Topic: Various

[Angiey2002]

Hi Folks. I have just acquired a nice cb550 1977. Can anyone tell me where the rocker cover breather goes? It has a spring clip on the other end so It must connect to something.
 I assume the small black pipe between 1 & 2 carbs is just a breather. Is this correct?
I notice there is an outlet for a pipe at the back of the rh cover. Is this a breather connection for the air filter?
Thanks.

[TwoTired]

At the bottom of the stock air box is and engine breather filter.  The bottom is the moisture drain (with a pinch tube) and the side nipple (behind the battery) is the hose connection for the rocker cover.

See page 108 of the Honda Shop Manual.

The air plenum nipple has a reduced diameter hose (to restrict air entry) that exits between the swing arm and engine case.

Cheers,

[Angiey2002]

Thanks for that . Much appreciated

[Deltarider]

Here in Europe it was generally advised to disconnect that crankcase breathertube from the airfilterbox, as it caused nothing but trouble. I've seen paper airfilterelements being fouled. Mechanics argue that routing crankcase gasses to the airfilterbox will lead to deposit buildups on the backside of the inlet valves causing mixture problems. All this in spite of that so called blow-by gas filter element.

[TwoTired]

Here in Europe it was generally advised to disconnect that crankcase breathertube from the airfilterbox, as it caused nothing but trouble. I've seen paper airfilterelements being fouled. Mechanics argue that routing crankcase gasses to the airfilterbox will lead to deposit buildups on the backside of the inlet valves causing mixture problems. All this in spite of that so called blow-by gas filter element.

42,000 miles on a 74 CB550 using the stock recirculation scheme.  Engine still screams just fine.  In fact, all my routinely operable bikes still employ a functioning crankcase recirculation feature and has caused no trouble at all.

Paper elements are to be replaced each year.  Never saw any fouling of the paper elements when I still used them.  (Though I switched to foam type for economical reasons many years ago.)

Even if the of inlet valves do get their backs grungy (heresay), I'd rather it happened there than in people's lungs.  (And, I fail see a reason for that to effect mixtures.)

A lot of anti-pollution changes to the automotive/motorcycle world were rejected by people AND "mechanics" due to lack of understanding and false blame being placed on them.

I've been to Los Angeles, CA. when the the air was brown, and I don't want to contribute to that condition where I live, if I can't do something simple to avoid it.

[Deltarider]

Paper elements are to be replaced each year.

Not necessarily.
 

Never saw any fouling of the paper elements

 
I did, so... ?

Even if the inlet valves do get their backs grungy (heresay), I'd rather it happened there than in people's lungs.  (And, I fail see a reason for that to effect mixtures.)

Carbon deposits on the backside of inlet valves act like a sponge when the airfuel mixture passes. Tiny little droplets of fuel are caught leaning the mixture. This can cause irregularities. Over the last years modern gasolines have been developped to adress this problem. Gasolines like Shell V-Power and BP Ultimate have proven to effectively clean the intake. I agree blow-by gasses should not be around, but so shouldn't that hundred-year-old invention: the combustion engine. Let's face it: we're transporting ourselves on furnaces that happen to have wheels. The percentage of the energypotential in oil that is actually put in movement is a joke. I love my bike though. No doubt: blow-by gasses are bad and personally I wouldn't even touch that filter element without wearing gloves. But I like to see things in perspective. Still the most polluted air is found inhome. Garaged vehicles under the same roof being a major factor, by the way.

A lot of anti-pollution changes to the automotive/motorcycle world were rejected by people AND "mechanics" due to lack of understanding and false blame being placed on them.

A lot of the side effects of anti-pollution changes to the automotive/motorcycle world were discovered by mechanics on the floor. I remember that in the 80's maintenance-mechanics of big transportcompanies were the first to alarm manufacturers that something was really wrong when they discovered truck-engines being ruined by black sludge, caused by... recirculated blow-by gasses. New dopes in oil adressed this.

I've been to Los Angeles, CA. when the the air was brown, and I don't want to contribute to that condition where I live, if I can't do something simple to avoid it.

I've been to Los Angeles too and I can think of some recommendations to improve the air even more, but I doubt whether Californians want to hear them. They could stop regarding visitors on foot or pedalbike as potential criminals. On quite a few occasions when I went walking or riding my pedalbike, I had a patrolcar beside me in no time with obesed policemen asking me what I was up to. But I must confess that's years ago.

[dusterdude]

I've been to Los Angeles too and I can think of some recommendations to improve the air even more, but I doubt whether Californians want to hear them. They could stop regarding visitors on foot or pedalbike as potential criminals. On quite a few occasions when I went walking or riding my pedalbike, I had a patrolcar beside me in no time with obesed policemen asking me what I was up to. But I must confess that's years ago.

is your name rodney king?

[TwoTired]

Paper elements are to be replaced each year.

Not necessarily.

RTFM.  Ever read the Honda owner's manual?

Never saw any fouling of the paper elements

 
I did, so... ?

As I recall, you also have the air restrictor that appears on .001 percent of the SOHC4 population and creates far more chamber vacuum than is seen on normal bikes.  That your's fouls with oil vapor faster than norm is understandable.  Further, yes, I do agree that if you leave the filter in long enough it is going to foul.  I've seen air filter fouling, too, on bikes I've acquired, that still had the original paper air filter placed in it 20 years prior.  Never for the paper filters used in my own properly maintained 550 for the 5-10-ish years that I still used those filters.

Even if the inlet valves do get their backs grungy (heresay), I'd rather it happened there than in people's lungs.  (And, I fail see a reason for that to effect mixtures.)

Carbon deposits on the backside of inlet valves act like a sponge when the airfuel mixture passes. Tiny little droplets of fuel are caught leaning the mixture. This can cause irregularities.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Even sponges saturate and don't have unlimited storage space.  How many liters of gas can you store on the back of 4 tiny intake valves?

Over the last years modern gasolines have been developped to adress this problem. Gasolines like Shell V-Power and BP Ultimate have proven to effectively clean the intake.

Sure, they added detergents to clean the entire fuel system and reduce carbon deposits.  Are you seriously trying to argue that they did it expressly as a response to crankcase ventilators?  I find it far more likely that EGR for automotive systems provided the demand for such additives, and the back of intake valves crud up far more significantly from exhaust gas recirculation than from crankcase vapors.

I agree blow-by gasses should not be around, but so shouldn't that hundred-year-old invention: the combustion engine. Let's face it: we're transporting ourselves on furnaces that happen to have wheels. The percentage of the energypotential in oil that is actually put in movement is a joke. I love my bike though. No doubt: blow-by gasses are bad and personally I wouldn't even touch that filter element without wearing gloves. But I like to see things in perspective. Still the most polluted air is found inhome. Garaged vehicles under the same roof being a major factor, by the way.

I've no problem with you choosing to breathe more hydrocarbons for yourself, if you can manage to confine those vapors to your own breathing space.
However, dumping extra crankcase hydrocarbons into the air that your neighbor breathes, because it is somehow contrived as convenient and economical to you, is irresponsible IMO, and arguing for it, I find, rather disconcerting.  Sure older vehicles pollute more than newer ones.  But, I won't try to justify making them pollute even more than they should because they are already bad.

A lot of anti-pollution changes to the automotive/motorcycle world were rejected by people AND "mechanics" due to lack of understanding and false blame being placed on them.

A lot of the side effects of anti-pollution changes to the automotive/motorcycle world were discovered by mechanics on the floor. I remember that in the 80's maintenance-mechanics of big transportcompanies were the first to alarm manufacturers that something was really wrong when they discovered truck-engines being ruined by black sludge, caused by... recirculated blow-by gasses. New dopes in oil adressed this.

Positive crankcase ventilation has been in automotive production since the 50s or 60s.  Are you arguing that "mechanics on the floor" in the 80s took 20 years to "discover" this problem?  I do note that the 80s saw the introduction and widespread use of EGR pollution control systems.  Couldn't be that oil contamination from exhaust gases contributed to black sludge, could it?

I wonder how long the false perception that "pollution-control-device-removal-is-a-good-thing" will persist?  It was only marginally true in the early 80's when manufacturers were learning to do it properly, it is certainly NOT true today.

Regards,

[Deltarider]

 

Ever read the Honda owner's manual?

Yes, and... ?

As I recall, you also have the air restrictor that appears on .001 percent of the SOHC4 population and creates far more chamber vacuum than is seen on normal bikes.  That your's fouls with oil vapor faster than norm is understandable

I wrote: I've seen filter elements being fouled, not mine as the 500K2 originally is not even equipped with a blow-by gasdevice and I like to keep it that way.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Even sponges saturate and don't have unlimited storage space.  How many liters of gas can you store on the back of 4 tiny intake valves?

Not many, but carbon deposits do disturb the eveness (is that a word?) of the process.
 

Sure, they added detergents to clean the entire fuel system and reduce carbon deposits.  Are you seriously trying to argue that they did it expressly as a response to crankcase ventilators?

 

Yes, among other reasons.

However, dumping extra crankcase hydrocarbons into the air that your neighbor breathes, because it is somehow contrived as convenient and economical to you, is irresponsible IMO, and arguing for it, I find, rather disconcerting.

I'm glad at least one American sees the point the rest of the world (your neighbours so to speak) has been trying to make.  I can add that we, living below sea-level, see signs that more and more start listening to the best president they NEVER had.

Positive crankcase ventilation has been in automotive production since the 50s or 60s.  Are you arguing that "mechanics on the floor" in the 80s took 20 years to "discover" this problem?  I do note that the 80s saw the introduction and widespread use of EGR pollution control systems.  Couldn't be that oil contamination from exhaust gases contributed to black sludge, could it?

At the time it was caused by a combination of altered gasolines and recirculated gasses. I remember it was one of the occasions some companies were made to pay for new engines. Years later we had another thing when owners succesfully claimed their fast-revving two-stroke engines were ruined because of a 'new formula' gasoline.

I wonder how long the false perception that "pollution-control-device-removal-is-a-good-thing" will persist?  It was only marginally true in the early 80's when manufacturers were learning to do it properly, it is certainly NOT true today.

Agreed.

[TwoTired]

Ever read the Honda owner's manual?

Yes, and... ?

Every Honda owners manual I have, including the one for the Cb500 states to replace the air filter every 12 months or 10000 Kilometers, whichever comes first.

Maybe the European versions of the owners manual don't have such a schedule?  Is that why you feel filter replacement is not necessary on a yearly basis?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Even sponges saturate and don't have unlimited storage space.  How many liters of gas can you store on the back of 4 tiny intake valves?

Not many, but carbon deposits do disturb the eveness (is that a word?) of the process.

Please explain how mixtures are effected by this, as you claimed in an earlier post.

Sure, they added detergents to clean the entire fuel system and reduce carbon deposits.  Are you seriously trying to argue that they did it expressly as a response to crankcase ventilators?

 

Yes, among other reasons.

Then please explain why the major issue of crankcase gas fouling on the backs of intake valves didn't show up until the 80s, when the practice had been going on for 20 years plus.

Positive crankcase ventilation has been in automotive production since the 50s or 60s.  Are you arguing that "mechanics on the floor" in the 80s took 20 years to "discover" this problem?  I do note that the 80s saw the introduction and widespread use of EGR pollution control systems.  Couldn't be that oil contamination from exhaust gases contributed to black sludge, could it?

At the time it was caused by a combination of altered gasolines and recirculated gasses. I remember it was one of the occasions some companies were made to pay for new engines. Years later we had another thing when owners succesfully claimed their fast-revving two-stroke engines were ruined because of a 'new formula' gasoline.

Sorry, I simply can't verify your assertions pertaining to root cause.  Tort settlements aren't always based on facts, reason, or proper scientific evidence.  I can only see your assertion case supported for exhaust gas recirculation, not for crankcase vapors.  Crankcase vapor volume is so low compared to engine breathing volume that negative effects would likely be expected in a 1 percentile (or less) corner case.  And, one could argue that that is not statistically significant (or supportable for an argument).

It appears as though we will simply maintain a difference of opinion.  I do hope not too many people defeat crankcase vapor control devices based on false assumptions. 

Of course, the pod filter proponents will just laugh maniacally.

[Deltarider]

Every Honda owners manual I have, including the one for the Cb500 states to replace the air filter every 12 months or 10000 Kilometers, whichever comes first.

Save that manual very well. From experience and without asking Soichiro I know that I can easily do 18000 km with the same filter element. I have not experienced elements becoming less effective because of age alone. The one that’s in there, has been there for 3 years. I remember when we crossed the Sahara (by car) we had to clean our paper filter element sometimes every day in spite of what the manual said. That was when we had encountered traffic. Without traffic we didn’t bother. It’s the circumstances you drive in. There is a lot common sense can tell you. I can’t share your view that the element should be replaced every year because of changes in humidity. Not from experience.

Please explain how mixtures are effected by this, as you claimed in an earlier post.

What’s there to explain? Are you serious to suggest that carbon deposits on inlet valves do not interfere? Valves should be as clean as possible. Best way to assure this, is by feeding them clean gasoline, clean air and nothing else.
 

Then please explain why the major issue of crankcase gas fouling on the backs of intake valves didn't show up until the 80s, when the practice had been going on for 20 years plus.

Read carefully. That’s not what I wrote. Background is that my brothers 550 equipped with a blow-by gas device suffered from fouled paper air filter elements repeatedly. Dealers had seen this problem occur with many 550’s and disconnected the tube from the filter box. Scientific or not, it was common practice. In those days recirculating crankcase gas devices were ‘ín a bad smell’ in the professional automotive world (dealers, garagists), due to recently discovered black sludge problems associated with these devices and altered gasolines. Long scientific articles were published in AMT, a magazine that is meant for the professional automotive world only. It is not in the shop. It’s for dealers and garagists. Can they be wrong? Yes, they can. So can the professors that publish in the Lancet. You wanna discuss with them? Let me know. 

Sorry, I simply can't verify your assertions pertaining to root cause.  Tort settlements aren't always based on facts, reason, or proper scientific evidence.  I can only see your assertion case supported for exhaust gas recirculation, not for crankcase vapors.  Crankcase vapor volume is so low compared to engine breathing volume that negative effects would likely be expected in a 1 percentile (or less) corner case.  And, one could argue that that is not statistically significant (or supportable for an argument).

It appears as though we will simply maintain a difference of opinion.  I do hope not too many people defeat crankcase vapor control devices based on false assumptions. 

What is false, when there is a dirty brown oily spot in your paper filter element (both in- and outside) to assume that that can’t be good and that this particular blow-by gas device is poorly designed and needs a renewed scientific approach by it’s maker?

Of course, the pod filter proponents will just laugh maniacally.

 

Now that’s a different matter. You’ll be surprised to find I am of your opinion here. I become sad when I read that so many here look for pods and extra wide jets. From what I’ve seen it brings nothing, nothing but noise and pollution, unless you go through a long list of modifications. Same goes for aftermarket exhausts. Am I a purist then? No. I’ve changed the original rear shocks for Koni’s. At Autobahnspeeds they have some advantage. The original were more comfortable though. Another example: I’ve changed the original horn that, back then, also had to comply with American regulations (and was not very effective either) for a set of Voxbell horns, the same you’ll find in old Alfa Romeo’s and Lancia’s. Now, with a short push on the button I can scatter the walking American tourists – yes, here they walk – that are blocking the road in front of me. It’s fun. Sometimes I imagine that one of them shouts: what makes you believe your horn is louder than the original, but that must be imagination ofcourse, as I’m wearing a helmet.
Next time we’ll discuss the benefits of pleasure aircraft for the purity of Californian air. 

Yours sincerely

[TwoTired]

Every Honda owners manual I have, including the one for the Cb500 states to replace the air filter every 12 months or 10000 Kilometers, whichever comes first.

Save that manual very well. From experience and without asking Soichiro I know that I can easily do 18000 km with the same filter element. I have not experienced elements becoming less effective because of age alone. The one that’s in there, has been there for 3 years. I remember when we crossed the Sahara (by car) we had to clean our paper filter element sometimes every day in spite of what the manual said. That was when we had encountered traffic. Without traffic we didn’t bother. It’s the circumstances you drive in. There is a lot common sense can tell you. I can’t share your view that the element should be replaced every year because of changes in humidity. Not from experience.

It's true that a paper filter may not clog from particulates in 10000k.  However, the filter paper is not waterproof.  Simple humidity in the air softens the paper, it begins to collapse, and the paper loses it's "fluff", narrowing the air passageways.  This causes increased air restriction and a general enrichment of the carb mixtures due to deeper vacuum reflected in the carb throats.  While you can back flow the filter with compressed air to flush out some particulates, you cannot re-fluff the paper to open the passageways as new.  I don't live in a particularly dusty area (San Fransisco bay Area).  But, we do have a rainy season where humidity is fairly high.  Fuel mileage got noticeably worse as the rainy season progressed and spark plugs sooted up more severely (when I still used a paper filter).  Simply renewing the filter cured the issue.  It is clear that my experience fully supports Honda's filter replacement schedule.  If you live in a area that has no rain or humidity and is free of dust,  I admit the filter could last longer than 10000k.  But, if that's the case, what's the point of having a filter at all?

Please explain how mixtures are effected by this, as you claimed in an earlier post.

What’s there to explain? Are you serious to suggest that carbon deposits on inlet valves do not interfere? Valves should be as clean as possible. Best way to assure this, is by feeding them clean gasoline, clean air and nothing else.

1. -  I don't agree that simple crankcase vapors alone significantly carbon the backs of intake valves.  I maintain this is unproven conjecture.
2. - If the backs of valves became fouled, it does not change the volume of air/fuel drawn by the chamber.  Therefore mixture ratios are NOT changed.
3. - Are you seriously arguing that (if valve fouling is present) the engine will pollute more hydrocarbons out the exhaust than the engine breather hydrocarbons dumped into the atmosphere?
 

It appears as though we will simply maintain a difference of opinion.  I do hope not too many people defeat crankcase vapor control devices based on false assumptions. 

What is false, when there is a dirty brown oily spot in your paper filter element (both in- and outside) to assume that that can’t be good and that this particular blow-by gas device is poorly designed and needs a renewed scientific approach by it’s maker?

I still maintain that you are using the filter beyond proper service life and any oil saturation is either irrelevant or due to the removal/failure of the foam breather element which is part of the engine breather system.  Come to think of it, the old filter I saw with oil contamination in my acquired bikes, also had the foam element removed or damaged and the rubber seal missing.  You cannot condemn a design based on a failure to maintain to manufacturer recommended practices or configuration.

Next time we’ll discuss the benefits of pleasure aircraft for the purity of Californian air. 

Best not.  I am a pilot and have my own aircraft to fly for pleasure.  And, if you DO go there, I will maintain that some bureaucrat should also specify what vehicle you must purchase for your own transportation needs.  Oh, and forget completely countryside wasteful joyrides in your polluting vehicle of choice.  Personal transportation, then, should only allowed for the benefit of society, not the individual.  Bureaucrats are very good at making rules and conditions that apply to someone else, so long as they personally are not affected.  Then there are parallels to be drawn to personal boating, recreational snowmobiles, horses, pets, etc., all dumping C02 and other pollutants into the air.

Besides, that would be yet another thread hijack...best found in the open forum.

[Deltarider]

Simple humidity in the air softens the paper, it begins to collapse, and the paper loses it's "fluff", narrowing the air passageways.

All I can say is that so far my airfilter did not encounter your ´simple humidity´. Nor have I found literature confirming your statement, other than K&N marketing material, that is echoed over and over again in various fora. What could affect a paper element though, is a salty sea air environment like the Bay Area. Even the thinnest crust of salt will continue to attract moisture.

I don't agree that simple crankcase vapors alone significantly carbon the backs of intake valves.  I maintain this is unproven conjecture.

Not alone. It’s (acid) vapours containing carbon, gasoline and a hot surface combined. Newly developped gasolines could adress this fouling. I can mail you pagelong articles on the subject published in the professional magazine I’ve mentioned before. You’ll have to find an interpreter though, as it is in Dutch.

If the backs of valves became fouled, it does not change the volume of air/fuel drawn by the chamber.

You make me curious. You could be in for the Nobelprice for physic. Remember we talk gasses here.

Therefore mixture ratios are NOT changed.

Carbon deposits will interfere by causing uneveness. Outcome: irregularities (I believe ‘misses’ is the word?) resulting in less drivebility and more pollution.

Are you seriously arguing that (if valve fouling is present) the engine will pollute more hydrocarbons out the exhaust than the engine breather hydrocarbons dumped into the atmosphere?

No, I do not and I did not. The issue was that here (and then) mechanics wisely advised to disconnect the breather tube from the airfiltercase as it continuously fouled the paper airfilterelement.
At that same time, in the professional automotive world, blow-by gas devices were in ‘a bad smell’.
Where you start with suspicions that they have misunderstood something, I have indications these mechanics were right. In the first place from what I’ve seen with my own eyes, secondly… read further on.

  You cannot condemn a design based on a failure to maintain to manufacturer recommended practices or configuration.

Lets do this scientifically, shall we? On my desk are the parts lists of the
1.   CB550F/F1 page 66
2.   CB550F2    page 61
3.   CB500K3/550k3/550K4 page 72
If you examine the partnumbers you will notice that specifically the parts involved have been modified and nothing else. The so called ‘cover air cleaner element’ has been modified even two times.
Now, why would Honda’s R&D have modified the design of these parts?
Could it be that mechanics on the floor had encountered problems with the device and this has come to the attention of R&D? Could that explain why the device, after being introduced on earlier models, all of a sudden vanishes and “the breather tube has been rerouted” as shown in the Supplement to the CB550K2 (’76) in Honda’s Workshop Manual on page 170? Shown in that picture is the old situation again with the breather tube ventilating (shame, shame, shame) in the open air again. Peculiar, isn’t it?
I find Work Shop Manuals and Parts Lists far more interesting than Owner Manual's. How about you?

I am a pilot and have my own aircraft to fly for pleasure.  And, if you DO go there, I will maintain that some bureaucrat should also specify… etc, etc.

Don’t you think you lecturing others on environmental issues is a bit out of place? Maybe whilst flying your pleasurecraft and overlooking the hundreds of thousands of cars below you, you are satisfied to know that their crankcase breathertubes are well connected. Do I understand well, that when, let´s say, the Chinese start to commute with Hummers, V8’s, they can expect from you, their neighbours, nothing but applause for finally finding the same “freedom” you enjoy? 

Cheers,

is your name rodney king?

 
Dusterdude, as I remember well Rodney King, unlike me, was in a car. Nowadays there is a growing number of people that feel that everybody in a car without a good reason, deserves a spanking.