Topic: 400 Four carb rebuild - questions.. questions..

[mercury66]

Hi, I,ve been stripping down a 400 Four carb rack and notice the following small parts are all bent (see photo)
Anyone any idea what would cause this - I'm assuming they're not meant to be bent!

Also, where can I get four new parts to replace the bent ones, anyone know?

While I'm at it - is it possible to get carb gaskets in the UK without buying the whole carb rebuild kits?

Ta, Ewan

[paulages]

they are meant to be bent. they keep the nuts from spinning off. the rear sprocket nuts usually have the same type washers as well.

[mercury66]

ah.. thanks - my naivity on this project knows no bounds!

[paulages]

ah.. thanks - my naivity on this project knows no bounds!

building from a bucket of parts aint easy! good thing you have this board, huh?

[mercury66]

Yes indeedy, I'm going to need lotsa help
I'm thinking I'm going to enjoy the rebuild too, which is just as well as I'm hoping it'll be the first of a few.

How is the BSA project coming along?

[paulages]

Yes indeedy, I'm going to need lotsa help
I'm thinking I'm going to enjoy the rebuild too, which is just as well as I'm hoping it'll be the first of a few.

How is the BSA project coming along?

it's not doing much bit sitting in the corner waiting for forks, wheels, and most everything bit the frame engine and headers. i am trading a '76 cb750 i bought for $200 on thursday for a '71 triumph T-120.  it's fully disassembled, but hell- that saves me the trouble of tearing it down for proper restoration. 

[mca2]

[...]
While I'm at it - is it possible to get carb gaskets in the UK without buying the whole carb rebuild kits?

Ta, Ewan

Well, not exactly the UK, but here in the NL you can buy a complete gasket kit for four carbs for about 11GPD (15euro), see www.honda4.nl -> "nieuw site" -> Benzine/carbs. Rene is a friendly guy and I assume he can also ship to the UK.

You can also try www.cmsnl.nl. But maybe you can ask David Silver for a set with gaskets only?

[.RJ]

While I'm at it - is it possible to get carb gaskets in the UK without buying the whole carb rebuild kits?

David silver spares sells the honda rebuild kit, which is just gaskets and o-rings - no jets.  You should be able to re-use the jets.

[mercury66]

Many thanks people

In the end I seemed to have some bits missing so I went for a Keyster rebuild kit after all. £32.78 ($64.98) including postage from eBay, which seemed ok. (I'm actually mad enough to try and keep a track of how much dosh I spend on this rebuild - could be scary!)
   
www.honda4.nl looks excellent - many thanks mca2. I can see many other parts I need there and on David  Silver Spares site also.

[mercury66]

i am trading a '76 cb750 i bought for $200 on thursday for a '71 triumph T-120.  it's fully disassembled, but hell- that saves me the trouble of tearing it down for proper restoration. 

Droooooool my limited bike brain is thinking Bonneville and 650(?). When I think Triumph I get bike chase in Coogan's Bluff.. way too cool.

[mercury66]

I've scoured the forum and gotten a lot of info, don't want to waste anyones time, but still have a couple of questions.

Looking at the float bowls, how do I remove the gasket? Is this a job for a gasket removal product or..
Also do I need to remove the tube - seen in the photo and how do I get the large outside screw off (safe to use impact driver?)

Cleaning the bowls wise I've gotten bulk of muck off with white spirit, then washed in soapy water and dried thoroughly. Now looking at removing some surface rust/ marking on outside with Autosol and polishing. However the actual carburettor itself I wash in a chemical cleaner, if yes can anyone recommend a brand to buy, safe on 400 Four carbs, in UK?

Sorry.. I know I'm a pain

[paulages]

I've scoured the forum and gotten a lot of info, don't want to waste anyones time, but still have a couple of questions.

Looking at the float bowls, how do I remove the gasket? Is this a job for a gasket removal product or..
Also do I need to remove the tube - seen in the photo and how do I get the large outside screw off (safe to use impact driver?)

Cleaning the bowls wise I've gotten bulk of muck off with white spirit, then washed in soapy water and dried thoroughly. Now looking at removing some surface rust/ marking on outside with Autosol and polishing. However the actual carburettor itself I wash in a chemical cleaner, if yes can anyone recommend a brand to buy, safe on 400 Four carbs, in UK?

Sorry.. I know I'm a pain

the o-ring gasket will come out easily with a little screwdriver or pick, pried underneath it in the groove. berryman's carb dip or something comparable works great (sold at auto supplies in 1 or 5 gallon buckets), but is seriously nasty #$%*. after removing it from this stuff, you should rinse with hot water (so it will evaporate quickly) and blow through all passageways with compressed air.

[malcolmgb]

I stripped my carbs and left them soaking for a few days in an aluminium foil food container filled up with 'Gunk' if not fully immersed just turn them over daily, this worked for me. The brass tube is the overflow and should be left in. By "the large screw" I assume you mean the float bowl drain, the impact driver doesn't sound a good idea to me, refit the float bowl to give support and use the largest screwdriver to fit the slot, probably best to get someone to support the carb on a bench while you unscrew using grips on the screwdriver blade if necessary.

[mercury66]

Hello, thanks for the advice 

Is this the right type of gunk? See piccy.

> Yes float bowl drain screw is one I want to remove - if only because I'd like to replace. It's gotten pretty mashed at sometime in its past.

[Bodi]

The carb drain screws are near impossible to find: occasionally they appear on ebay but never have been available from Honda except as part of the entire float bowl assembly... these can sometimes be found NOS (for well over $100.00 each). The screw, on top of having a weird giant head and holes drilled into it, is an oddball extra fine metric thread... technically available but super hard to find.
Remove the bowl O-ring gasket by picking it out with a needle or something. It's glued in, automotove weatherstrip adhesive works well to attach the new one (don't try to use it without the glue). The ones with Keyster kits fit poorly and expand in gasoline, but can be used. The best ones are in (no surprise) Honda gasket kit #16010-333-004. This also has all the O-rings and the paper top cover gasket.
If you can get Berryman's carb dip (or equivalent, there are a few brands of carb dip) this is the best cleaner you will find. Parts left overnight come super clean with a few minutes toothbrush and soapy water work. It STINKS REALLY BAD in a "I'm toxic" way so use it outside. Don't put anything plastic into it as the part will dissolve.

[malcolmgb]

Hello, thanks for the advice 

Is this the right type of gunk? See piccy.

> Yes float bowl drain screw is one I want to remove - if only because I'd like to replace. It's gotten pretty mashed at sometime in its past.

yes that is the Gunk I used.

Bodi - over here in the UK we struggle to find any sort of carb dip, that Berryman's sounds great, I would be tempted on my next trip over to the US to find some but then trying to get it back here may be difficult, the airlines, US customs and my wife (if it leaked in a suitcase) might object to carrying chemicals.

[mercury66]

Hi,

Thanks Bodi, malcolmgb - plenty to think about!
Trivial matter I know, but I'm thinking I should sell on my un-opened keyster kit and buy Honda gaskets? Or am I reading far too much into this 

Think I may have found modern re-issues of the float bowl screws though - the joys of eBay! Very pricy tho.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280186752245&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us

Ewan

[malcolmgb]

Think I may have found modern re-issues of the float bowl screws though - the joys of eBay! Very pricey tho.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280186752245&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us

Ewan

interesting find there Ewan, equivalent to £2.50 approx each plus shipping not too bad is it?

[Bodi]

I just came across those screws too, looking for something else. I may get a set myself!
The seller also has a website, www.siriusconinc.com and this shows the available carb stuff. Some things on ebay aren't there though, don't know why. Sirius Consolidated is located in Waterloo, Canada (about 1.5 hours from me) and they have a buffalo address for US shipping. They are also a Motovan dealer apparently (large Canadian motorsports aftermarket distributor) and most of the non-carb stuff on the website is from the Motovan catalogs.

[mercury66]

Hello,

Going to be a bit off my original topic - still up to my elbows in gunk! But on the subject of bolts, found a company in UK; Inox, which offer a complete set of stainless steel bolts for the whole bike.. seeing I'm starting from a number of buckets of parts as it were would buying a whole set be prudent? Anybody done anything similar or bought bolts and fasteners from this company? http://www.inoxgrp.co.uk/homepage.htm

> I've attached their brochure & price list below..

My thinking is I'm probably going to want to replace bolts on each bit of the bike as I tackle it so this might be cheaper than buying say an individual carb set, then engine set etc.

I think this is more an outporing of what is in my head than a post with a question!

E

[malcolmgb]

personally that sounds like an expensive move, are you doing a concours or just a tidy rebuild?

I built mine from boxes of parts too, luckily there was nothing missing, I did replace a few bolts which were clearly not oem, old bolts were cleaned on a rotary wire wheel.
The engine side cases have hex socket head screws, be aware that stainless is unforgiving to worn/weak aluminium threads.
Another point to watch is the lower front engine mounting bolt needs to be the correct length, if too long it can push through into a main oil gallery and wreck the engine.

[mercury66]

Thanks for the info Macolmgb - I was coming round to thinking it was a bit pricey myself.
There is so much stuff out there tho, so many goodies, it is easy to get carried away.

It's a rebuild, not concours. As many original bits as possible with some period after market parts if I can find them and a non-spec paint job. A number of the parts I have are likely (or obviously) past it. I've got them bagged but haven't done the sums yet.

re bolt length and threads - I need to collect all this info for future reference lol
Maybe - like other folks - I should just have a single thread about the rebuild then I'd know where everything was!

[malcolmgb]

re bolt length and threads - I need to collect all this info for future reference lol

most bolt sizes/lengths can be found in the parts manual, the only ones not shown are usually special bolts.

[Bodi]

Using allen head screws on the side covers is great, the phillips heads don't survive many removals. I carry an impact driver in the tool tray too as my screwdriver, but the allen heads have not failed me. If you can get button head allen screws for the carb bowls, you can remove them with the carbs mounted. This is pretty much impossible with the phillips head screws. If you have enough manua dexterity this allows jet changes without pulling the carb bank out: tuning is somewhat easier as you only have to take them out to change the needle height.

[mercury66]

Sounds interesting Bodi, what is 'button' head - sorry if I'm being dumb!
Are the bolts you use similar to these (its a french page with an English bit further down): http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190029361242&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
This company do 3 sets of bolts; carb, crankcase, engine cover for reasonable cost.

I'll give cleaning up the original bolts a go too, though I think some of them are likely a bit past their best having been removed a number of times before!

[Bodi]

These are them. The head diameter for a given thread is larger than cap screws, so they are more like the original screws than cap the screws are.

[tortelvis]

Happich Simichrome is the biz! I personally don't rate Autosol, it'll shine good chrome but that's it. Simichrome will polish any metal, try it on an old crankcase and see the results. Just a little dab and your cloth will come away jet black, it really does the job.

[colb]

Gunk is all well and good but you can get bfantastic results from popping them into the dishwasher when the wife is out, give them a good rinse when out of the dishwasher to get rid of any salt, dry off blow through with airline and start your rebuild.

Colin

[mercury66]

Hi,

Simichrome Polish sounds the biz, I can get from a UK distributer so may well give it a go. (I'm in Scotland)

Carb screw wise I've pretty much got them all off, two casualties so far, one float drain screw which is just a bit unsightly and one totally mangled philips screw. I ended up getting it off with a combination of hack saw blade, cold chisel and impact driver! All damage limited to screw head though. Probably due in part to my newbie technique, but hey, I gotta learn. Preferably without any damage to something major. Impact driver tho - what a tool!
Also got my first metal skelf..

Will have a look around for button head screws - most of the stainless screws I've seen so far are the 'cylinder type'.
colb - I don't have a dish washer! Or a wife come to think of it 

[malcolmgb]

Also got my first metal skelf..

had to Google that one, we call it a splinter down here in England  not sure what our US friends will make of it