Author Topic: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs  (Read 7588 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« on: November 26, 2007, 07:15:32 PM »
I need a larger slow jet for my 1978 CB550K, because I'm running pods. The Honda parts list doesn't even show the press in slow jets on the microfiche (not on partsfish, not servicehonda, and not at my local dealer either).  I don't even know what the stock size is (don't want to pull my carbs yet again to find out)

Thanks!

Charles.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 10:47:11 AM »
Yeah, I think those are stock I think. I want bigger than stock.

Charles.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 10:59:53 AM »
hmm...gotcha...maybe out of luck there.  Most run pods with the stock jets.  May be a little lean at idle/lower rpms, but usually not enough to matter.  If you MUST have larger slows, I think your only option is to buy a mini drill bit set and ream them out...
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 02:59:02 PM »
Ah well, an excuse to buy tools is always a good thing I suppose.

I'll swap my mains out first, then see how it runs. Then I'll try adjusting the pilot screws. Then the needles. Finally, I'll try drilling the slow jets. (note, one at a time... I've found a long time ago that you only make one change to the carbs at a time, then test, then another change, then test...  never multiple changes all at once...)

That being said, every bike I've put pods on previously has required an increase in the slow jet size in order to run correctly. Especially 80's models, that are jetted extremely lean at idle to begin with. This includes a DOHC CB750 Custom, a CX650, and an EX500 Ninja.... they all required larger slow jets.  But then, those all had CV carbs... this dimunitive 1978 CB550K is my first multi-cylinder bike with direct slide carbs. (I have an old Yamaha TW200 thumper, but that doesn't count because I haven't modded the intake yet).

Charles.

Offline Spikeybike

  • when planting C4 at your enemy's base make sure you don't use a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,265
  • member #1150
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 03:30:17 PM »
my 75 550F had 38 slow jets stock .
when i got pods i thought that i should bump up the slows a little to 40
while trying to sync and tune the carbs, i would smell gas
didn't think much of it at first, finished sync-ing the carbs went and did a few plug chops,,
had to take the carbs back off to switch the mains out, and the intake manofold was full of raw gas.

moral of the story is that little change from 38 to 40 made the mixture WAAAY to rich at idle. as a side note they did  run really good from idle to 1/4 throttle.

if you still feel you need bigger slows i still have them i think.... somewhere
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 03:31:49 PM by spikeybike »

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 04:24:59 PM »
The 78 carbs are completely different from the 75 carbs. The 75 carbs have a screw-in pilot jet and they're actually jetted relatively rich on the low end (I'll bet you can start your bike on a hot day without any choke). The 78 has press-in slow jets (interference fit), and #90 main jets, different taper needles, and completely different carb bodies. The 78 carbs are much, much leaner at idle. There is no way I can start my bike on a warm day without at least half choke. On a cold day it takes full choke and even then I have to hold the throttle open slightly for 15 or 20 seconds until it idles well. (But then, I do have pods so I'm a little leaner already)

Charles.

Offline Spikeybike

  • when planting C4 at your enemy's base make sure you don't use a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,265
  • member #1150
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 05:49:34 PM »
mmm.gotcha ....well to get the bigger jets i had to by 4 kits and use what i could and ebay the rest.

matter of fact i got them from the seller in the above link. check his site he had all kinds of jets

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2007, 08:57:12 AM »
You don't need bigger pilot jets when you switch to pods.  At idle your engine flows very little air, much less than the stock airbox is capable of supplying, so you are not going to flow any more air with pods.

I did richen up my mixture one turn at idle, but only because I prefer to keep it running cooler, to warm up faster, and for best off-throttle performance.  I recommend going one turn richer whether you run with the pods or the stock airbox.

I have a 77 CB550K, which has similar, if not identical carbs as your 78, and EMGO pods.  I've gone through the re-jetting and documented my results in this post http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=22036.msg258435#msg258435.  In fact, the entire thread has a lot of information about jetting for pods and exhaust.

Good luck.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 04:44:20 PM »
Swapping your pilots out prior to real world testing is definitely premature.   Are you sure that your stock pilots are actually clean?  Pull them, soak and clear with a single strand of copper wire if you haven't already.  Set your mix screws to the stock baseline settings and test the bikes performance.  If when you turn the idle mix screws (control fuel on your bike) out 1/4 turn more, performance improves then keep turning out in 1/4 turn increments till performance doesn't improve or you have reached about three turns out.  This would be the end of the effective range of the mix screws and you would then need to up size the pilots.  Simply assuming that you need to upsize your pilots because you installed pods is not a good idea.  My guess is that you will be fine with stock pilots.  Oh and make sure your accelerator pump is working (if your 550 has one) prior to any testing!  Good luck.

Offline blackhog02

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2007, 06:17:01 PM »
I second what edbikerii said.  I also have a 77 cb550k, am running pods with oil, (I have the cheap cone pods on my other bike and don't like them near as much)  and 4 into 2 drag pipes.  I changed the main jets and the needle position (a real pain on the 77/78 carbs) and just pulled and cleaned the idle jets but keep them stock.   It was "hunting" at mid throttle until I changed the needle position. 

http://www.mptrackclub.com/Photos/cb750f/cb550_right_side.JPG

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 08:13:36 PM »
That's a beautiful CB550 chopper you've got there blackhog!
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 09:33:59 PM »
Well, it runs pretty ass-tacular right now. The carbs are synched and there are no vacuum leaks, but it's really lean at idle, and on a cold day full choke isn't quite enough for it to idle right away. I have to hold the throttle open partway for 20 seconds or so. I'll try replacing the pilots with stock size and see if that makes a difference.

It also doesn't have the acceleration it should have... it feels really lean across the board. I'll start playing with the mains this weekend.

Charles.

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 09:54:11 PM »
Try adjusting the choke cam screw so that the idle is bumped up more when the choke is closed.

Always do the mains first for WOT performance.  Then do the needles for mid-range (if needed), then the idle mixture (if needed).   Did you get a chance to read the jetting specs I posted for my 77 CB550?
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 05:21:07 AM »
Yeah, you said 105 mains with stock needle position (which is good since the 78 carbs don't have an adjustable needle). 2.5 turns out on the pilot screws, stock slow jets.

Is filter oil really necessary?

I think my exhaust is a MAC 4-into-1 as well, but I'm not sure. It's actually remarkably quiet! But I'll be running stock points and stock coils though. (I just replaced the points and condensers)

Charles.



Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2007, 09:39:03 AM »
Is filter oil really necessary?

It is if you are using a foam element and want to keep dust from eroding cylinder walls.

You don't need bigger pilot jets when you switch to pods.  At idle your engine flows very little air, much less than the stock airbox is capable of supplying, so you are not going to flow any more air with pods.

This is an absolutely correct conclusion.  But, the entry statement is not supported by it.

Pods do NOTHING to increase air flow over any other filter at idle speeds.  The amount of air flow is determined by the engine displacement, RPM, and the efficiency of the valve train components in the SOHC4.
A filter media change effects the depth of the pressure drop across the filter media (comparing one filter type to another).  And, it is the depth of that pressure drop in the carb throat that determines how much fuel can be drawn through a given fuel metering orifice diameter.

If you are using pods that specify oiling, the manufacturer has determined that oil is an integral part of the filter design.  Further, oil in a foam filter has an impact on it's cleaning and restrictive (pressure drop) properties, as in effect, it further narrows the openings through which inlet air passes. Oil viscosity matters.

For the 78 PD carbs, the idle mixture screw meters the total air/fuel mixture provided to the carb throats from the slow speed system.  At some adjustment point, the IMS is open as far as it will go, then the slow jet and slow air jet orifices determines the air fuel mix.  The IMS will become less effectual as it approaches maximum adjustment range. If you need a richer idle/slow speed mixture than what an open IMS can provide, then you WILL need to obtain a larger slow jet orifice diameter.

You can observe these fundamental principles using your very own mouth.  When you suck on a straw you create a partial vacuum in you mouth. You can feel the depth of vacuum vary in your mouth and how the straw diameter effects the difficulty in obtaining a given vacuum.  Further, you can draw more water into your mouth using a larger diameter straw, than a small diameter straw in a given time period using the same level of partial vacuum.

The stock carb orifices were specified by Honda engineers while using the pressure drop qualities of the stock air box/filter media qualities, and the needs of the engine, given the cylinder scavenge characteristics of the stock exhaust system and it's exit orifice diameter.  Poor exhaust scavenging means less oxygen available in the cylinder, and less fuel is then required for a proper burn.

So, for the 77- 78 engine, the exhausts had lower scavenge than previous models.  This tended to make carb jets smaller (so less hydrocarbons made it into the air, an EPA design goal). It follows that the carb jets would have to be adjusted to provide more fuel to the engine to keep pace with more oxygen associated with a more open exhaust.
This is a separate factor from carb throat pressure, which is directly impacted by the air filter arrangement.  And, carb throat pressure determines the amount of fuel drawn through the carbs metering orifices.

Simple, eh?

 ;D


« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 11:59:33 AM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 10:42:35 AM »
TT, you must have driven your wife crazy before the SOHC boards were started!   :D
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline Spikeybike

  • when planting C4 at your enemy's base make sure you don't use a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,265
  • member #1150
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 11:05:54 AM »
i'm gonna quote myself from another thread:
 .. and to anyone new when TT is speaking about carbs LISTEN because he could rebiuld one in his sleep, while hanging upside down, after a night of tequila shots.

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 09:50:20 PM »
Well, I opened up the carbs tonight.... I think I figured out why it seemed to idle weird, and why it ran pretty okay right after I put it back together the first time, but when I rode it to work the other day it ran like crap... the #2 emulsion tube had backed out of the holder and was loose. It couldn't fall out all the way because of the float bowl, but it was loose enough that vacuum could escape past the threads, meaning no fuel would get sucked up the main jet and into the engine. It was probably also causing float bowl vacuum issues at idle.

Also, I adjusted the fast idle stopper that rides on the choke cam, and replaced the main jets with the smallest I had - 117.5's. I'll give it a test run and see. It HAD 110 mains in there and was still lean... but I'll admit they were pretty corroded, and the corrosion layer could have easily made the inner diameter smaller than stock. I'll order 105's, 107.5's, and 110's from cycle recycle part II if these are too big. (Fortunately pods make carb removal a cinch!)

At any rate, I finished well after midnight, and I only started it up for a second or two before shutting it back down -- didn't want to wake the neighbors. It started much easier and idled okay on choke... I'll know more tomorrow when I ride it to work!

Charles.

ChopperCharles

  • Guest
Re: Help finding replacement slow jets for 78 CB550 carbs
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 03:26:37 PM »
The bike runs GREAT and idles perfectly! Once that loose main jet holder was back in place the bike idled much higher, and was still slow to return to idle... I adjusted the idle down to normal, and the slow return thing vanished entirely. It now idles smoothly and perfectly, and with the 117 jets it runs wonderfully, and doesn't have any flat spots. No gurgling on overrev (that usually indicates richness), and no popping on decelleration either. it just felt right.

I'm running 117.5 main jets and stock 46 slow jets on 1978 carbs with EMGO 39mm mini pods (no filter oil... do I need it?). Pod on the #2 carb tweaked slightly to clear the choke linkage. I also have what I think is a MAC 4-into-1 with a very quiet baffle and a nice hole rusted through the bottom of the muffler.

So I'm happy, now that she runs well I can start modding!

Charles.