Author Topic: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.  (Read 3822 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« on: December 31, 2007, 06:22:22 pm »
Converting the CB750K6-7-8-"F" Swingarm to an Earlier Design.

In 2007, Honda discontinued the swingarm's "Collar" for the CB750K6 through K8 and all "F" SOHC versions. Without this part, rebuilding the swingarm becomes a hit-or-miss proposition, as new bushings on an old "collar" (aka "pivot shaft") will not yield the necessary small clearance of .0008" to .0012" required. Your options are narrowed to a cleanup of the old, worn "collar" and new, custom-sized bushings, provided the "collar" diameter is still greater than 0.830" after the cleanup work is done.

A more robust option is to convert this subsystem to the earlier version found in the CB750K0-K5, CB500/550, and many other Honda models of the time. This version's "collar" is still available from Honda because it fits many other bikes, as well.

By the mid-1970s, Honda was facing stiff competition from the other Japanese 4-cylinder "me too" bikes that followed the CB750K. Profit margins were slim, and riders were trading their bikes in earlier than Honda had first thought they would, so this subsystem was changed from 7 precision parts to 2 similar parts. Lost in this change was the independent end caps and the grease seals, along with reduction from an expensive (but effective) gun-drilled pivot bolt with 2 grease zerks to a single fitting located in the center of the arm itself. This latter change was responsible for most of the loss of lube to the bushings, the rest being that no provision for the grease to reach the outer half of the bushings was even provided.

The differences between the cheapened late version and the better early version are:
1. The (expensive) gun-drilled and cross-drilled pivot bolt with 2 grease zerks for effective greasing of the bushings was replaced by a solid bolt with no zerks, and a single zerk was added to the center of the pivot tube on the arm.
2. The pivot "collar" inside the arm's pivot tube, which rides on the bushings, was changed from one with holes that received the grease from the 2-zerk design and grooves to spread that grease along the whole bushing(s), to a lesser "collar" with no grooves or receiving holes at all. The single zerk in the later swingarms was supposed to receive grease and deliver it down the width of the arm to the bushings directly, but delivery to the outside half of each bushing was impossible: a slight depression in the center of the bushing area of this new "collar" would collect the wear debris and quickly create a very effective dam of crud. Unless the rider disassembled the system on a regular basis to clean and hand-regrease this area, it would only last about 15,000 miles before it became impossible to lube, then the outer half of the bushing would readily seize.
3. The bushings were changed from a forgiving (and expensive) zamak material to a phenolic material that required less grease, but absorbed much more water. These phenolic bushings were frequently undersized after the arm's tube distorted a bit wider from riding, causing them to crack soon after replacement. Phenolic also absorbs water readily and holds it, just the opposite of what is needed in this area. The bushings were also changed to be longer parts that included the "top hat" shape of the original independent end caps that aligned the grease seals, and the grease seals were eliminated. Those original seals both kept grease in and water out. Although the longer bushings seemed to promise more wear area, the depression in the "collar" bearing area removed this advantage because it did not contact the bushing at all.

How to improve it:

The simplest approach to changing this subsystem is: get the 2-zerk pivot bolt from an earlier bike, change the "collar" to the #52141-300-000 early version, get some (non-steel) bushings, felt seals, and end caps from the earlier arm, and replace yours with those. This way, your chain guard and other fittings will still fit. This may, however, take quite some elapsed days, depending on your supply of used K0-K5 parts...

The next most effective way is outlined below: you must obtain and modify the afore-mentioned "collar" from a Honda shop, and get the early-style bushings (or bronze bushings, best), seals and end caps, or make your own seals and end caps.

1. The seals are easy: get some felt or wool (.030" to .060" thick) and cut out a pair of 1" diameter discs, then cut a 3/4"-7/8" hole in their centers. That's it.

2. The end caps are almost as easy: using a long screwdriver, tap out the old "top hat" bushings from the opposite ends of the swingarm, so as to not damage the flanges. Don't try to pry them out: they will immediately break. Penetrating oil, applied profusely into the pivot tube (and onto your shoes and floor), will also help slip them out. Clean in gas or kerosene after they are out.

3. Cut the old bushings off so you end up with flanged end caps that measure 0.180" (for .060" felt) to 0.210" (for .030" felt) long. The length of  (the end cap + felt thickness) should be 0.240", so let that number be your guide. (See picture of hacksaw cutting the old bushing on the lathe.) These are brittle parts, so go slowly or they will shatter. If you have a lathe or really big drill, let it rotate the bushing under the saw blade, or use a moto-tool and cutoff wheel.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 06:24:10 pm »
4. Using a moto-tool and a thin grinding (or cutoff) wheel, cross-cut the grease grooves on the "collar" to make 2 new grooves across the ends of the original pair of grooves on each end of the shaft (4 grooves total, see picture). This will improve the spread and feed of grease from the arm's center zerk fitting across the face of the bushing and help fill in the "dropped" grease at the hole in the center of the original grease grooves. Since these shafts are hardened, tapping and setscrewing these holes is a tricky, difficult operation, and any sort of sealant will just wear out in time. Cutting these extra grooves will solve the problem elegantly. Be sure to debur the edges of ALL the grooves with a small file or stone, then clean thoroughly.

(Note: the shaft on the left is the original "F" style shaft, for reference.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:33:09 pm by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 06:25:10 pm »
5. Now, measure the inset of the swingarm's tube where the counterbore for the bushing stops (see picture). Typically, this reaches about 2.080 to 2.150" inside, and this is the limit of the bushing length, overall. Make sure of this value before installing bushings! The typical bushing for the CB750K0-K5 measures 1.675" long. Your stack-up length that goes into this counterbore is (bushing + felt + endcap - .075"), because the "top hat" of the end cap is 0.075" thick. Make sure you have enough depth in the arm for this stack-up!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 06:26:31 pm »
6. Insert the bushings first. You may be able to use the old bushing leftovers as press tools, and you want to press the bushing in to the depth of your (endcap + felt), typically about 0.240". In this set of pictures, this stack-up value was 0.250", so I scribed that depth on an old bushing to use as the press tool, so I knew when to stop. You can use a press or a long allthread rod with nuts, washers, etc., to make your press: do one side at a time, and do it smoothly. Don't hammer or drive them in, or they may become damaged. Grease well!
 
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 06:27:28 pm »
7. Insert and set the felt washers. It will help if you have the "collar" in at this step, to align the washers while you poke them down to their home. A little grease won't hurt things here, either.
NOTE: Your bushings may compress a little as you press them in, making the hole undersized and impossible to fit the "collar" through. If this happens, hone the bushings with a 2-stone Brake Hone until things fit together. If you have measuring tools, this is easy and quick. If not, hone a minute or two, then clean and test fit, repeat until the beer runs out, and finish it tomorrow. DON'T force the "collar" through, as this will damage the bushing(s). You may also find that you can insert the "collar" at each end, but not all the way through: hone the inner ends of the bushings in this case, as your arm is slightly warped (very common, from welding at Honda). A little residual tightness after the "collar" is fully inserted is common, and will wear in within 100 miles. But, if you need more than your fist to push the "collar" thorough, you're not done honing, yet.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 06:28:56 pm »
8. Using the same press-in tool(s) as in step 7, set the endcaps over the "collar" to support the washer. Your finished assembly should look like the picture here, with the "collar" sticking out about .010"-.020" from each end. The "collar" must be longer than the endcaps by a little bit to lock itself against the dust caps in the frame while the arm is free to pivot up & down.

You're done! Looks professional, doesn't it?  ;)

THANKS TO COLINMC for loaning me his whole swingarm for this tutorial!   :D :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:34:17 pm by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline ColinMc

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 10:49:02 am »
Hehe, no problem! I just found this thread today! I'm actually getting my bike sorted out this week mostly...hopefully i'll be able to enjoy the swingarm soon ;)

PS: looking at all the work that went into it...I almost feel bad you didn't charge me more...almost lol.
1976 CB750K - Cafe Project...taking forever
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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 11:27:50 am »
I'll "loan" you my old swingarm if you mail it back, lol.  So bottom line, the twin zerk fitting arm is superior. 
Just call me Timmaaaaay!!!

troppo

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 12:54:14 am »
I love this sort of thing, wouldnt occur to me that an earlier fitting would be better.
Thanks heaps hondaman!!

eldar

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 06:21:12 am »
So the main benefit is just less work? I mean if the area is kept lubed well, there is no real problem is there? I have never used the zirk, I always put it apart and clean it and lube by hand but if I did use the zirk, well old farm methods involve pumping grease in till it comes out both sides!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 08:25:16 pm »
I'll "loan" you my old swingarm if you mail it back, lol.  So bottom line, the twin zerk fitting arm is superior. 

Yep, this is a case where "older design is better". Not too many are!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 08:26:45 pm »
So the main benefit is just less work? I mean if the area is kept lubed well, there is no real problem is there? I have never used the zirk, I always put it apart and clean it and lube by hand but if I did use the zirk, well old farm methods involve pumping grease in till it comes out both sides!

I was raised on a Missouri farm, and that's just how we did it, too. Problem is in this case: the grease simply can't make it to the ends, unless it's REAL thin grease, which then isn't much help, anyway...  :-\
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

eldar

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Re: Help for CB750K6-7-8 & "F" owners: swingarm rebuilding tips.
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2008, 06:21:41 am »
Well thats ok, I never ever did that. Always pulled apart to get the old crud out.
I have not gapped anything but the back end sure seems fine but I will file this away for future reference as it may be come important.