Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[Uncle Ernie]

This is a decent demonstration of how and why our government isn't working.  it could be educational in and of itself, if folks could get away from being defensive and name-calling.  This is the kind of thing that is bringing our country to it's knees.  Why we nominate a candidate who we hope will win, with no consideration of ideas and leadership.  We vote against that candidate because of his party, not because of what he says or believes.

What's more important- winning an argument or salvaging a young country?  

I actually do believe in free enterprise, but short-sighted, personal greed is really bringing this country down.  It's not just lobbyiests  lobbiests  hell- I can't spell it but you know who I mean- it's the politicians who take their bribes, too.  Mad-dude said a mouthful back their.  Anyone who has Medicare Plan D knows it.  Medicare can't negociate drug prices like the VA can because the lobby guys got to congress.

Instead of pointing pout how someone is wrong, hoiw aboput a proposal to fix the situation as you see it?  Hell, let's print a copy and send it to some politicians.  Don't want people on welfare?  OK- hoe do we fix that?  Just pointing and saying, "Bad" isn't doing anything.  What about corporate welfare?  Is that OK because people have jobs (while thier taxes are helping to pay for their employer)?

Pitchin a #$%* doesn't do anything.  Some of you guys are smart- how does it get fixed?  Come up with alternatives?  

[edbikerii]

Go back and read it if you want.  I won't waste my time arguing with you, Eldar.  I posted a link to it earlier in this thread, along with a lovely quote from you in which you agreed.  You can go find it yourself, my time is too valuable.

Ed, you have once again changed your story. Before you have always stated that you want no more taxes to go to education. Now you are saying you want more money to education and none to welfare. It is still tax money now isnt it.

As for winning some victory, you have yet to do that with anyone. There are more indians than you think there are. Buy you would not know since they are not in nyc. And since they are not in nyc they must be a small group right?

[edbikerii]

So why don't you get us started then, Ernie?   

This is a decent demonstration of how and why our government isn't working.  it could be educational in and of itself, if folks could get away from being defensive and name-calling.  This is the kind of thing that is bringing our country to it's knees.  Why we nominate a candidate who we hope will win, with no consideration of ideas and leadership.  We vote against that candidate because of his party, not because of what he says or believes.

What's more important- winning an argument or salvaging a young country?  

I actually do believe in free enterprise, but short-sighted, personal greed is really bringing this country down.  It's not just lobbyiests  lobbiests  hell- I can't spell it but you know who I mean- it's the politicians who take their bribes, too.  Mad-dude said a mouthful back their.  Anyone who has Medicare Plan D knows it.  Medicare can't negociate drug prices like the VA can because the lobby guys got to congress.

Instead of pointing pout how someone is wrong, hoiw aboput a proposal to fix the situation as you see it?  Hell, let's print a copy and send it to some politicians.  Don't want people on welfare?  OK- hoe do we fix that?  Just pointing and saying, "Bad" isn't doing anything.  What about corporate welfare?  Is that OK because people have jobs (while thier taxes are helping to pay for their employer)?

Pitchin a #$%* doesn't do anything.  Some of you guys are smart- how does it get fixed?  Come up with alternatives?  

[edbikerii]

Oh, wait, Eldar, here it is.  Just click on the link with your name on it and the whole damned thread from back in July will pop up!  Imagine that :

I fail to see ANY repub trying to get people off of welfare other than just cutting programs. So while ed keeps bashing dems out of lack of any REAL knowledge, anyone  can see the repubs doing the same thing.

Again, Eldar, you've forgotten about Giuliani's workfare program that was incredibly successful in NYC.  He put limits on the length of time one could collect welfare, and then he required welfare recipients to work.  In conjunction with NYC's wonderful public education system (of which I am an alumnus), many generations-long dependency cycles were broken, and hundreds of thousands were freed from the oppressive chains of poverty.

We discussed this at length in another thread several months ago, don't you remember?  In case you've forgotten:

[Edit:  I corrected a spelling mistake]

That would certainly be a possibility Ed.  I would not mind getting rid of welfare completely, just take some time to do it. Not like a century but 20 years or so.

I would certainly go with something like what you say.

[eldar]

Ok but you put on ONLY what you typed at the end. Why not show us the stuff you posted BEFORE then. Quite a different tune.

As for Ernie starting it, since you feel you are so smart, why don't you? Something NON-partisan of course if it is to have ANY credibility and no slander on anyone. Oh and something that does not just "cut" people off.

Lets see what you got.

[my78k]

21 pages of proof..."you meet the nicest people on a Honda"...     

Dennis

[333]

Ok but you put on ONLY what you typed at the end. Why not show us the stuff you posted BEFORE then. Quite a different tune.

As for Ernie starting it, since you feel you are so smart, why don't you? Something NON-partisan of course if it is to have ANY credibility and no slander on anyone. Oh and something that does not just "cut" people off.

Lets see what you got.

Oh, like that'll happen.  Non-partisan? LMAO.

[DammitDan]

Hell, you even called me a Nazi and then later deleted your post.

Uhh...  What?

[Uncle Ernie]

Well, Ed, first let me apologise for my spelling in that last post. Very embarassing.  Somehow my fingers are fatter in the morning.

So. I'm not very smart about this kind of stuff (and Congress would have to go along- like that would ever happen).  
AS far as healthcare goes, I would ban advertising of any kind of prescription medication.  If a compnay wants to push a drug, send a doctor a box of cigars with some free samples.  It's up to the doctor to prescribe your pills- not the other way around.  This would save drug companies- and hopefully the end user- a ton of money.
I think Medicare should be able to negotiate prices (including drugs) the way the VA does.
It would be nice if there was a way to eliminate college loan interest for any new doctor who agreed to work in a county hospital for 5 years.  (same for nurses)
As far as welfare goes, there are all kinds of places to work in exchange for medicine, food, rent, etc; animal shelters, nursing homes, daycares, nighborhood, street, and park maintenance, Meals On Wheels, etc.  I wonder if there's a way to combine nursing homes with daycare?  Not all retired and old people are disabled but are too poor to afford decent care.  Why not let them take care of little kids while mom is off working or going to school?
I'd like to see government programs graduated so you're not pushed off into the vast ocean in a little dinghy as soon as you make $1 over an arbitrary limit.  Where's the incentive in that?
I like the way Israel handle the military- every able-bodied person goes.  We wouldn't need the reserves then because we'd have jillions of folks in the army.  Also available for relief and emergeny work like floods, fires, etc.

I'd like to see lobbiests gone.  I'd like to see politicians who take a dime or service of any kind from them prosecuted and jailed.  They are not there to serve individual companies- they are there to serve the people who elected them- and ultimately the people of this whole country.

I'd like to encourage states to recommend Congressional raises based on performance, instead of Congress being allowed to vote themselves pay raises.  Each statre would have a bi-partisan committee to recommend same.

I'd like to see an advertising budget fot the government.  When you look at all the advertising that took place during WWII, no wonder everyone bought war bonds.  Everyone pulled together because of a common cause.  We knew what needed to happen and how to do it.  It took sacrifice, too.  We all need some of that spirit again.  Buy a war bond. Plant a garden.  Drive less.  Whatever.  
This country is in dire need of it's PEOPLE- not it's politicians.  Everyone is getting more polarized and it's hurting everything.  Everything.   People and country.  The country IS the people- and we can't come together on anything anymore.  Asking people to sacrifice a little can do that, I think.  Publicity can do that.  I belive in the power of advertising.  Make people think abut more than if they have dandruff flakes on their shoulder.

What else... flat sales tax.  If an American company moves to an island to avoid anything like taxes, they aren't allowed to sell their product here for 10 years.  If an American company has it's product made in China, or other foriegn country, those products get an extra tax, or whatever you call it.  I don't remember a lot of words sometimes- sorry.  It's what happened to Japanese motorcycles in the '80s when Harley was having a hard time- you know what I mean.

We have building inspectors during construction.  They could also be checking to see if the contractor is hiring illegal aliens.  If so, fine the hell pout of him.  It's not Mexican's fault- it's the people who hire them.  If they can't get work, they won't come.  JUST BE PREPARED TO PAY MORE MONEY FOR A LOT OF THINGS because without cheap labour, things are going to cost a lot more.  I don't really think all the people who complain about illegals understand this.  

Any food related company that sells tainted food will be punished somehow- severely.  The government shouldn't have to inspect meat and vegitables.  If something you put on a store shelf hurts someone- YOU GO TO JAIL- AND I'M TALKING THE CEO- and all doctor's bills and medicines are company paid. INSPECT YOUR OWN DAMN FOOD.

Shoot. Boston Legal is on.  Gotta go.  mad cow

[DammitDan]

You may be right.  Perhaps there is an opportunity in the education system.  But the educators have failed to make any difference with the techniques they've been using up until now.  I've always said that the money wasted on welfare would be better spent on education.  Just ask Eldar.

You seemed to have missed my point...  It's not the educators that have failed, it's the administrators who have failed.  If the administration fails to provide schools with the proper tools and funding, then the educators (by educators I can assume you mean teachers) don't stand much of a chance.  The administration doesn't give the school funding because it's already basically given up on that school, and in turn, that school's students.

You can't realistically expect the system to get better b

Boy Dan, you love to put words in my mouth, don't you?  I don't expect that people would starve to death if you took away their welfare.  I expect that they would be forced to find a way to earn money, just like everybody else.  The vast majority of people don't have welfare checks coming in, and most of them don't starve.  Most of them learn how to get, and keep jobs.

By "force them to find a way to earn money" do you mean, sell drugs?  Sell their bodies?  Sell hamburgers and hope that minimum wage job will support their family?  People WILL starve to death if you stop welfare.  But hey, people are already starving to death in America, what's a few million more gonna hurt?   

You can't realistically expect to solve a problem that affects millions of people by simply cutting the power.  Machiavellian principles have never proven to be successful, unless of course you have no conscience.

So, what's the joke exactly, Dan?  Frankly, based on your comments, I think YOU are the biggest racist here.  Hell, you even called me a Nazi and then later deleted your post.  I'll also point out that you should take a moment to reflect on the fact that you don't know me at all.  You don't even have a clue what I look like, but you sure do THINK you do.

Poking a stick at me isn't going to provoke me.  Calling me a racist is just dumb.  I'm stating facts, you're stating opinions based on personal observation.

Oh, and it really doesn't matter WHAT you look like, I don't care if you have 3 eyes or green skin.  I still wouldn't hate you (unless you're pointing a raygun at me) 

[mark]

Well, Ed, first let me apologise for my spelling in that last post. Very embarassing.  Somehow my fingers are fatter in the morning.

So. I'm not very smart about this kind of stuff (and Congress would have to go along- like that would ever happen). 
AS far as healthcare goes, I would ban advertising of any kind of prescription medication.  If a compnay wants to push a drug, send a doctor a box of cigars with some free samples.  It's up to the doctor to prescribe your pills- not the other way around.  This would save drug companies- and hopefully the end user- a ton of money.
I think Medicare should be able to negotiate prices (including drugs) the way the VA does.
It would be nice if there was a way to eliminate college loan interest for any new doctor who agreed to work in a county hospital for 5 years.  (same for nurses)
As far as welfare goes, there are all kinds of places to work in exchange for medicine, food, rent, etc; animal shelters, nursing homes, daycares, nighborhood, street, and park maintenance, Meals On Wheels, etc.  I wonder if there's a way to combine nursing hoimes with daycare?  Not all retired and old people are disabled but are too poor to afford decent care.  Why not let them take care of little kids while mom is off cleaning something or going to school?
I'd like to see government programs graduated so you're not pushed off into the vast ocean in a little dinghy as soon as you make $1 over an arbirary limit.  Where's the incentive in that?
I like the way Israel handle the military- every able-bodied person goes.  We wouldn't need the reserves then because we'd have jillions of folks in the army.  Also available for relief and emergeny work like floods, fires, etc.

I'd like to see lobbiests gone.  I'd like to see politicians who take a dime or service of any kind from them prosecuted and jailed.  They are not there to serve individual companies- they are there to serve the people who elected them- and ultimately the people of this whole country.

I'd like to encourage states to recommend Congressional raises based on performance, instead of Congress being allowed to vote themselves pay raises.  Each statre would have a bi-partisan committee to recommend same.

I'd like to see an advertising budget fot the government.  When you look at all the advertising that took place during WWII, no wonder everyone bought war bonds.  Everyone pulled together because of a common cause.  We knew what needed to happen and how to do it.  It took sacrifice, too.  We all need some of that spirit again.  Buy a war bond. Plant a garden.  Drive less.  Whatever. 
This country is in dire need of it's people- not it's politicians.  Everyone is getting more polarized and it's hurting everything.  Everything.   People and country.  The country IS the people- and we can't come together on anything anymore.  Asking people to sacrifice a little can do that, I think.  Publicity can do that.  I belive in the power of advertising.  Make people think abut more than if they have flakes on their shoulder.

What else... flat sales tax.  If an American company moves to an island to avoid anything like taxes, they aren't allowed to sell their product here for 10 years.  If an american company has it's product made in China, or other foriegn country, those products get an extra tax, or whatever you call it.  I don't remember a lot of words sometimes- sorry.  It's what happened to Japanese motorcycles in the '80s when Harley was having a hard time- you know what I mean.

We have building inspectors during construction.  They could also be checking to see if the contractor is hiring illegal aliens.  If so, fine the hell pout of him.  It's not Mexican's fault- it's the people who hire them.  If they can't get work, they won't come.  JUST BE PREPARED TO PAY MORE MONEY FOR A LOT OF THINGS because without cheap labour, things are going to cost a lot more.  I don't really think all the people who complain about illegals understand this. 

Any food related company that sells tainted food will be punished somehow- severely.  The government shouldn't have to inspect meat and vegitables.  If something you put on a store shelf hurts someone- YOU GO TO JAIL- AND I'M TALKING THE CEO- and all doctor's bills and medicines are company paid. INSPECT YOUR OWN DAMN FOOD.

Shoot. Boston Legal is on.  Gotta go.  mad cow

The folks at the county clerk's office are going to be scratching their heads when I write in "Uncle Ernie" for President next November.

 

[333]

DammitDan said "raygun"!!!

[Bob Wessner]

Some good ideas there UE. This one caught my eye.

I like the way Israel handle the military- every able-bodied person goes.  We wouldn't need the reserves then because we'd have jillions of folks in the army.  Also available for relief and emergeny work like floods, fires, etc.

Despite having two grandsons, I favor at least a draft. The family looks at me as though I'm sentencing them to death, but in addition to the above, we as a society might think more about future situations around the world before committing our youth to battle, and vote accordingly.

[eldar]

There are other countries that require all able bodies to server for a couple years.

[Uncle Ernie]

Bob, that is a VERY good point.  If everyone's kids and grandkids were in the military, I'll bet our so-called "intelligence" would improve a whole lot, too!

[upperlake04]

        * Green: No armed forces
        * Blue: No draft (voluntary army/occupational army)
        * Orange: Still draft, but an abolition in close future (<to 3 years) is already decided
        * Red: Draft
        * Grey: No information

[DammitDan]

Wait, I thought Spain had a required service system in place for all young people?  (Kinda like Israel does?)

[my78k]

UE, some good points there on new ideas...I do take exception to one though and that is your views on daycare. Not a huge fan of that proposal based on the fact that I wouldn't want my kids in a situation where they were not with a trained provider. This is one of the reasons my wife does in home day care. She can be there for our kids and earn some money on the side. In my eyes alot of the problems that North America (not just you folks south of the border) is the lack of family unity. It is far easier to have someone else raise your kids than do it yourself. We see it all the time in parents who continually blame the schools or TV or daycare or whatever for THEIR child's behaviour!

Dennis

[333]

Bob, that is a VERY good point.  If everyone's kids and grandkids were in the military, I'll bet our so-called "intelligence" would improve a whole lot, too!

I don't know about an improvement, but certainly more truthful!

[Uncle Ernie]

Well, I wasn't exactly proposng dropping the kids off at a place with a pat on the bottom, "Bye kids! Hope someone finds you here..."
Having volunteered at a daycare, I found that- like all places that deal with kids- they can use all the help they can get.  Little kids like the attention, and so do the old folks.  A couple of trained staff members should be on hand, though.

If I was king of the world, I would provide sex AND financial education in schools.  Too many people on the planet.  Foster care is criminal.  Kids shouldn't have to be knocked around- whether from poverty OR too-busy suburbia.
Plus, kids get a hold of credit cards and have no clue.  Banks offer crazy mortgage plans, and you see how THAT's going.  Who can balance a checkbook these days; "How can I be out of monay- I still have checks?!"

Anyway- we'll put you on one of the committees so the ideas can get ironed out just right.

[my78k]

lol...I assure you it is very rare that any of my ideas get ironed out just right! My criticism was in no way a dig at you I assure you....more so a commentary on our social system and how the family is no longer really a family! To me this family cohesion goes far beyod that of one's actual family but it sure does start there (or atleast it should!). If I don't have that same connection to my family and those that raised me how can I hope to have it for those that merely exist around me?!?!?

Dennis

[Uncle Ernie]

Well... perhaps the opposite might be true?
The only cohesion our family had was the same street address.  I think that as I get older, that helps me appreciate other people and resources more.
But- well, you know.  I'm may not be a good example.

[333]

I think the definition of a family is not what it appears to be now, but what it is in the end.  When kids are young, there is the textbook definition of family, but whether it is a true family in the sense of right or wrong, good or bad, can't be answered until it's too late to change anything.  I think you guys turned out alright, regardless of "family".  Does anybody know a "functional family"?

A bumper sticker I like to quote; "Normal People are People you just don't know very well".

[BobbyR]

UE, some good points there on new ideas...I do take exception to one though and that is your views on daycare. Not a huge fan of that proposal based on the fact that I wouldn't want my kids in a situation where they were not with a trained provider. This is one of the reasons my wife does in home day care. She can be there for our kids and earn some money on the side. In my eyes alot of the problems that North America (not just you folks south of the border) is the lack of family unity. It is far easier to have someone else raise your kids than do it yourself. We see it all the time in parents who continually blame the schools or TV or daycare or whatever for THEIR child's behaviour!

Dennis

Well you are correct the family unit has changed. When I was growing up you were the exception if you did not have a stay at home Mom. That has all but disappeared in much of the US. The two income family is the norm, and the single parent household is a unfortunately very common. We had to put our kid in daycare and we were very selective and we paid quite a bit, but we really had too. We needed those incomes to live in a Community with good Schools and safe streets.
The US is quite different than Canada in a lot of ways. And, if you live in one of the Metro areas of one of our large cities it is quite different than rural areas.
I am not sure all of this is good or bad, it is still fairly early to draw any conclusions as to how it will affect the future of these kids. What you do is spend as much time as you can being with your kid on activities. My wife had a stay at home Mom but her Father worked two full time jobs so the kids barely knew him. Two of those kids are truly useless and they harbored a real anger over that.
I was the VP of my local Board of Education so I know how unbalanced some Parents can be. I am not sure stay at home Moms were any less nuts than working Moms, the stay at home Moms had more time to think up weird crap. 

It is very expensive to live here. This is a rough estimate of my yearly outlay:

30% Federal Income Tax
$9,500 Property Tax
$3,600 Medical Insurance Premiums
$40,000 College Tuition   

Now I am depressed looking at those numbers.     

[my78k]

Oh I agree Bobby that each family is different and I never meant to imply that if you both work you love your kids less or are bad parents. I hope that was not how it was taken. I merely meant that in alot of cases the person doing the day care spends more time with the kids than the parents do (in my case by the time I get home from my day with a 1.5 hour commute each way) I see my 5 and 8 yr old for about an hour or 2 at the most before they are off to bed. In my case (and in cases where GOOD daycare providers are in the equation) the kids are treated right and given the love and attention they deserve. I see other sides of it too...my buddy and his wife both work long hours and consequently don't get enough time with the kids and then they send them off on the weekends to the grandparent's! I know in a few year's time he will be btiching about something they learned and I will try my best to point out that he could have taught them different had he taken the time to do so!

In terms of costs...we aren't that far off up here though...you may pay alot in health care premiums but my income tax is more like 50% of my income plus we have a combined 14% sales tax (provincial and federal) and my property taxes are around 1.5% of my homes value so around $4000 per year.

I agree that Canada is a very different place but our urban centres aren't all that disimilar. Crimes rates are increasing...property values are jumping big time etc etc etc...

All in all, I can't really complain though...lord knows it could be a HELL of alot worse!

Dennis