Topic: What kind of Helmets do you guys like?

[andy750]

I have to admit I was skeptical about claims that open face were as safe as full-face helmets and so after a quick search found this excellent research article published in June 2007. It details methods of testing both types of helmets, reviews past data on the topic and field tests both types of helmets. Conclusions:(jump to page 49 for conclusions).

Report - http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2007/Grant_Report200703.aspx

Read the PDF.

1. Full face helmets do not lead to more spinal cord injuries compared with wearing an open face - there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest this - this report found there was no basis for this.

2. Wearing a full face offers more protection than an open face -not true - look at the method of testing in this report and the recorded palces of injury in motorcycle crashes and this verifies their conclusion. (however, personally speaking I would not want to take the chance based on stats when flying head first into a car windshield when blind-sided while riding around town)

3. Helmets will offer different safety advantages bases on the profile and geometry of the wearer! So get a helmet that fits well!(and kind)


And here is my own conclusions.....

1. Motorcycling whether its around town or blasting around the countryside or long distance riding has a certain level of danger. Wearing a full face helmet according to some spinal cord injury specialists may increase your risk of spinal cord trauma and paralysis because the chin protection may pop your head back thus breaking your neck. Notice I said "may". If wearing an open face helmet you may smash your face in and have your jaw wired....but which is better? Jaw wired versus spinal cord injury? Its not as simple as that and there are plenty of variables. Basically the conclusion is - its better to wear a helmet (any kind) than none at all. That is fairly obvious to most Im sure. At the end of the day get a helmet that fits and be careful (as much as you can) when riding.

And I would recommend reading this report.....very interesting!

cheers
Andy

[medic09]

Honestly, I'm in no position to argue with a dentist.  Since I'm at work just now, ironically I can't access the study I'm thinking of...BUT most of the fatalities that occured due to head injuries in helmeted riders in the US involved frontal (facial) fractures as well.  To my mind that translates as a full face helmet may be better than an open face.

OTOH, removing a full face helmet from a downed rider is very difficult and time consuming.  EMS services do not travel around with some special or suitable tool for cutting it off. It takes 2-4 people to work that helmet off, and it is not possible to genuinely maintain spinal alignment just so while doing it. Airway management with a full face helmet still on the patient is impossible.  Proper C-spine alignment and immobilization with a helmet still on is impossible.

I wear a full face.  I ride with the visor up until about 60 mph, because I don't actually like a full face.  I wear it because I believe it is the better protection.  Clear visor, prescription glasses or sunglasses inside.

OTOH, all our aircraft helmets are open face.

On a comfort note, wind noise is WAY LESS in a good full face.

There have been threads on this topic before.  Check them out.

'nuff random ramblings.  Back to work...

[medic09]

Andy posted the same time I did.  I'll have to look at that study.  Some of the conclusions don't seem to match with what I recall from some published American studies.  Worth checking into.

I do see in the abstract that 70% of the investigated deaths were wearing full face.  Is that only because they've become more popular, or maybe the the majority were sport bikers who favor them (and high speeds?)?

I also note that nearly half of the impacts involved facial impact,  with many to the chin.  This bears slow, thoughtful reading to draw any applicable conclusions.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

I'm with Medic on this one. He's seen them and I've been one.

This is my full face after my head on collision with a ford van. Hit the windshield with my helmeted face and landed on my forehead after a short 50' flight. No spinal cord injury AND no broken facial parts. I gotta say that every accident is different so no 2 outcomes will be the same except the outcome of death. What would have happened without ANY helmet or an open face helmet? Injury or death would have occurred without a doubt!   

[333]

I got to this thread late and didn't read it all, so my apologies if I repeat anything.

TRUE peripheral vision is not obscured at all on any helmet.  Looking straight ahead, you will never see helmet to the side.Looking to the side you might see helmet.  The same will be true of 3/4 helmets.  1/2 shells are the only way to not see helmet.  But the question really is; do you want to give up safety just so you don't have to turn your head a little more?

And tinted shield is a bad idea, unless you only ride in daylight, or carry a clear one with you.  In some states it's illegal to use one at night.  Sunglasses are the way to go.  That will also allow you to have the shield open while giving some eye protection(from the wind) also which some states require.  I carry clear glasses for night riding.

I look at it this way.  If you grind your chin off, where will your wife or girlfriend sit?

[Fuzzball]

If you grind your chin off, where will your wife or girlfriend sit?
   

Touche. This could be the most compelling argument of all.

[hopterfixer]

I guess I think more along the lines of low/slow speed accident protection, like me face scraping along pavement or smacking in to a windshield.  I feel comfortable in mine, that is why I don't feel comfortable riding with out it.  Working in EMS myself, almost all of the patients we fly from motorcycle accidents were not wearing helmets at all.  I wear the gear in my avatar from freezing to 100 degrees F because that is how I roll   

[mark]

To answer the original question....... I like those Viking helmets... ya know... with the horns on 'em... 

Not very practical for riding, though.

This one here handles my riding and racing needs.


Clear visor and photogray glasses.

Avoid amber lenses/shield when racing - they can make the white flag look yellow.


Happy trails.

[754]

Helmet laws have always been a sore spot for me, right next to media reoprts on usage.

Like when a kid get cliped on the sidewalk by a car turning into schoolyard. doing mabe 10 -15 mph and they go on about how luckily they were wearing helmet and avoided injury!. Which may or may not have happened without the helmet..IMO..

Like my buddy witnessed a guy flip off a moped at 20  mph in front of my shop. He landed in a near sitting position till the heels caught and then went over violently into a faceplant..so hard that the feet came about 2 feet of the ground!.. Helmetless..

So what do you think happened then??..injury wise?? It was the typical scenario where the media would say the helmet let them escape serious injury..

Well they did not.. cut under lip from glasses and banged up knee.. go figure.. it really hard to say what will happen in an accident..

[medic09]

Personally and professionally, I advocate making the decision re: whether to wear a helmet based on the best, most scientific evidence available, not isolated anecdotes.  Of course, there are no controlled, causative studies.  No institutional ethics review board will approve a study that launches live people into injury without helmets as a control group.  Having said that, the retrospective studies available shed some light on the topic, as well as some of the testing being done.  I think the evidence overwhelmingly supports wearing a helmet.  In some ways this reminds me of the arguments about wearing a helmet in combat operatons.  We used to have all sorts of specious reasons for not wearing a helmet.  Nowadays, we simply no better.

As for what configuration of helmet, I haven't looked real thoroughly but there seems to be a little less evidence.  What evidence there is (again, retrospective review studies and testing on models) leads me to prefer full face helmets.  Ultimately, any well-made helmet is better than no helmet.  If you simply refuse to wear a full face, don't buy one.  Buy the open face that you're willing to wear.  I still consider buying an open face at least for the summertime.  I don't know that modular helmets are the equal of full face for protection, but I don't know that they aren't.  The only test comparison that I've read leads me to think that they are pretty comparable.  And they sure are convenient.  Maybe that will be my next helmet.  How do they compare in weight, anyone know?

As to what helmet I like.  My wife and I both have Shoei RF1000s.  We bought them because we both wanted full face protection, and these just fit the best for each of us.  I almost bought a Nolan, but the Shoei just fit a little better.  Same for the Arai.

[DarkRider]

Modulars seem a little heavier compared to a standard full face. At least so i have noticed compared to wearing my Bell over the new Zeus when i tried it on.

[Terry in Australia]

And as wonderful as full face helmets no doubt are, there's no guarantee that they'll save your life. On December the 7th, a work-mate of mine lost his 21 year old son in a motorcycle crash.

He was wearing a quality full face helmet, (Arai) jacket, gloves, boots etc, and was returning from a late shift (he was working as a security guard) when he apparently fell asleep and went off the road, into a tree. No other vehicles were involved, and there were no skidmarks.

I know that his gear was good, because I helped his dad pick them out for him when he bought him the bike.

He had no other broken bones, just massive head trauma. They kept him on life support for a couple of days so they could remove some organs (he was an organ donor) and then they switched the machines off, and buried him 12 days before Christmas.

After 38 years riding motorcycles and losing quite a lot of friends in crashes, I think I've become a "fatalist", i.e., I firmly believe that if your time is up, then your time is up. I'm not advocating not having the best possible safety gear, but never assume that just because you've got it, it's gonna save you. Cheers, Terry.    

[Ichiban 4]

Well..

It certainly seems like everyone has their own opinion and preferences on this subject.  Honestly..this is my last post on this subject.

I appreciate seeing the Aussie stats on actual injuries.  Doesn't change my own opinions much from what I originally posted. But as they say..better safe than sorry..if you're concerned about which type of helmet to wear.

@ 63 though..I know I will not be intentionally placing myself in high risk situations (some of the guys I rode with last fall thought I was being a bit "grandfatherly"..I guess).  I'm into riding anymore for enjoyment..taking in scenery.  Mainly left the testosterone/adrenelin rush years ago..and after experiencing what Honda terms "dumb hurts"..numerous times.

O genkki de!

[my78k]

I have always worn full face helmets (may have something to do with my age? at 32 I have grown up with full face helmets for all types of riding). I do not feel they obstruct my view at all. This is likely a matter of perception however as I know nothing else (I have ridden once or twice in an open face and hated it!).

I find it is sort of like my seatbelt now...It feels really weird NOT to wear it. I have become so acustomed to it that if I am not wearing a belt I feel very uneasy. Muscle memory has it down to the point where I find myself putting it on to drive down the 1000 foot gravel driveway at the cottage when putting the garbage out! Obviously I don't need it but it has become such a habit that I usually don't even realize I have it on until I go to get out of the car!

As for tinted visors or sunglasses...well I'll chosse sunglasses for a couple of reasons: First I don't have to change out and/or carry a spare visor. And most importantly I keep them with me even at night. Reason being is when I stop to grab a coffee or pay for gas or whatever I put them on to maintain my night vision...it takes about 20 minutes to truly get your night vision back and I don't want to run the risk of missing that racoon in the ditch waiting to run out in from of me at 70mph....

Dennis

[heffay]

full face.

^that was followed up w/ a period, btw.

if you have problems w/ peripheral vision you're either wearing the wrong helmet or not turning your head. 
arai full face all the way for me.

500 bucks aint nuthin' if you're dead.
i'd rather #$%* about the 500 than not be able to.

you wanna know what happens when you're wearing a half helmet and go down?  your chin hits the ground or some other hard surface, and your jawbone severs your spinal column... one of the leading causes of death w/ motorcycle crashes and no full helmet.

[andy750]

you wanna know what happens when you're wearing a half helmet and go down?  your chin hits the ground or some other hard surface, and your jawbone severs your spinal column... one of the leading causes of death w/ motorcycle crashes and no full helmet.

Heffay,
Do you have data to back this up? Ive been trying to find some conclusive studies  -see my earlier post citing a recent comprehensive Australian study showing no evidence of your claim (i.e. no statistical difference for safety for Full versus Open face). Im not trying to pick a fight here BTW just looking to get some real facts as I would have thought that open face were also more dangerous....but so far no definitive proof on that. Thanks in advance.

cheers
Andy

[heffay]

you know those australians! 

empirical evidence?  what's that?   

now... where was it?  let me get back to you...

[heffay]

here's one... it doesn't say, full face better half bucket not better, it just states where the most damage is done per crash on each helmet and/or face.

http://jeff.dean.home.att.net/swisher.htm

this debate seems obvious to me... anyone else?

i'll look for more andy...

[andy750]

No dont waste too much of your time Heffay...the article posted is interesting in itself - i..e where is the most common point of impact.

cheers!
Andy

[heffay]

i don't consider it a waste of time at all !   

i excerpted this from http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/motorcycle_helmet_guide/index.html ...


5. Coverage

Full-coverage helmets, such as this Arai, offer maximum protection and other advantages, such as integrated eye protection.

This is definitely a case of more being better. A full-coverage open-face helmet offers better coverage than a shorty (or half helmet) and a full-face helmet (i.e., one with a chinbar) provides more protection than an open-face style.

A recent study (January 2003 issue of "Annals of Emergency Medicine") found that motorcyclists with facial injuries are 3.5 times more likely to have a brain injury and those with facial fractures are 6.5 times more likely to have such injuries than those without facial damage. The study, conducted at the UCLA School of Public Health in Los Angeles, California with Dr. Jess Kraus as lead author looked at 5790 motorcyclists injured in crashes and reported that one in four had facial injuries with 411 sustaining facial fractures. It makes a strong case for getting the most possible coverage from your helmet.

Look for a helmet that provides not only more shell coverage but also more coverage from the EPS liner (the hard Styrofoam-type foam) inside, since it's the EPS that actually absorbs the energy of an impact. Some helmets just cover the minimum mandated area with EPS. Others line the entire shell with it. The EPS should extend to the chinbar if the helmet has one.

Somewhere between the full-coverage helmets and the open-face helmets are those with flip-up facial sections, called "modular," "system" and flip-face helmets, which offer advantages of both kinds. We tested seven modular helmets for the April 2003 issue of Motorcycle Cruiser.

Does facial coverage make any difference? Consider going jaw-first into the back of a car, and remember where your jawbone will end up if it gets pushed up into your head.

[Fuzzball]

In addition to Heff's fine research, let's consider, the chosen, no---- mandated, headgear of, for example, GP racers. One may say they cover their heads with, shall we say a kind of EXPECTATION of crashing, not a fond hope that they don't. And further, if, in some logic-defying fashion open face helmets were somehow safer than full face, would they not be wearing them instead?

As I said, if you wear less than a full face helmet you are either feeling lucky or have priorities higher than safety.

[andy750]

Thats exactly what I was after -thanks!

I know its often "common sense" but a dose of hard facts dosent hurt either.

cheers
Andy

[heffay]

good... i feel less "on the spot" 

i may have misspoke about the "leading cause of death" remark... was the way i remembered it.  sorry   

tis why you can't believe everything you read, hear or watch on "tv"... but, since "tv" has gone "reality"... things are all jumbled and facts become fiction and vice versa.  before long... we're left wondering if its all a big show that we are the star of... oh wait, that's been done too. 

[cbass*gxc]

Thinking about getting this helmet.  I like wearing shorties but I think I would rather have more protection plus the whole front on this one flips up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190185031531&rd=1

[heffay]

wow!  i've never seen a modern looking modular helmet.  i dig it, thanks for the "heads-up"... pun intended