Topic: this bike is not stolen...i repeat...not stolen

[possum2082]

okay, i just went outside...it's hard to feel if it's perfectly round.  what looks like a blatant flat spot on the tube in the pic looks to me in person to be a shadow/glare.

[333]

Any chance of legal recourse against the guy you bought it from?

[Kevin400F]

Interesting pic, since the '77 CB550K did not come with fork gaiters, and those are not '77 model headlight ears.  Are the passenger pegs on tubular brackets, or on a "slab" of pressed/welded sheet metal?   

[possum2082]

i don't believe they are tubular...off the top of my head of course.

legal action is a moot point.  i only payed $200 for the bike and he lives 200 miles away.  it wouldn't be worth it in small claims court. 

interesting about the headlight bracket.  the engine is definitely a 76.  i did a little research.  however, i assumed that after 30 years, the engine might have been replaced.

what do i do next?

[Johnie]

How much does annual vehicle registration cost in the US? I imagine it varies from state to state, but I'm interested to hear what you guys are paying? Cheers, Terry.

Terry...in WI we pay $78 for a non-expiring registration for any bike 20+ years old.  I then paid another $25 or so for the collector plate.  If I sell the bike the collector plate stays with me for another bike unless I release it to another person.

[Kevin400F]

Shoot a pic of the passenger peg brackets and post it for us to have a look.  Passenger peg mounts for a '77 550K should look like the ones in the attached pic.  If the frame was an earlier model and fraudulently misrepresented as a '77, it would be best to not try and register it. 

[754]

Try this..
without looking at the neck, move two fingers back and forth from the seam towards the tank. Do this lightly and move up and down. If there is a flat or bump spot you will feel it. Fingers have a very sensitiive feel if done right.

I can not think of a legit scenario for it not to have numbers, I have bought a Honda with unnumbered cases that were replaced.. but most reggies require frame numbers.

Also if ever inspected by police while out riding, most cops in the know would not allow a bike to be ridden off with no numbers. And any cop doing these checks a few times knows where they should be.

[Geeto67]

I can not think of a legit scenario for it not to have numbers, I have bought a Honda with unnumbered cases that were replaced.. but most reggies require frame numbers.

Also if ever inspected by police while out riding, most cops in the know would not allow a bike to be ridden off with no numbers. And any cop doing these checks a few times knows where they should be.

As mentioned before honda replacement frames had no numbers. NOS Honda frames are as rare as hens teeth made out of rocking horse crap. The first last and only time I saw them was when a closed down dealer was selling their inventory on ebay about 3 years ago, they had 5 NOS frames sans numbers for 70's hondas (including 1 cb750 frame). The standard procedure would be for the dealer doing the frame replacement to stamp the numbers into it. Also if a bike was re-registered with a state issued vin, sometimes the state grinds the numbers off the frame and replaces it with a sticker (but that title does not look like a state issued vin).

However, the frame in this case looks like someone just ground the numbers off. As said previously, if it isn't a '77 frame, I would probably not register that bike at all and go look for a new frame and title.

[fmctm1sw]

Because chop shops would use clean titles to register stolen vehicles of like kind.  The physical number verification makes that routine problematic.

Even still a lot of states don't require a physical inspection of the vin when registering the bike (a majority of the states actually). I was more curious if this was something that was required of all bikes registered in kentucky or if something else triggered this.

Interesting topic.  I know Florida requires a VIN inspection, but only if it's the first time you register it in the state.  And the mention of the metal tag...  Yeah, I had my handlebars turned to give the guy a good look at it.  He ignored the tag and found the stamped numbers on the frame (then proceded to write it down wrong).  I had to convince him I was certain it was at least "CB350F" something.  I think he wrote "CD" at first...

[754]

I was not saying blank frames did not exist, but for them to hit the streets they should get numbered.. unless it is still a motor registered state.

Which may have occured in some places as HD big twins prior to about 68 had no frame numbers.

[possum2082]

here's a pic of the passenger peg for id purposes:


i think we can say that the bike may in fact be stolen contrary to what the title of this thread says 

oh man. 

[Kevin400F]

The frame is the '77 style.....a glimmer of hope, at least.  If you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN the VIN number is clean, and you've got a legit title with that number, you might want to check out these links:

http://www.hobbytool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=29

http://www.hobbytool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=30

I think 1/4" would be closest.



 

[Geeto67]

i think we can say that the bike may in fact be stolen contrary to what the title of this thread says 

oh man. 

I think you might be making too big a deal of this. If it was stolen and the numbers removed  I don't see how it can be traced to you. In fact I don't think you can positivley say one way or the other how numbers got removed if they were ever there in the first place. Chances are if it was stolen it happend a long long time ago by the looks of the condition of the bike.

Do the numbers on your title match your engine vin? One reason for why there might have been a previous title conversion is the changeover from registering bikes by engine vin to registering by frame vin.

At this point, if you own the die set for stamping, and you know what the numbers should look like and where they go, then if the frame checks out as a 1977, just stamp the frame and get over it.

[754]

Yeah ..like stamping numbers in a frame with non matching stamps freehand. is a really neat thing to be caught with!!

Up here you can get a number ASSIGNED and stamp it in, but a private individual can not just go out and do it.


Try stamping all them numbers on a piece of metal freehand or any method, then look at the result and show us how straight you can get it.

[Kevin400F]

If I was going to stamp something and I wanted the numbers to come out nice and even, I would lay out the letters & numbers in the exact factory-style spacing and alignment on the object to be stamped using a fine-line permanent marker.  Then, visually line up the metal stamp over the drawn-on letter and give it a pretty firm whack.  If you're happy with the placement, set the stamp back into the first light impression, and hit it until you're happy with the depth.  Move on to the next one. 

[possum2082]

i bought a metal 1/4" stamp set from harbor freight (btw, if you bring in a print out of their online prices, they match it), but chickened out.  i've decided against it, especially after using the wire wheel to check for a paint covered vin.

i'm thinking about phoning the dmv and asking them a "hypothetical" question.  i don't want to take it downtown yet because, from what i understand, there's a pretty good chance of confiscating my bike and me losing my $200.  my bigger problem is that the bike would sit in storage and then probably get scrapped.

just got her running pretty well, too.  i guess i did learn some stuff.  anybody got a frame with a title? 

[DarkRider]

Cheer up man...this gives you an excuse to build yourself a nice lil cafe project..get yourself a new frame, clean it up and paint it..add either stock or cafe body work after ripping the drivetrain and suspension from this bike.

[Terry in Australia]

i'm thinking about phoning the dmv and asking them a "hypothetical" question. 

I'd be calling from a public phone booth two states over with a rolled up sock in my mouth to disguise my voice if I was you mate, I've just watched Mel Gibson in "Conspiracy Theory" and I'm pretty sure they're on to you! 

[TwoTired]

Philosophically speaking, if the bike you have is indeed stolen, why would you continue to deprive the rightful owner of his property?  Just wondering.

Anyway...
If you did not get a bill of sale with the bike or at least verify the vin numbers paper to machine before taking possession, technically, you blew it!  Because, if the bike is hot and in your possession and you are caught, you will be the thief in the eyes of the law, unless you can point specifically to the person who sold it to you.  A bill of sale goes a long way to shifting responsibility.  Although, you may be in possession of stolen property, you can rightfully proclaim you did not steal it.  You lose the property, but avoid prosecution.

Stamped steel has a higher density/hardness where the numbers were stamped.  There are polishing techniques that bring this difference into visible acuity.  Soft metal is easier to polish than hard metal.  This difference is one method of serial number recovery.  There are others.

So, either the bike is stolen or there is some other reasonable legit reason that the bike's numbers are not there. 

If it is stolen, you have to decide whether you wish to be part and parcel to the theft.  You can continue to hide and obscure the bike or it's parts in order to profit or negate your loss in the ill-advised transaction.
If your primary goal is to minimize any monetary loss.  You could strip the frame bare of parts, then truck it and perhaps the motor down to DMV to let them decide what should be done.  This would go much smoother if you have a signed bill of sale.  The worst they would do is confiscate the frame. (you said that the clean title you have has the proper engine numbers, so ownership of that should not be in dispute.)  They may be able to recover the real identity of the bike, and if not stolen issue a number to complete the registration.  They may decide it isn't valuable enough to bother and simply have another means to work around legally titling the bike.
I expect the recent scrubbing by you of the VIN area will make it difficult to remain credible of your non-complicity.
If you lose the frame, then you still have the parts to sell or assemble onto another frame, if your conscience allows you to proceed that way.  However, if Karma has any credence, someday in the future someone will be riding around on a bike made up of parts that used to be your motorcycle.

If it is not stolen, DMV will advise what the proper procedure to reinstate the bike is, with the result that you will own the bike legally or properly.

Good luck

[White Nightmare]

This may be a long shot and may not work were you are located but here it goes anyway. Call up the DMV and tell them that you are interested in a bike that is for sale but you want to check to see if its stolen or not. In most cases the DMV can check it right over the phone. If it is then it looks like your screwed. If its not then it will be a little easier. Hopefully your state works like CA does and lets vehicles "fall" out of the DMV system after 7 years of non registration.

If that is the case with your state and this particular bike then they should tell you right over the phone if there is no record of it. Here in CA I have known numerous people that have purchased cars or bikes that have fallen out of the system. All they did was make a fake bill of sale. The DMV has no record of ownership or if its stolen or anything. If it had fallen out of the system they cant prove that it isn't stolen or who owned it cause they really don't know. Hopefully this info is helpful. Best of luck.

-Chris

[Kevin400F]

Basically, it boils down to whether or not this particular frame was stolen, and you need to recover the obliterated VIN number in order to check it out. 

Here are a couple of references on the on the techniques to "raise" ground-off serial numbers using acid solution:

http://www.dfs.virginia.gov/services/firearmsAndToolmarks/manuals/procedures/13%20-%20Section%209%20SERIAL%20NUMBER%20RESTORATIONS.pdf

http://www.chevy-camaro.com/faq/chevy-camaro-engine-code-restoration.shtm

[Terry in Australia]

Hmmmnnnn, that's interesting, maybe you could do the "acid test" on your frame and see if anything comes up? My cousin (a bike mechanic) told me about a guy who was "rebirthing" stolen bikes, i.e., he'd buy a wreck at an auction and steal a similar model and rather than chop the steering head off one bike and weld it on another he'd restamp the steering head and attach the VIN plate off the wreck.

Before he restamped the steering head though, he'd use a 4 inch angle grinder with a cut off wheel to cut through the old number, then use a MIG welder to fill the cut, grind/sand it smooth, then heat the metal up to a "dull cherry red" with an oxy/acetylene torch and stamp it while it was still hot, which looked a lot more "factory original" than trying to stamp it cold.

How did he get caught? He sold a Kawasaki Z1 that had been totally wrecked in an accident back to the original owner. The poor guy wanted a bike that looked just like the one he'd wrecked, and when he saw this one advertised in "Just Bikes" photo magazine he went out to have a look, and by chance checked the engine number and recognized it right away. He did the "I'll think about it and get back to you" and immediately reported it to the cops, and when they went around there, they found other wrecked frames, stolen engine cases, etc etc behind his gargage, and he was out of business! Cheers, Terry.  

[Geeto67]

or you could just take everything off the bike and throw the frame away....avoid further hassles....

[possum2082]

here's the story as it was told to me:

bike was owned by someone's gpa; he died.  grandson got it.  grandson sold it to guy i bought it from. 

okay, definitely don't want to aid the motorcycle stealing industry.  however, the sate of ky will most likely take the bike and either junk it or store it indefinitely.  this will not help me or the "real" owner.  also, don't know 100% that this is stolen.  i'm not trading in my khakis for stripes just yet.

i'm leaving for red river gorge in a few for some climbing and hiking.  be back tom.  i'll research the acid test a little more when i get back.  i happen to be a high school chemistry teacher.  convenient.

thanks everyone for their input.

[mgmuellner]

here's the story as it was told to me:

bike was owned by someone's gpa; he died.  grandson got it.  grandson sold it to guy i bought it from. 

okay, definitely don't want to aid the motorcycle stealing industry.  however, the sate of ky will most likely take the bike and either junk it or store it indefinitely.  this will not help me or the "real" owner.  also, don't know 100% that this is stolen.  i'm not trading in my khakis for stripes just yet.

i'm leaving for red river gorge in a few for some climbing and hiking.  be back tom.  i'll research the acid test a little more when i get back.  i happen to be a high school chemistry teacher.  convenient.

thanks everyone for their input.

Easy fix - get the gransons name, give him a call & have him validate the story.  Get a VIN history & validate.  Then get the PO to write you a bill of sale.