Author Topic: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2  (Read 8054 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2008, 10:36:02 AM »
Are you using spin-on Fram oil filters? (shudder)

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Offline andy750

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2008, 10:53:57 AM »
Good advice USN20 - I will try as you suggest. '

Lloyd  -no they are not the spin on type - the paper filter type.

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline lrutt

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 12:11:25 PM »
firstoff...the oil from is from tank to pump to filter then through the engine right?? if so, no way in hell those fibers are going throug the oil passages in the motor, it would have blown long ago. I'm pretty sure the oil is filtered pre motor lubrication unlike my Norton where it happens post. Thus the reason for the spring and pop off capabilities I thought.

And I don't think the clutch has fiber strands that long and they would not be coming off in a full strand anyhow but in very very small bits as the clutch wears.  So what are the options?? Someone may have come on the idea that something strange may have been introduced to the oil tank at one time, but again, I'm not 100% sure on the oil path and if that is possible to end up in the pan prior to going through the pump. We should all agree this crap could not have passed through the pump and oil passages and still have a functioning engine. How sure are you that the motor had never been apart?
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Offline andy750

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2008, 12:19:41 PM »
....... We should all agree this crap could not have passed through the pump and oil passages and still have a functioning engine. How sure are you that the motor had never been apart?

The motor had been apart. The bottom end was split over a year ago and has been run daily since then - +1000 miles on it since the lower end rebuild (final gear bearing was  shot. Oil has been changed at least twice in that time. I park in a hospital garage every day and so its feasible that someone has come along and introduced something into the oil tank....one theory.

Pan is back on now and new oil has been added so Im not going to pull the oil filter until after a few hundred miles come Spring (6` of snow this morning  ::))  - BUT I will check the oil tank as USN20 suggested and report back with any findings.....just need to shovel in front of the garage first!

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Gavin

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2008, 12:45:47 PM »

Some kind of wool mix?! Blimey!

I never thought I'd see it but I think that just might be part of the original harris-tweed cylinder walls. They used that back before metal was invented, when engines were loomed in cotton mills and pistons were knitted by hand.

It's incredible what you find in old bikes. My oil pan had a few spares in it, some of which I swear were from another bike!  ;D

Looks like you've got a nice mix there. Given the fact that it's not a new lump, the shavings could well be from a part (bearing, shell, anything) that's either failing, or is now bedded into a new way of working. The fibres are an interesting one, looks very much like oil/air filter fibre as the guys said - I'd check there first.

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 02:19:41 PM »
 Andy.....you should safety wire the oil tank cap if you think someone is screwing around with it.
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fuzzybutt

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 02:27:35 PM »
woolly bits in the oil pan? has a new zealander been messing with it?  ;D

Offline GoatBaSS

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 03:45:49 PM »
I took some clearer pics today and I think you can see it much better....it is metallic - see "stuff" at end of magnet....









cheers
Andy

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Offline Kevin D

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 04:38:18 PM »
Andy, this is what has me in a tiz, a half circle of steel wire, .006" diameter, circle size about 1", rubber attached. I have the top end apart now and haven't seen anything related, so the bottom end is next. And I'm thinking since its 1" in diameter its part of the output shaft seal, which
all leads to the question:

When your output bearing went, how did the shaft seal fare?
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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 04:42:31 PM »
 You guys are going to find buried treasure in a pan next. ;) ;D
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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 04:43:50 PM »
 Seriously.....I think the magnetic pieces are mixed with the fiber parts Andy.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 04:54:06 PM »
Kinda reminds me of the old trick to put sawdust in trannys and rear ends of cars to quieten them down when you sell them.

Hey Mike, you stole my previous thought.
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Offline andy750

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 07:49:01 PM »
Yeah I agree with you Mike. Im not too worried about it as it was running ok and after changing the oil on Saturday I took it for a ride despite missing one baffle  8) ;)....loud! When I pull the oil filter case or look in the oil tank I may know more....

Kevin D - when my gear bearing went (the one behind the shifter mechanism)  - I knew it as I could hear crunching sounds when going into first gear! Looking at your pic I would not have pulled my engine unless there was also an accompanying noise! Anyway turned out the half-circlip that holds the gear bearing in was crucial and this needed replaced as it had split - however I THINK it was discontinued from Hionda and DSS couldnt sell me one...had to hunt high and low for one!

Anyway I hope you have better luck tracking down your cause - my bike runs great now so was surprised when saw this stuff in oil pump filter!

cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline MoTo-BunnY

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 10:37:06 PM »
I am surprised that no one has really brought up that Fram oil filters are basically CRAP!   :o

Check out this guys page where he takes all sorts of brands of oil filters apart to see what they are made of and their quality - Frams were the worst of the worst. They have the least amount of filter surface and the caps on both ends were made out of cardboard. That's why I immediately thought of this article because that stuff you took out of your pan looks like cardboard and/or filter fibers to me (along with the metal bits).

I know the filter is not the spin on type, like the ones this guy takes apart, but I bet the quality is still crappy. Wix filters are really well made, come with all the replacement rubber o-rings, and cost me only like $7.00 so seems silly to cheapen out and go for a Fram?


http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html




"The Fram uses a decent material, but it is arranged unevenly between the cardboard end caps, which are actually thinner than the filter element. Since the valve doesn't hold the element in place, they use an octagon shaped end cap, which allows the oil to flow through between the flat section and the round canister. This doesn't leave a lot of room for the oil to flow around the end cap, and puts more stress on the cardboard. The Fram had the least filter area by a wide margin. It was also the thickest, but it was very fragile. Removing a portion of material for measurement totally destroyed the filter cartridge since the end caps and center tube are not attached. This made it very difficult to test, and showed another downside to the cardboard end caps, which are evidently very flexible."



"The inner tube is metal, but has very few holes for oil to pass through, possibly restricting flow. It is also not held in place at all, and moves around easily."



"The base plate is a thick material and has lots of threads. The holes drilled into it are numerous, but small, so their ability to flow is probably on the low side. The gasket is thin both in thickness and height, and crimped on with light indents in five places."



"The anti-drain back valve is cheap, and very thin. It fits loosly into the cardboard end cap. I'm not sure how, if at all this seals."

ALSO RELEVANT:

"I have taken apart several used filters, in an effort to find failure. A design may look bad. but may never have any problems. Or it may look flawless, but fail in use. So far the only failure I've found is from this Fram PH3387A. This does not mean that all Fram filters will fail, but does back up some of my observations."



"This filter element has seen better days. The cardboard end caps are actually intact, but the filter element has been severely damaged."



"As you can clearly see, the filter has a hole in it. This is probably caused by the oil pressure actually pushing the filter right through a hole in the inner tube. "



"Here's the most disturbing part. The anti-drain back valve has actually folded over, allowing the oil to completely bypass the filter element. The Fram's thin valve and poor design is the most likely cause. Unlike most of the other filters, there is not a metal end cap to support the valve. Another thing to note is that the valve was rock hard, obviously affected by the dirty oil. This suggest that a Silicone ADBV is a better idea. "
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Online MRieck

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2008, 04:48:08 AM »
 I believe the Extra Guard Fram filters are much better than the orange filters. I recently had a big problem with a Bosch filter in one of my vehicles
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2008, 05:01:10 AM »
I believe that you can tell when looking at good quality filters. For example, I use Mann fleece filters in one of my cars. They have more surface area than most filters, due to the pleating system, are robust structurally, and the fleece material filters significantly better than paper, but does not deteriorate or pull apart. Bosch used to brand them themselves, but discontinued for a cheaper substitute. I still believe when it comes to filters, why jepordize your bike for a $5.00 difference?

Offline 754

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2008, 08:07:47 AM »
So How much are Honda filters??

Riders spend huge bux for helmets and other protection..then some want to start a savings account by getting cheaper filters..


I always tell people, "Good oil is the CHEAPEST thing you can do for your motor"

I usually change my oil a lot on a fresh motor, and read what is coming out, and dont change filter as much. If I use an aftermarket filter I inspect them closely..
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 08:09:42 AM by 754 »
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Offline cafe750

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2008, 08:47:14 AM »
So How much are Honda filters??

About 10 bucks...Anyone know how the K+N motorcycle oil filters are? Are they good, or are they just another filter that is riding on the company name?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 08:50:22 AM by cafe750 »
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2008, 12:39:01 PM »
I'm not saying this is the problem in Andy's case but, do any of you check what you put into your oil tank.
I've seen contaminated oil on more than one occasion.
I allways fillter new oil before it goes into a motor.

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2008, 02:26:38 PM »
The stuff in the oil pan or crankcase can stay there for ages; it took me lots of pressurized hot water to remove the crud from my CB350; and it was only 15.000 km or so.

The conspiranoid in me tells me you have been sabotaged; the simple mind in me tells me that somebody in the past used a full-of-lint, crappy, dirty rag to clean the dipstick everytime he checked the oil level.


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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2008, 03:58:01 PM »
...conspiranoid..

 Damn - now you're inventing perfectly good English words.  ;D

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2008, 06:16:39 PM »
Andy, you may want to send the oil out for an analysis. I did this in case I won against GM. They are very good at telling you what metals are in your oil and give a pretty close idea of engine wear. That fiber in your pan may have been a cigarette butt someone put in your oil tank.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2008, 10:51:18 PM »
Okay whats' wrong with this...
Oil in tank goes to oil pump
Oil pump pushes oil to filter
From filter oil goes the bearings etc.
Oil then collects in sump
Screen filters oil from scavenge pump.
Scavenge pump puts oil back in tank.
Go to line 2

If the above is true...
Doesn't this mean that debris entering the oil tank must go through the filter and important bits of the engine mechanical in order to get planted in the pick up screen?
Does any body else feel that shreds of metal pumped to crank and rod journals would have a pretty serious negative effect on mating surface quality?
I kind of think that the screen debris noted probably did not come from the oil tank...Or this engine's service life is seriously curtailed if those metal bits oozed past the bearing journals.
It is magnetic material and the hope must be something from the trans area.  Perhaps the remains of that broken circlip that didn't get cleaned out after that repair?

Or, I have no idea what I'm typing.  If so... never mind. :-X

Cheers?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2008, 11:01:57 PM »
Something like that  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam.  ::) :D ;)
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Offline andy750

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Re: Odd stuff in oil pan -CB750K2
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2008, 05:23:06 AM »
Good point Llyod so let me expand on your analysis.....when the lower cases were split the guy doing the work (after I failed the first time) cleaned the lower cases throughly (and I am certain of this) - so I have to assume that if cases were cleaned spotlessly and circlip was replaced as should have been, then either he dropped something in trans when re-assembling and didnt notice or the circlip failed again for a reason that hasnt yet been fixed - and may be on its way out - if the latter is the case then time will tell and I will eventually get the crunching gear sound I have gotten twice before now. I dont think the latter is the case either as this guy was very anal about things - although he did mess up my kickstart (dosent work anymore) so perhaps I have too much faith in his abilities.....hard to say without ripping the engine apart and not something Im inclined to do this year...(.already have the K4 engine waiting to be removed from the frame!)

I hope not but unless I find anything out of the ordinary in the filter area Im not quite sure what else to think. Perhaps Ill be lucky and nothing will come of it.... ::) Anyway Ill keep everyone posted as this bikes gets used more once the snow melts.

Thanks for all the comments so far and maybe its not such a bad idea to periodically check the oil pump screen.

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350