$%* kicked out of you after school (or in class, for that matter) for being different, or got your house shot up for telling the wrong person to be quiet in class because you were trying to learn.  Remember when you were a teenager, how much peer pressure affected your life?  Not only is it "not cool" to be smart in such a broken system, it's dangerous

Dan has it right there. It is not a welfare mentality. It is a "I dont give a crap" mentality and a "I must not stand out" mentality.  This happens even in places where there is little welfare spending.

But of course I will be wrong cause it is not what you experienced.

[edbikerii]

OK 333, that's a fair question.  I'll try to clarify my position.  Welfare reform and the Bill that Scondon and I referred to have worked beautifully to reduce poverty and get people off welfare.  There are still a lot more poeple who are on welfare, and that is still a problem.  Does that make my position perfectly clear?

I commend your volunteerism, and I think that your program probably has a dramatic impact on those 16 kids at a time.  I'm sure you take great pleasure in helping them, and you should.  I know that I take great pleasure in helping with my volunteer work as well (see my earlier posts).

You're right, Ed.  You didn't make the crack and Cadillacs comment.  Madmark is taking credit, but I'd have said Sebnn made in regards to NYC.  Either way, in replying to my question you still contradict your Giuliani comment.  So again I ask; which is it?  Does Giuliani's program really work, or is really as bad as you say?  Do you remember 20 or so years ago when one of the election buzzwords was "welfare reform"?  When it came about, the abuses were tremendously reduced.  Sure, some still bend the rules.  I've seen beer bought with food stamps.  I'll paraphrase and stand by my earlier comment- If you lived in the projects, you'd drink pretty heavy too.

And Ed, you're the one who has it wrong about "OPPORTUNITY for education."  I haven't said much of my volunteerism, but here goes.  I give one day a week to a program that teaches 17-22 year old "kids"(I'm 50) carpentry skills through boatbuilding.  The Alexandria Seaport Foundation (alexandriaseaport.org) also teaches GED and driving education, all while paying them.  This teaches them work ethic, as there are incentives and demerits for good and bad behaviour.  When they graduate the 4 month program, they are given a job with the carpenters union as an apprentice carpenter.  Our director works with the union on a national level to get a similar program that they have to work.  The point I'm trying to make about opportunity for education is this.  There isn't much.  Our program only has enough room for 16 kids at one time.  Our "classes" are staggered, so 4 kids graduate each month.  We turn away at least 20 kids a month because of lack of money and room.  Most of the kids come from the school systems, some from the courts, and a few are refugees

[edbikerii]

You may be right.  Perhaps there is an opportunity in the education system.  But the educators have failed to make any difference with the techniques they've been using up until now.  I've always said that the money wasted on welfare would be better spent on education.  Just ask Eldar.

The public education system is the ONLY place where we can break the welfare mentality, because it's frankly the only place where these kids will get a perspective of what is possible outside the "crack and cadillacs."  Unfortunately many inner-city schools have some of the worst track records in existence. 

Boy Dan, you love to put words in my mouth, don't you?  I don't expect that people would starve to death if you took away their welfare.  I expect that they would be forced to find a way to earn money, just like everybody else.  The vast majority of people don't have welfare checks coming in, and most of them don't starve.  Most of them learn how to get, and keep jobs.

I never said it was easy to break out of that welfare mentality, I just said that democrat politicians are DELIBERATELY MAKING IT HARDER.  It is not easy to break the welfare dependency cycle, but it is definitely NECESSARY.

I agree.  But the ways in which we want to fix it are completely different.  You want to "fix" it by taking away benefits, and if people starve then oh well, that was their problem they should have worked harder.  I want to fix it by giving less money to American Airlines and Haliburton, and instead reinvesting it in our childrens' future through education.

Moreover, you continually try to turn this into a racial issue.  It is not a racial issue for me.  Other personal observations I've made of poor white families is that they do exactly the same stupid things, except that their tastes tend to be a little different.

Alright, you're joking.  He's got to be joking.  Please tell me he's joking?

You dance around the issue and then say, "That's not what I was talking about."  Yeah, right.  Don't even try to play it off.

So, what's the joke exactly, Dan?  Frankly, based on your comments, I think YOU are the biggest racist here.  Hell, you even called me a Nazi and then later deleted your post.  I'll also point out that you should take a moment to reflect on the fact that you don't know me at all.  You don't even have a clue what I look like, but you sure do THINK you do.

[BobbyR]

I think it may be time to retire this thread. I think everyone including me has said their piece at least twice.

[edbikerii]

Hey, Bobby, what the hell is this?  You stir up all this $h1t, and then you don't like the monster you created?  You must be a democrat!

I think it may be time to retire this thread. I think everyone including me has said their piece at least twice.

[BobbyR]

Hey, Bobby, what the hell is this?  You stir up all this $h1t, and then you don't like the monster you created?  You must be a democrat!

I think it may be time to retire this thread. I think everyone including me has said their piece at least twice.

No actually I am a Republican for over 30 years. I was not thiniking when I started this thread that it would go so far. I think some feelings are getting hurt. That is not a good thing. Maybe i did start a Monster. The Babe thread is a Monster and evrything is so mellow over there.
So what do you think, agree to disagree and go back to synching carbs and adjusting camchains? 

[eldar]

Ed, you have once again changed your story. Before you have always stated that you want no more taxes to go to education. Now you are saying you want more money to education and none to welfare. It is still tax money now isnt it.

As for winning some victory, you have yet to do that with anyone. There are more indians than you think there are. Buy you would not know since they are not in nyc. And since they are not in nyc they must be a small group right?