Topic: What is the world coming to?

[Raul CB750K1]

You mean Cagiva Raptor Terry, not Aprilia. I was once in a dealer that worked with Ducati and Cagiva. They happened to have a Raptor and a Monster side by side, and the dealer told me to compare the cycle parts. Apart from the fact that both frames look very similar -designed both by argentinian Miguel Angel Galluzzi-, the cycle parts were the same: Brembo brakes, inverted forks, etc. The main difference was the ducati engine in one, and the Suzuki engine in the Cagiva.







Well, I guess that if you are sold by Ducati engineering there is no further discussion, but the 3.000 euro or so price difference was big enough as to consider an alternative for the Ducati.

In Spain, both Ducati and Harley are the toys for the rich, urban guys. While some of them like to play the "bad guy" role, the more "fashion-oriented" ones lean toward Ducati and his italian charm -kinda rockers vs mods in the sixties-. You won't convince one of those guys to buy a Cagiva. They will buy the Ducati badge, and get a free bike with it.

[DarkRider]

And to answer your question..yes terry Hyosung provides the engines for both the SV1000 and the Cagiva Raptor. Well its more like Suzuki and Cagiva bought the Hyosung engine and made a couple changes to make it suit their bikes.

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, isn't it incredible that the Italians and the Japanese think that the Korean product is good enough to wear their badges, but some of the "experts" here think otherwise?

Geez, if only those manufacturers could afford to hire them, for "Technical advice", or perhaps, "Quality control", just imagine how much better those new models would be? Ha ha, Cheers, Terry.

[Raul CB750K1]

I do think that korean vehicles are much better now than they used to be. Talking about cars, Daewoo, Kia or Hyunday are making good, cheap cars.

Talking about bikes, it would be too optimistic to say that italians and japanese think that the korean engines are good enough to wear their badges. It could simply be that it was the only cost-effective solution. One thing is clear: you can't get good tools at the Dollar Tree (you know, those shops selling chinese stuff at one dollar each). But if you want to buy one million pliers, you will get direct access to the plant manager and will have a say about the final quality. If you set the quality control, you can get good products even from chinese manufacturers, but obviously, at occidental prices, not oriental prices.

[Terry in Australia]

it would be too optimistic to say that italians and japanese think that the korean engines are good enough to wear their badges.

Well if Hyosung is supplying engines to Suzuki and Aprilia, or Cagiva, they've already been "Badge accepted", I'd say? And the Chinese have been building small Yamaha 2 strokes (PW50 etc) under license, for years. Cheers, Terry.

[Bob Wessner]

I do think that korean vehicles are much better now than they used to be. Talking about cars, Daewoo, Kia or Hyunday are making good, cheap cars.

My daughter recently purchased a KIA Sedona (van). Pretty nice vehicle actually. It seems they made big improvements over their first generation vehicles. Has a 10 yr., 100,000 mi. warrantly.

[Terry in Australia]

You can't go wrong there Bob, I bought the wife a (then) 8 year old Hyundai Excel with 60,000 miles on the odometer, and it hasn't missed a beat in the 3 years that we've had it.

One disc pad actually came off it's backing plate (weird) but apart from that, it's been perfect, and money well spent.

I'll buy her another one when this one wears out, but I don't think that's gonna happen soon! Cheers, Terry. 

[edbikerii]

Well if Hyosung is supplying engines to Suzuki and Aprilia, or Cagiva, they've already been "Badge accepted", I'd say?

What is the source of that information?  I'm sorry, but a Hyosong dealer is simply not a reliable source for such a claim.  As I said, I've seen both the SV650 and the Hyosong within minutes of each other at the Intl motorcycle show, and I find it hard to believe that there are any shared parts whatsoever.  There is a huge difference in fit-and-finish between the two.  Yes, the bikes look similar (but significantly different, IMO), but that seems to be where it ends.

[DarkRider]

Ok...im going to give a bit more info here...It was not from the sales staff who told me this it was the mechanic that told me this information. Given the guy has been working on both variants for years its a pretty safe bet he knows what hes talking about...everyone else is willing to belive the info edbikerii why the hell do you have to make a debate about everything when there isnt reason to do so?

[754]

The thought has crossed my mind that if there is in fact a collaboration of that sort... there would be reams of evidence of it on the internet somewhere.. a bit of support of the facts.

 I dont think that sort of partnership would be kept from the public domain...

[74cb750]

My experience in manufacturing forces me to make a comment here: even the same engine can be different for different companies.

When someone wanted a "cheaper" copy of a  part we would make it, BUT and a big BUT was quality control, to wit, the testing of the finished products were 1/1000 parts vs 1 of every 20 parts. Result was lower quality due to the fact that parts were shipping ASAP in groups of 100 with NO returns accepted and always paid in advance.

So yes engines CAN have different qualities even though they look identical.
sorry,
michel

[754]

Very true and fod for thought!

[Terry in Australia]

Well of course, quality control is the key, poor QC nearly killed off HD in the 1970's, and gave the Japanese manufacturers a foothold in just about every other domestic market too.

But that doesn't mean that the Koreans can't make a quality product, up until a few months ago I had a company Ssangyong Musso pickup truck, it was a fabulous thing, the Ssangyong company built (under license) Mercedes Benz' first 4WD SUV's in Korea, and the powertrain is still built by them under license to Mercedes Benz. Great vehicle and excellent build quality, I racked up 100,000 miles in 18 months, with nothing going wrong. Uglier than an F1, but with a heart of gold! Cheers, Terry.      

http://www.ssangyongaustralia.com.au/musso.html

[edbikerii]

I agree, the Koreans are capable of making excellent quality stuff, but the Hyosong is just not of the same quality as an SV650.  I'll say it again:  I've seen them practically side-by-side, and the Hyosong is just not up to par with the SV650.

It would not surprise me if Hyosong manufactured the engines for Suzuki under contract, but the terms of the contract determines the quality, sometimes even more so than the manufacturer.  Plus, the engines do not even LOOK the same.  As Michel says, even if they did look the same, the quality could be EXTREMELY DIFFERENT, even if delivered from the same plant, due to different manufacturing tolerances in the contract, etc.

By the way, I don't consider a dealership mechanic a reliable source, either.  I believe that spreading mis-information can be very damaging.  Someone might be fooled into thinking that the Hyosong is the same bike as the SV650 for $1000 less, only to find out that they got a cheap knockoff that has less power, is heavier, handles worse, may prove to be less reliable, and will most definitely have a much lower resale value than the Suzuki.  Honestly, even the plastic is cheaper.

So, Outlaw, what makes you so concerned about the Hyosong being the same as the SV650?  You seem to be very aggravated over me trying to get the facts straight.

[Terry in Australia]

Could be Ed, I'm certainly no expert on Hyosungs, but they're considered pretty good stuff here in Oz, and a local Yamaha dealer sells 'em too, and has tricked a few up with quality "Over racing" go-fast parts. If you take a look at YouTube you'll see that there is a bit of a cult following for the 650, and, (surprise surprise) word is that there is a 1000CC V twin on the way!

I also note that Yoshimura are making parts for them too, so I can see some acceptance among the mainstream, and remembering Honda's humble beginnings as I do, I can see Hyosung doing well in the coming years.

I don't think that Outy is intentionally spreading mis-information Ed, he heard what he heard, and considering that there is more than just a passing resemblance between the two engines, I'd be happy to take his word for it, I value his opinion, as much as I do anyone else's here. Cheers, Terry.  

[Raul CB750K1]

Have a look at this nifty little bike



It is a Daelim Roadwin 125. It has proved very popular in Spain. Cheap price, and good design. British marques never thought the japanese would be strong competitors. Let's see if the japanese don't commit the same mistake.

[DarkRider]

Thank you for your comments Terry. Ed i guess i did overreact a bit..but given this guy knows his stuff well enough i trust him with my own bikes i tend to believe what he says. I know hes gonna be doing up a couple of the bikes here pretty soon and chances are probably gonna be using SV parts to do it such as big bore kits. Once again im going to bring up the fact that if his dealership has the trust to be able to sell bikes like the Aprillia Touno and the Moto Guzzi griso right beside the Hyosung GT650 and GV 650 its a pretty good guess he isnt talkin out his ass on this. Ok..from my understanding all three bikes (the Hyosung, Suzuki and Cagiva) all have the same basic engine except slight differences such as bore and stroke along with different side covers to suit the intended application such as the internal oil filter on the Hyosung and the external filter on the SV. As well as a different water pump set up on the cagiva over the hyosung. Basicly what im getting down to is this..Hyosung builds their version of the engines for their bikes and builds variants of the same engine according to the specs set forth in the contracts they have with Suzuki and Cagiva.

Alright heres another good exaple of Hyosung building for Suzuki..look at both the Suzuki Quadracer LT 450R and the Hyosung TE450.  They are basicly the exact same quad except for some slight differences in the plastics. and cosmetics on the engines.

[edbikerii]

For the record, I only looked at the Hyosung because I thought it was a nice bike.  I have bought neither the Hyosung nor the SV650.  For many, maybe even myself, the quality vs. price tradeoff will make it a smart purchase.  It is just important to understand the choices accurately when you make the decision.  I'm happy to hear that there is aftermarket support building for it.  I really like the idea of cheap, reliable, fun, transportation motorcycles instead of the rolling fashion statements that we see so much of these days.

[74cb750]

My brother has a Hyosung and loves it....all of 900 trouble-free miles in 2 years.