Topic: Honda Davidson?

[550jeff]

Anyone out there know obscure Honda history?  An old friend (old as in possibly senile) swears that in the 1970's when AMF owned Harley, Honda had a share in that ownership.  I don't remember the 70's too well (born in 1974), but if this is true, it'll give me some conversation starters with my Harley riding buddies.

[Bob Wessner]

I picked up my 750 used in the mid-seventies and I don't recall anything like this. It seems unlikely when you read through this;

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID7624?mid=2003090256648&mime=asc

[550jeff]

Sounded a little to far out to be true, but you never know, old guys are known to be right once in awhile.  I still have plenty of things to say to them, anyway.  Like "Need help pushing that?", "I can ride home and get my trailer if you like", etc. 

[jsaab2748]

I'm not an expert by any means, but the claim that Honda owned interest in Harley seems way out there, based on what I've read. If anyone's interested in the history of the Honda Motor Company, there's a book, called simply, "Honda Motorcycles" by Aaron P. Frank. Available in places like Border's here in the USA, and I'm sure on the net wherever books are sold. EXCELLENT READING if you ever get the chance. Racing history, model evolution, colorful pics (many), all kinds of behind the scenes stuff, and lots about Mr. Honda himself.

[tat2ken]

I was riding Harley back in the seventies when their biggest competition was from Honda. Harley owned Aermacchi, the italian airplane/motorcycle manufacturer. That is what Harley unsuccessfully used to compete with the smaller Jap bikes. I own a 68 Harley aermacchi Sprint 250 still. Now as far as Honda Davidson goes...my lil 500 is the closest thing I've seen to that with the Fatbob tanks and the Sportster fender and seat !

[Buffo]

My father bought me a used 90cc harley davidson on/off road bike when I was 6 years old in 1981. that was my first motorcycle.  It had little tires...well it was about the size of a minibike. Awesome little thing. It was a harley, It had all the emblems and  everything. I dont remember how many gears it had but it was a standard. But it was MADE in Italy. It said so right on the sticker on the neck. I rode that bike until I was 13. then I got a yz125 for my birthday.

anywho

Don

[Raul CB750K1]

Harley bought Aermacchi in order to build smaller bikes. Harley-Davidsons of the period were nothing more than rebadged Aermacchis. It was a big blunder as they thought there was a market in America for small bikes as there was in Europe. When the bikes started to pile up they were happy that the Castiglioni brothers bought it to start Cagiva.

Harley even built a scooter called Breeza. Could you imagine a scooter with the H-D badge? Clearly, that was the time when H-D was struggling to find his place in the global market. Then they found their identity and focused in the mature american market, with the help of Reagan.

Raul

[dusterdude]

why do i get the feeling that some folks here are a bit hostile to ronald reagans helping of harley -davidson.please enlighten me.

[Jonesy]

Former President Reagan was a key figure in the placement of the tariff on imported motorcycles bigger than 750(?)cc. This helped make the prices higher and less attractive than a Harley.

[Raul CB750K1]

Recently the EU has increased the tariffs on steel products, so Harleys are here more expensive than ever. That was a move to counteract high tariffs in the US to european products.

The funny thing is that people is pissed not because of the protectionist measures, but because George doesn't want to sign Kyoto's protocol. The only thing he have to do is sign it and then don't follow it, as everybody else is doing...

[dusterdude]

jonesy,that is true,however i think what he did was necessary and a good thing.for example,if you and i were each selling electric can openers and i dumped a bunch in your country or town(ala walmart) and sold them cheap and i mean real cheap,i would probably run you out of business.thats not called competention thats dirty business.also,not just honda did it all the jap manufactures did it,so in my opinion it was a concerted effort on the jap motorcycle industry to run harley out of business,but i thank god good ole ronny didnt let em.ok,im done postulating.

[TwoTired]

I beleive much of it had to do with Government subsidies to private business.  The US is not (officially) allowed to do this.  However, other countries can do this to stimulate their economy.  This allows foreign companies to sell their product at a loss, and undercut US competition by making them unprofitable.  Tarriffs are the only legal way to attempt to balance this trade attack.
The US failed to react to this type of attack during the computer memory chip wars.  Asian manufacturers were heavily subsidized by their governments and dumped large volumes of computer memory chips onto the American market.  This market was previously dominated by US chip foundries who could no longer make a profit.  Their business failed, and their products weren't available on the market anymore.  The Asian market became sole suppliers of memory chips.  They then >decreased< production,  (like OPEC does with oil) causing a memory chip "shortage" for US computer makers.  Memory chip prices soared. US consumers paid for high asian profit margins. And foreign business tax revenue increases repayed all the subsidies, and insured their manufacturing and export profits for years to come as these chips are no longer made in the US.  A tariff on imported memory chips at the right time, would have kept the memory chip foundries and the related industry and economy alive in the US by keeping them profitable.
I'm pretty sure Harley-Davidson would have failed too, were it not for that tariff.  Then nearly all the motorcycle business economy would belong to foreign governments as there would be no US competition ar all.

[dusterdude]

very true

[douglascoolgrey]

I'm pretty sure Harley-Davidson would have failed too, were it not for that tariff. Then nearly all the motorcycle business economy would belong to foreign governments as there would be no US competition ar all.

An inferior product and major market miscalculations helped bring about the downfall of HD. Watch what happens with large-sized American pick-up trucks in the next ten years.

Memory chip prices soared. US consumers paid for high asian profit margins. And foreign business tax revenue increases repayed all the subsidies, and insured their manufacturing and export profits for years to come as these chips are no longer made in the US. A tariff on imported memory chips at the right time, would have kept the memory chip foundries and the related industry and economy alive in the US by keeping them profitable.

This theory only works if, for some reason, American companies were somehow prevented from re-opening once the prices began soaring again.

[TwoTired]

Memory chip prices soared. US consumers paid for high asian profit margins. And foreign business tax revenue increases repayed all the subsidies, and insured their manufacturing and export profits for years to come as these chips are no longer made in the US. A tariff on imported memory chips at the right time, would have kept the memory chip foundries and the related industry and economy alive in the US by keeping them profitable.

This theory only works if, for some reason, American companies were somehow prevented from re-opening once the prices began soaring again.

It is NOT a theory. It is history.  It's incredibly costly to start up a chip foundry.  The talent that enabled it's function was laid off and found other work.  There was still nothing in place to prevent foreign subsidy from repeating the very same memory chip glut and undercutting prices again.  Therefore, the projected ROI wasn't there.  Further, since the companies were out of business, there was no R&D to develop next generation faster, denser products for the fast changing computer industry.  If you can't get your money back withing six months of product introduction, and the asian countries would see to that, you run out of venture capital, income revenue, and ongoing operating costs force you into bankruptcy again.  The Washington lobby group and short sighted slow moving policians weren't effective enough to counter the unfair world trade threat.

I won't argue that there wasn't mismanagment at HD.  And, I still think their products are over valued for what they are.   But, the money for that part of the industry is still moving around and working in the US, rather than being exported.

[Raul CB750K1]

The practice of selling under production costs (dumping) exists, but I don't think japanese bike companies did it in the seventies. They came up with a better product manufactured at a lower cost. We all know that british companies lacked innovation and labor unions were very powerful.

The proof is that, 30 years later, the cost of living in Japan is so high that they have raised plants all over the world (specially Eastern Europe) to benefit from low wages. That was one of the reasons that led John Bloor to relaunch Triumph. He saw that japanese companies were creating plants in UK to benefit from the strenght of the yen against the sterling pound. That's when he saw that the UK was in position to manufacture again in a competitive way.

One thing is true: The chinese industry is a big threat. Not only because of dumping, but also because of slave wages their products are so cheap (as well as bad quality) that they are destroying the market. Look what has happened to traditional japanese electronic appliances manufacturers: Toshiba, Sony, Sanyo, Panasonic... The electronic market is led now by korean and chinese brands, so cheap that when the appliances break down it's cheaper to buy a new one than to repair.

Of course, part of the high price of a HD bike is the cost of man labour, as US wages are higher than asian wages. HD has set up his  identity as an american icon and probably ther designs and their plants are the only american thing that remains, because many of their components and most of their apparel is made in Asia. But I don't think that's a bad thing. The world is narrower now, and  something from abroad doesn't neccessarily have to be bad. I don't have prejudices by principle, but experience tells you that japanese is good, korean is second best and chinese is by principle crap. Copied designs and bad quality.

I can't understand why companies like Nike or other sport companies took all their know-how to chinese companies to manufacture at a low price. Now they are producing the very same articles and selling them to the local market cheaper than actual imports. Giving the know-how to chinese companies is like putting the fox to  look after the chicken.


Raul

[jaannaktin]

 

I wish the rest of the country, let alone the rest of the world, was more like the 1200 people on this forum. There would be a lot less people driving around in Honda minivans, drinking Starbucks coffee out of one of their 25 cupholders, leaving their massive development built on vanishing open spaces to their corporate job being outsourced to India.

Somehow we are all guilty of allowing this to persist, but I can't figure out what to do to change it.

Back to the shed to drink my beer and work on my bike.

 

Jaan

[dusterdude]

raul.i understand what you say.i dont have a problem with quality,but the dumping the japanese motorcycle industry did in the early 80`s wasnt anything but criminal.to touch base on something else you said.i think sometime in the next 50 years(and i hope im dead when it happens)the world is going to be in bad shape for giving the chinese all of our technology.when that happens the corporate money hungry fatcats need to be sent to the front lines first.

[Raul CB750K1]

I'll tell you what will happen. Chinese economy will grow in such a way that their standard of living will greatly increase. They will start to covet all that gadgets they have been building for the western world. Labour unions will start to grow like mushrooms, wages will increase and chinese companies will outsource their low skilled tasks to the european world.

Everywhere you go, the most unpleasants tasks are performed by the people with less resources. That's why in the US most of the bricklayers and employees at fast food restaurants are mexicans. We in Spain have south americans and moroccans, and many from east europe. Once Asia have the money, we will maybe have to migrate there.

It could sound like a crazy theory, but I believe money circulates in circles; I spend my money in you and when you gather a lot you start to spend it.

Raul

[Buffo]

The huge mass of the money will always stay with the educated. The workering class has never gotten rich or uplifted by the fruits of their labors. Yes money and all the accomidations that go with it will spread over to the 3ed world, but not to the commoners. only to the few who were already in "power". What ever their power was.
I live on the mexican border and there are hundereds of "american" companies over there. In most ways they hurt the mexican economy. mex had to make certin laws to protect their citzens from the usa companies. They will never move ahead because we wont let them. why would we want to lose our cheap labor? And the labor is the small part. The BIGGEST money saver is the lack of OSHA and governmental regulations. We will do the same in China and have been doing it in Korea for decades now.

Julius Cesaer: "There is nothing new under the sun."

Don