Topic: Transistorized igntion: results so far.

[HondaMan]

Hey Mark...
Testing is still going well...Had a carb issue last week...# 3 idle jet plugged....so went ahead and did a full tune-up.
Cleaned the carbs etc.  How DOES that crud find it's way to the carbs...I got the filter sock and an in line filter, the tank is clean and I still get some fine silt in the bottome of the carb bowls???
I Let the bike idle for quite a while doing the sync on the carbs and getting the mixtures right...just had a box fan on the engine...the Ignition box got QUITE warm...almost too hot to touch.
Bike is still running great...I seem to get better performance all through the RPM range really...Low speed is the most noticeable, but as you say...after about 5000 it really comes on well too.
I've got about 1400 miles on it now...you want another 600 or so before I send it back???
Went by the Barber Museum yesterday to see my buddies there...the California superbike school was there...lots of screaming scoots on the track!

Hi, "H"!
Well, it's about time to call in the cows on that one. The heating you noticed when it was idling is part of that "extra hot" business I built into the test units. The cases can reach 160 degrees. Not enough to hurt anyone seriously, but not comfortable. Although, if you lived further north, it might make a nice seat heater in the winter riding months!

Let me know what type of coils you will be using so I can make up a replacement unit for you. Then drop me a PM so we can make swap-out arrangements and I can get that one back for the post-mortem measuring stuff.

[Terry in Australia]

Well after spending the last couple of months away from home working on Army, Airforce and Navy bases I'm trying to pick up where I left off, and so my task today (well one of them anyway.........) was to install Marks "test" ignition on my K0 that I bought from Andy Morris in Long Island, NY.

The K0 is in pretty good condition overall, starts quite easily and runs pretty well, but of course I haven't had much time to ride it, (in fact, I haven't ridden it further than around my back yard) so it's started to miss and fart a bit lately.

Today I looked up at the sky and was rewarded with a face full of misty rain, so needless to say, i wasn't going too far. No biggie, the bike's not registered yet anyway, and I'm waiting for a set of new NGK Iridium plugs, so I figured I'd just install it and fire it up to see if there was any noticable differences, while I'm waiting for my new (free) plugs. (I won "letter of the month" in a bike magazine that I occasionally buy)

The install was simplicity itself, I fitted a NOS OEM points plate assembly even though the points plate assembly in it was pretty good, but I wanted to start with perfect parts. Mark gives you plenty of wire with his kits so there are no drama's stretching wires from the ignition box across to the points assembly or up to the coil wire connections etc. I made up a "two into one" connector so as to be able to connect the power wire from the brake light across to the ignition box, and of course disconnected the condensors.

I "Looped" the excess wire and used cable ties to tie the excess away to the back of the battery box, (I'd dropped the oil tank bolts so I could move the tank away from the frame to access the ignition wires) so with the oil tank back in place, they were invisible.

Once it was all ready to go, I fired it up (which took a bit as the battery is probably in need of a charge) but it only ran on two cylinders! "Uh oh, I've been here before", I thought to myself, but suddenly the other two kicked in, and it ran fine, and as has been mentioned before, it seemed to warm up a lot quicker requiring almost no choke once the engine was running.

By this time (about an hour to install it, but that included installing the new points plate assembly, making up a "two into one" power wire, and timing it with my timing light) the rain had stopped, but as I would have had to move a couple of cars to take it out onto the road I just ran it for a little while longer and did a couple of laps around my back yard, but it did feel good. I switched it off a couple of times and restarted it, and both times it was instantanious, so I reckon there's an improvement there too. I can hardly wait until I can get it out on the road and actually do some miles on it! Cheers, Terry.

 

[clarkjh]

Terry

Big Aussie like you scared of a little rain?
I put one on my 550 and it worked like a charm.  Like you said, lots of wire, so no need for the "wire stretcher".  Washed the bike after the install and firering on 3 , screwed the cap back on #2 and ran on all four.  As for the wet, not even so much as a "hiccup", other then I found a hole in my rain pants at a certain embarrassing spot .

James

PS:
Hondaman, I am a happy customer, and will recommend this upgrade to anyone who asks.

[HondaMan]

Terry

Big Aussie like you scared of a little rain?
I put one on my 550 and it worked like a charm.  Like you said, lots of wire, so no need for the "wire stretcher".  Washed the bike after the install and firering on 3 , screwed the cap back on #2 and ran on all four.  As for the wet, not even so much as a "hiccup", other then I found a hole in my rain pants at a certain embarrassing spot .

James

PS:
Hondaman, I am a happy customer, and will recommend this upgrade to anyone who asks.

Sorry about those rain pants: my Dry Rider has a crack right by the neck, so it drools down my back on a real bad day... 

Terry: About that startup miss with new points plate, here's a thought: is there any cosmolene on those points? Honda used to ship them to the U.S. in the 1970s and -80s coated with the stuff, and we would have to clean the points before use or they would burn quickly. The cosmolene is supposed to prevent arcing, but until it burns off, it can also interrupt lower currents, like this ignition has... I think you are also the first one to use new points with it: everyone else has just been installing it, as far as I've heard.

[Joel]

Now you've got me curious, how does the points setup manage to have the longer "off" time after the trigger?  Isn't it always exactly the same number of degrees of rotation, which would mean much shorter at higher RPM?  Are we talking about the measurement known as dwell?

The "off" time in the Dyna S is controlled by the diameter of the little magnets that pass by the Hall Effect switch. This time is small at higher RPM: the magnet is only about 1/4" across the face, which is the "dwell" for the "off" time. The dwell of the Honda cam is almost 180 mechanical degrees (I think it's closer to 160 mechanical crank degrees), or 1/2 turn. Longer dwell is useful at higher engine speeds because it allows more saturation time for the coil, but if the "off" time is too short, the coil starts getting charged again before it fully breaks down the magnetic field, following the spark jump. This causes a slower rate of charge ("rise time") for the next inrush of current, and the overall spark voltage starts to droop. Honda's design is almost 50/50 charge/discharge, which really helps flatten out the "high spots" in the circuits's 'Q', or resonance, because the charge is almost always fully dissipated magnetically before the next one starts. However, the stock coils have a short discharge time, so at low RPM they tend to heat more, reducing their efficiency.

It's a balancing act for designers....   

Would increasing the diameter of the signal magnet increase the dwell time?

[Terry in Australia]

Terry: About that startup miss with new points plate, here's a thought: is there any cosmolene on those points? Honda used to ship them to the U.S. in the 1970s and -80s coated with the stuff, and we would have to clean the points before use or they would burn quickly. The cosmolene is supposed to prevent arcing, but until it burns off, it can also interrupt lower currents, like this ignition has... I think you are also the first one to use new points with it: everyone else has just been installing it, as far as I've heard.

G'Day Mark, "Cosmolene"? Hmmnnn, maybe that's it! I did wipe the points with a clean cloth, but what do I need to do to remove the Cosmolene?

Anyhoo, the weather here was really strange today, sunny and almost warm, and funnily enough, it didn't start to get dark until 6pm, so when I got home tonight about 5:45 after physiotherapy, I was rewarded with my long anticipated box of Iridium sparkplugs, so I headed out to the garage!

Obviously Andy Morris had recently replaced the plugs with new NGK D8EA plugs, so I kept them for spares, installed the Iridiums, hit the button, and VROOM! It started right away with only enough choke to fire it up, then happily idled (well, a little roughly, but they are cable carbs........) at 1000 RPM. 

Now of course the "doubting Thomases" out there can say that a new points plate assembly and new Iridium plugs with Dyna 5 Ohm coils and 8mm wires are probably enough to make it run pretty sweet, but I do feel that the "Hondaman" ignition is having a really positive effect, it feels very similar to the ignition on my K1, (Dyna "S" and Dyna 3 Ohm coils) without the increased power draw, switching the headlight on at idle with the engine still cold had no effect on the idle speed or "load", whereas on the K1, (admittedly with a H4 headlight) this is more obvious. 

Of course the best test (at least for a non-technocrat like Neanderthal me) is the "seat of the pants" test, so I better replace those clutch plates so I can take it for a ride! I'll report back later............... Cheers, Terry.   

[HondaMan]

That Asian cosmolene is a mixture of fish oils and naptha when they spray it on. The naptha dries, leaving the protective oily film...that's the funny smell they have...electrical contact cleaner, more naptha, or brake cleaner like trichlorethane or similar stuff will clean them out between the contacts: open the points up, spray in some cleaner, then take a clean, white business card, close the points on it, and drag it around inside the points to "scrub" and wipe while the stuff is drying. Don't drag the card out sideways afterward, or it will leave little shreds in between the points: open them up and remove the card. You'll see the goop on the card afterward. If the points are pitted from use with a coil already, you might have to polish down that pitting with a points file or fine emery cloth first, after which the points will be REAL dirty, and need this whole treatment, anyway.

The fish oils are organic enough that the sparking caused by the coils in normal use will burn away the oils, but will also accelerate the points wear because it started the pitting right away. Ah, the world of Kettering ignitions....old cars are the same way...

[NPHLYT]

Do you have a kit that will work on a 1981 CB650SC Nighthawk?

[dusterdude]

doesnt your bike have electronic ignition?

[Pinhead]

Yeah, all of the 650's have electronic CDI ignition. This electronic box wouldn't help the 650's in any fashion.

[HondaMan]

Do you have a kit that will work on a 1981 CB650SC Nighthawk?

I think you already have electronic ignition. 

[NPHLYT]

Do you have a kit that will work on a 1981 CB650SC Nighthawk?

I think you already have electronic ignition. 

Well, this shows you how much I know about motorcycles. I guess I should have brought my Clymer's manual to work and crammed for this quiz.

The bike is still pretty cold blooded, I am excited to see how it is in the winter 

[peten]

Haha! That's a trick question!  Honda didn't make a Nighthawk in '81.  First model year for the CB650SC was 1982.  If yours is an '81, then it is a CB650 or CB650C.

[NPHLYT]

Haha! That's a trick question!  Honda didn't make a Nighthawk in '81.  First model year for the CB650SC was 1982.  If yours is an '81, then it is a CB650 or CB650C.

Hrmmm, now I am concerned  . But since I am on the opposite side of the planet from my bike I cannot look at the frame. But I guess I will have egg on my face.

[loonymoon]

Bob the mechanic who's currently looking after my bike said he's put the electronic ignition from Hondaman into my bike and it works very well, runs very sweet and doesn't smoke (pipe 3 used to smoke occasionally which we thought was sticking rings) He wants to take it for run sometime, but doesn't see the point in opening the bike up mechanicallywhich is good news for me as it'll save me some money!!

Can't wait to get the bike back and give it a ride... actually scrub that now would be the worst time of year to get the bike back what with the frost and salt on the roads... just have to wait for warmer salt free weather.

 

[HondaMan]

Bob the mechanic who's currently looking after my bike said he's put the electronic ignition from Hondaman into my bike and it works very well, runs very sweet and doesn't smoke (pipe 3 used to smoke occasionally which we thought was sticking rings) He wants to take it for run sometime, but doesn't see the point in opening the bike up mechanicallywhich is good news for me as it'll save me some money!!

Can't wait to get the bike back and give it a ride... actually scrub that now would be the worst time of year to get the bike back what with the frost and salt on the roads... just have to wait for warmer salt free weather.

 

 LM: if you can find some over there, get a can of BG44K from BG corporation, then mix about 2 ounces of it into a full tank of gas. After that tank is used up, run a fresh tank trhu, then repeat ("Rinse and repeat", like the shampoo bottle says?). If you have a sticking ring(s), this will likely clean it up, easily. The BG44K is not cheap ($28 USD per can), but it really is worth it.

[loonymoon]

Thanks Hondaman. Bob mentioned that he was going to try various concoctions to "unstick" the rings. I don't know if he's tried any of them yet - or what he was going to use. Perhaps he's waiting until he's test ridden it with the new ignition to see if it still needs it. He says it no longer smokes, at least when run in the workshop.

I'll keep that in mind though for future reference.. if I can find it here.