Topic: 2009 Indian Chief

[bill440cars]

        Finally, an indication of what's to come from Indian.

         



         http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/

[Badger 5]

I didn't know Indian was back again.  Who is running it this time?

[ProTeal55]

The company that owns Chris Craft boats bought the rights to the name/re-did the company and now is the owner of Indian..

Curious to see how much these #$%*es are once they come out...

[HITMAN]

I'd be curious about the price too.

When they first came back out, they cost more than a Harley.  Had so much hope for Norton that I toured the shop, but they too priced themselves right out of the market.

[Raul CB750K1]

Would those investors let the Indian name rest in peace rather than relive it just to let it shamefully die in a couple of years?

[bill440cars]

          You can be sure that the price will be UP there! And, as far as where they are from, they are located in King's Mountain, North Carolina. And, this company is known for turning companies around did so for Chriscraft boats.

          And I don't believe these folks are going would do the job halfway, just to have it fail. They have a reputation to protect!
 
                              Later on, Bill

[cb650]

In the last ownership roush was supposed to build the indian engine when they used up the s&s BS.
Sorry but like the Guzzi better.





                            Terry

[BobbyR]

I think the timing is wrong for pricey bikes. Harley had to shut down their plants for a week due to too much idle inventory.

[bill440cars]

I think the timing is wrong for pricey bikes. Harley had to shut down their plants for a week due to too much idle inventory.

          That's possible Bobby. I would say that maybe it's cause some folks are getting a bit tired of the "Harley Thing" and want something different? I know, but it was just a Hopeful thought. They're talking about a few variations of the chief for now and are working up plans for some different models to come later. Even though I can't afford something like that (and I know that they aren't the same as the old original Indians), I'd still like top see the Indian name back out there with the rest of them! This bunch that has control of Indian for now, has the reputation for doing what they set out to do and I, for one, hope they can pull it off! I do know that they did a lot of research, before they decided whether to redo the product, or just scrap it and start all over again and it looks like they might be going to refine what they had, for starters. We'll just have to see how it goes!

                             Later on, Bill    

[fastdadd]

i think if they keep the prices fair but under a harley they will move fast

[KB02]

i think if they keep the prices fair but under a harley they will move fast

Yeah, look at Polaris.    The Victory bikes are nice riding machines.

Personally, though, that picture of the Indian does nothing for me. I mean, it screams, "Hey, look! This is the same bike that has been built 800 times before by 400 different companies and we have absolutely no creativity to come out with something new!!"

... Okay, most cruisers scream that. And I realize that they have to appeal to certain market to get the ball rolling, but this whole push on cruisers has got to be coming to an end sometime soon, doesn't it? I've been bored for YEARS with the cruiser market. I like the Victory Hammer and the Harley Davidson Sportster Nightster... and that's about it, really. It's time for something new, you know?

I wish them luck, I really do, but I pray that they don't become just another producer of cruisers only." Get the company established with the cruisers and then actually open the mind to the other aspects of the motorcycle industry.

[bill440cars]

       Hey KB,

              I think Primarily, They are just trying to get back in the swing of things. As far as the style goes, Indian created  that particular "Style" back in the 1940s. A lot of folks connect that "Style" with the Indian name. They are supposed to have several variations of the Chief when they come out and are working on some other undisclosed models as well. And the best I can remember, no one had copied that look, until Kawasaki brought out an 800cc and a 1100cc versions. I understand what you are saying but, I believe you kinda exaggerated on the numbers ("800times before by 400 different companies),huh? They'll never be what the original was but, they are trying to put the Indian name back out there where it should be and how it should be. So, with that being said, I'm expecting BIG things from them (even though I won't be able to actually buy one) and hope they can succeed in style.

                                     Later on, Bill  

[azuredesign]

I'm not sure there's going to be a lot of innovation when the technology is coming from engineers with primarily Harley experience, but at least they're building engines and trannys in house. I agree that this is a difficult time to introduce an expensive bike mass market. With designing and building the hardware in house, the principles will either have to mass market because they've spent a lot of dough on development, which will be tough, or build a boutique bike for limited production, with less money for R&D, which will also be tough as it will just be the same old same old.
Would be great with me if they designed a 4 cylinder V, although there's no incentive if they're just going to put it in a retro cruiser style bike. Poor Indian, the name seems tied to cool stuff that was outengeered by Harley 60 years ago. It's almost like the marque is cursed.

[gerhed]

At the very least, maybe they'll put out some decent t-shirts.
I could use a set of those fenders too, of course,

[KB02]

I understand what you are saying but, I believe you kinda exaggerated on the numbers ("800times before by 400 different companies),huh? They'll never be what the original was but, they are trying to put the Indian name back out there where it should be and how it should be. So, with that being said, I'm expecting BIG things from them (even though I won't be able to actually buy one) and hope they can succeed in style.

Perhaps there is a slight exageration in those figures.    Like I said, I've just been bored with cruisers for years already. The Cheif is destinctive, that's true. BUT, if you look at their website, they tout the racing history of Indian. I just really hope they don't tout it like the 50 year old fat man that talks all about how he played football in highschool. I hope they go back to the track. I mean I'm not expecting an Indian Racing Team in '09, but I do hope they have some ideas for the future when (Let's be positive) they get everything going.

[azuredesign]

I just really hope they don't tout it like the 50 year old fat man that talks all about how he played football in highschool.

OUCH!

[bill440cars]

        You know, seems like some negative talk is coming from folks who might not really know some details and facts about the Indian and H-D deal. I've got nothing against the folks who ride H-Ds and will not get into a back and forth go-round about them. I WILL say however, the fact that AMF & Aermachi (or however you spell it) was involved with them helped them stay afloat. Then, their stockholders managed to take the company over. Indian's main problems were mismanagement, not planning ahead (developing the bikes as the should) and bad moves, as far as trying to put bikes out before they were actually ready. And, let's talk about progress. H-D went a lot of years before FINALLY starting to show that they were trying to update their bikes to compete with the newer ones. For Indian not to have been in decent production since 1953 (and the Chief was the one that was last to fall), there are a pretty sizable number of them out there, still yet. And, even though I was born (1947) & raised around my Grandfather's (Indian) Motorcycle Shop (started n 1932, until his death, in 1968), I thought that, if I was to ever get a H-D, it's be a Sportster. Then I rode one. Not in your wildest dreams will I ever own one. Again, I'm not saying anything about anyone's taste it they have or are into them, that's your choice. Ordinarily, I won't cut on anyone's choice of anything, just give me the same respect. Personally, I feel good about the efforts to bring Indian back and I hope it works out (knowing I won't be able to afford one). I also hated to see the New Norton revival have problems. I don't have a thing for Cruisers myself and I'm not fond enough of the "Sport Bikes" to have one. I've seen some of both of them that I thought looked pretty good. Would I want one, not really. All I'm trying to say, is try to be open minded. Why go cutting on something that you probably wouldn't consider buying anyway? If you are going to go doing that though, maybe you should look back into the facts, instead of drawing conclusions.

              Now that I've said all that, I hope it will be read with an open mind in it's entirety.

                                   Later on, Bill      

[Raul CB750K1]

From what I read some time ago, the american importer of BSA and other british marques, bought Indian..... only to use the network of dealership. In the late 40's, british sport bikes were the rage, and the buyer couldn't care less for the Indian, whose main attraction, the chief, remain unchanged for many years and only when DuPont was the owner offered something like 30 different colors for the same model.

You know who will succeed? The italian Benelli. Bought by a giant chinese bike manufacturer, Benelli bikes like the Tornado or the Cafe Racer are still build in Italy, but the plans are that they will be manufactured in China. Can you imagine buying a Benelli Cafe Racer for less than a Honda Fireblade or a Suzuki Gixxer?




Now that's a good selling policy. With a right price tag, you can sell anything. Nobody will pay more for a new Indian, built by people who are not bikers, and suspect of many early teething problems. And if you use an engine by another supplier, you can't claim the "heritage" factor, the only reason why somebody in the 21st century would buy a bike with an engine with pushrods.


I think the best idea would be to rebadge chinese bikes, but increasing the overall quality, and once the brand is stablished, start to spend the dollars on the development of a propietary engine -something that can take very much money-. Or reach an agreement with any of the four big japanese brands, to launch limited edition of rebadged japanese bikes. Anything with a "limited edition" and a serial number will sell like hotcakes.

[bill440cars]

        You are right Raul, the Indian dealership network was used by them alright and also the Indian model names (that were used on the Indian/Enfields) were used on the Matchless motorcycles for awhile and the Chief that you are referring to, was the Royal Enfield/Indian version. 





         I apologize, I used to know where I could find a brochure on line that I could show but I can's seem to find it for now.

                                      Later on, Bill

[KB02]

I think the best idea would be to rebadge chinese bikes, but increasing the overall quality, and once the brand is stablished, start to spend the dollars on the development of a propietary engine -something that can take very much money-. Or reach an agreement with any of the four big japanese brands, to launch limited edition of rebadged japanese bikes. Anything with a "limited edition" and a serial number will sell like hotcakes.

Yeah, but isn't that basically what they tried to do a couple of years ago? Just a basic cruiser frame with an S&S power plant, some new tins and the Indian Badges? (Personally) I prefer they way they're doing it now. A re-badged Honda is still a Honda (Not that there's anything wrong with Honda's  ) and it would be a long time before they got any respect from the "American V-Twin" consortium.

[Raul CB750K1]

I think the best idea would be to rebadge chinese bikes, but increasing the overall quality, and once the brand is stablished, start to spend the dollars on the development of a propietary engine -something that can take very much money-. Or reach an agreement with any of the four big japanese brands, to launch limited edition of rebadged japanese bikes. Anything with a "limited edition" and a serial number will sell like hotcakes.

Yeah, but isn't that basically what they tried to do a couple of years ago? Just a basic cruiser frame with an S&S power plant, some new tins and the Indian Badges? (Personally) I prefer they way they're doing it now. A re-badged Honda is still a Honda (Not that there's anything wrong with Honda's  ) and it would be a long time before they got any respect from the "American V-Twin" consortium.

The difference is that, even with an S&S engine, the manufacturing cost with american workers would be prohibitive. Harley had already paid for their tooling and plants along the years; a new factory would have to divide the cost by the number of units sold. If you buy the bikes from another manufacturer, you can be more cost -effective. Well, I'm no economist, I guess one could explain it better.

What I mean, is that a new Fat Boy is about 20.000 euro in Spain. A Honda VTX is 14.000 euro. I won't spend 22.000 euro in a new Indian, but I would probably spend 17.000 in a Honda rebadged as Indian. I could have the japanese technology and the Indian heritage, look the other jap cruisers -though blood brothers- above my shoulders, an differentiate myself from the "one percenters", saving some money on the process.


Again, any economist will tell you that the right price for anything is the price that people is willing to pay. Starbucks coffee works this way: with the same basic product -coffee-, they sell froth or whipped cream at $1 to those who "want to feel special". Why not feeling special by buying a Indian Honda? Mmmm, I think it's time to register the name "Inda" or "Hondian"..... off to the patent office.   

[ProTeal55]

The "new" Indian will be around for many many years.
The company that now owns them has more $$ than god, so they have spent the cash
to make the product better than it ever has been (look at ChrisCraft). Everything from the bike itself,dealers to the logos have been gone over with a fine tooth comb (100 times over)...

And whoever thinks these bikes will be less $$$ than a comparable HD is foolish.

[azuredesign]

        You know, seems like some negative talk is coming from folks who might not really know some details and facts about the Indian and H-D deal. I've got nothing against the folks who ride H-Ds and will not get into a back and forth go-round about them. I WILL say however, the fact that AMF & Aermachi (or however you spell it) was involved with them helped them stay afloat. Then, their stockholders managed to take the company over. Indian's main problems were mismanagement, not planning ahead (developing the bikes as the should) and bad moves, as far as trying to put bikes out before they were actually ready. And, let's talk about progress. H-D went a lot of years before FINALLY starting to show that they were trying to update their bikes to compete with the newer ones. For Indian not to have been in decent production since 1953 (and the Chief was the one that was last to fall), there are a pretty sizable number of them out there, still yet. And, even though I was born (1947) & raised around my Grandfather's (Indian) Motorcycle Shop (started n 1932, until his death, in 1968), I thought that, if I was to ever get a H-D, it's be a Sportster. Then I rode one. Not in your wildest dreams will I ever own one. Again, I'm not saying anything about anyone's taste it they have or are into them, that's your choice. Ordinarily, I won't cut on anyone's choice of anything, just give me the same respect. Personally, I feel good about the efforts to bring Indian back and I hope it works out (knowing I won't be able to afford one). I also hated to see the New Norton revival have problems. I don't have a thing for Cruisers myself and I'm not fond enough of the "Sport Bikes" to have one. I've seen some of both of them that I thought looked pretty good. Would I want one, not really. All I'm trying to say, is try to be open minded. Why go cutting on something that you probably wouldn't consider buying anyway? If you are going to go doing that though, maybe you should look back into the facts, instead of drawing conclusions.

              Now that I've said all that, I hope it will be read with an open mind in it's entirety.

                                   Later on, Bill      

Bill,

I hope your comments weren't incited by my post. I am impressed by your family history with Indian, and owned a 47 Chief myself at one time. In reading more about the demise of Indian, it does appear true that Indian had marketing and financial woes that casued the company to fail.

That being said, my primary comment was in the context of a new Indian flavor of V twin competing with Harley, and a jillion other small, high end Harley derivative bikes in a worsening financial climate where there are acurrently a surfeit of unsold bikes. My concern is that the new venture is coming to market in a tough time and environment. I think Indians(except for the last incarnation) are cool, and I think it's great that the mechanical parts are being made in house. I just think it's going to be an uphill grind.

All best,
Ben

[bill440cars]

   

Bill,

I hope your comments weren't incited by my post. I am impressed by your family history with Indian, and owned a 47 Chief myself at one time. In reading more about the demise of Indian, it does appear true that Indian had marketing and financial woes that casued the company to fail.

That being said, my primary comment was in the context of a new Indian flavor of V twin competing with Harley, and a jillion other small, high end Harley derivative bikes in a worsening financial climate where there are acurrently a surfeit of unsold bikes. My concern is that the new venture is coming to market in a tough time and environment. I think Indians(except for the last incarnation) are cool, and I think it's great that the mechanical parts are being made in house. I just think it's going to be an uphill grind.

All best,
Ben

           Ben, I have to admit that there were some things said that kinda got to me. I think the fact that I'm dealing with some issues that have got me a bit out of sorts, didn't help. I've had folks go talking about things like that before, that really didn't know as much as they should have, before they started talking about stuff. It IS cool that you had an old Chief at one time. I know I sent you a PM but, felt I needed to say this on the forum to let others know why I kinda got up on that subject. I have alot to deal with and I try hard to keep it separate but, sometimes, I'm a little out of sorts and it affects me when I'm on a forum and I apologize for that.

                                    Later on, Bill   

[KB02]

Yeah, me too. Sorry if my comments in this post were a bit offensive to anyone.

BUT, ( ) to respond as for price, Then bikes are going to have to be priced at least close to Harely. Do I see them being cheaper? Not really. Do I see them selling well if they cost several thousand more? only to those who "Must Have an Indian."

As an example, my dad is planning on buying a 2008 Goldwing in the spring. He is planning on getting the Top of the line model with every possible feature known to motorcycling (Hell, it's got an Air bag for crying out loud). He's planning on paying in the low to mid $20K's for it. Do you think he's pay a few more thousand for a bar bones Chief? While some people might say yes, my Dad would say no. If that was the style of bike that he wanted to buy (Chief Style), then he would have all sorts of options to choose from and would most likely go with the best deal (cheapest).

Also, look at the new Can-Am Spyders. Here is a company (Bombardie), that has money like Kris Kraft, that came out with a whole new product. New absolutely everything with brand new technology to keep them on all three no matter what (I've ridden one - they're awesome!). They're pricing these machines at around $14-$15K. That machine will sell. Hopefully, Indian will price similarly . We'll see.