Author Topic: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...  (Read 13784 times)

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Offline brandon

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H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« on: January 20, 2008, 02:41:03 PM »
I searched the archives and came up with nothing. The internet yielded little information as well. Maybe because I'm an electrician I have a certain 'penchant' for good and sufficient lighting. Personally, I feel that OEM headlight is a bit sub-par and seriously needs to be brought into the 21st century.

I am curious if any of you fellow members have done, or know someone who has done an H.I.D. head light conversion on their old Honda bike? Maybe you know of someone who makes a kit? A trick retrofit to the existing headlight? If I can find sufficient parts and if the conversion doesn't look like ass, I'd like to do this to my 400F.

Since I commute on my CB400F daily, I long for the days of an absurdly bright headlight...

Offline schneider419

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 03:44:11 PM »
try this site  www.candlepowerinc.com

Offline BobbyR

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 04:41:08 PM »
The only potential problem some have reported is a very heavy draw on the battery and alternator. These alternators really don;t put out any power below 2500 Rpm. Some have rewired the circuit, If nothing else all connections should be cleaned. Auto H4 lamps seem to be a logical choice.
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Offline .RJ

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 05:45:16 PM »
The only potential problem some have reported is a very heavy draw on the battery and alternator. These alternators really don;t put out any power below 2500 Rpm. Some have rewired the circuit, If nothing else all connections should be cleaned. Auto H4 lamps seem to be a logical choice.

A HID setup should draw less power than an upgraded Halogen bulb.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 05:52:34 PM »
It is important to compare the wattage drawn for the new lighting to that of the old lighting.  Any increase in power consumption, regardless of the light output, is going to drain the battery faster at idle, and require a higher RPM to begin recharging the battery.

Cheers,

P.S. A slight correction.  The alternator does make power at idle RPM, just not enough to overcome the stock system loads AND charge the battery.  So, the battery depletes at idle.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 05:54:09 PM »
The only potential problem some have reported is a very heavy draw on the battery and alternator. These alternators really don;t put out any power below 2500 Rpm. Some have rewired the circuit, If nothing else all connections should be cleaned. Auto H4 lamps seem to be a logical choice.

A HID setup should draw less power than an upgraded Halogen bulb.
I am anxious to see if this works out. I have been suffering with the dim bulb syndrome for years.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline Gordon

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 06:04:22 PM »
I just put "HID headlight" in the search field and came up with a couple of good, informative threads on the subject. 

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7367.0

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=19912.0

Offline LMAERO_396

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 06:06:32 PM »
It is important to compare the wattage drawn for the new lighting to that of the old lighting.  Any increase in power consumption, regardless of the light output, is going to drain the battery faster at idle, and require a higher RPM to begin recharging the battery.

Cheers,

P.S. A slight correction.  The alternator does make power at idle RPM, just not enough to overcome the stock system loads AND charge the battery.  So, the battery depletes at idle.

So it would make sense that a modern Volt Reg, Rectifier, & switching everything else to LED should help when increasing the headlamp power.  What else can be done to improve the system?  A brighter headlamp is also an improvement for safety as well so I'm very interested in this.

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Offline LMAERO_396

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 06:09:36 PM »
I just put "HID headlight" in the search field and came up with a couple of good, informative threads on the subject. 

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7367.0

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=19912.0

oh yeah, the dreaded search function  :D  Hate it when I forget to search.  :P

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Offline rhinoracer

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 06:20:37 PM »
Offroad racers rewind their alternators to get more wattage, plenty to run twin HIDs.
Baja native.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 06:22:13 PM »
Quote
So it would make sense that a modern Volt Reg, Rectifier, & switching everything else to LED should help when increasing the headlamp power.

A rectifier converts AC to DC.  I don't think new ones are much, if any, more efficient.
The stock regulator applies full battery voltage to the alternator field at idle, provided the internal contacts are good and the regulator is provided with the full voltage that exists at the battery terminals via the bike electrical wiring.   If the alternator receives full field voltage, it's being all it can be any any given RPM.

LED's can, indeed, reduce power consumption.  However, some are "load balanced" to provide the same resistance and wattage draw that standard incandescents have.  Shop carefully.

I suggest you measure the voltage your present headlight "sees" right at it's connector, and immediately compare it to the voltage present at the battery terminals.  Old wiring connectors and switches CAN reduce the delivered voltage.  And, THAT reduces light output from even a stock bulb.

The stock alternator is capable of 30 to maybe 50 watts at idle RPM. FYI.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline eurban

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 07:08:13 AM »

Old wiring connectors and switches CAN reduce the delivered voltage.  And, THAT reduces light output from even a stock bulb.

Cheers,

My experience has been that even with new switches, and "detailed" (wiring in good shape, clean & tight fitting connectors) wiring, that there is a noticeable voltage drop at the headlight.  (About .3 volts or so on my 78 750K ignition on, engine off)  I am pretty happy with my Halogen headlight's current light output so I have gone no further,  but when I found similar (closer to .5 volts) results with the voltage supplied at the coils I decided to install a relay which resulted in less than .1 volt loss  at the coils.  One could certainly do the same with the headlights but it would necessitate two basic relays or a single relay designed for high and low beam operation.  Having less amperage running through the switches (with the relay only a very small current is required to hold the relay "on") will probably allow them to last longer, particularly if you are running a higher wattage bulb than the wiring/switches were originally designed to handle.  Certainly this adds a bit more complexity to the system but if you want to get the most light output out of your headlight a relay setup should help. . . .Most of the HID setups I have seen will draw about the same as a standard 35watt bulb but produce much, much more light. 

Offline Bodi

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2008, 07:24:45 AM »
The stock alternator can make 30 to 50 watts, but as TT also mentioned this is less than the ignition and alternator field coil need... so you will always have the battery draining at idle.
The LED conversions are a good load reducer but won't fix a weak electrical system. If you use low current LED signal lamps you will need an electronic flasher to replace the stock one or they will not flash. LEDs with load resistors will not save any power - they waste as much power as regular lamps use so that thermo-mechanical flashers still work.
The only lights that are on "all the time" are the headlight (this you want brighter...), the tail-light, and the front markers (in low beam). Be very careful with LED tail-lamp replacements - most are extremely dim compared with the stock bulb and your brake light will be quite impossible to see in daylight. I think this is a severe safety problem. After much experimentation (and $$$) I found a module using a single 3 watt Luxeon red LED that's brighter (subjectively) than the stock bulb. None of the other (10 or so I tried) multi-LED modules were worth sh1t.
I would disconnect the markers and keep the original bulbs for signals. There aren't any worthwhile 90 degree LED units I've found and the cost is mental... unless you leave the signals on all the time you aren't saving any power anyhow.
The HID lamps I've come across are of 2 types:
One has a HID low or high beam lamp (not both) plus a normal type lamp for the other function.
The other has a single HID lamp and a solenoid deal that moves the lamp in the reflector to change from low to high beam.
There's always a power supply box with a high voltage cable to the actual lamp.
The 400F headlight has two problems as stock - the headlight lamp itself is an odd small size used on very few vehicles, and the shell itself is small and shallow. The HID modules I've described are H4 bulb replacements and you would need an H4 reflector to fit the shell. Direct fit H4 replacement lamp are quite difficult to find, you can make a 6.5" automotive one fit with a bit of ingenuity and glue but it's a slightly bigger diameter and deeper than the stock lamp unit. The HID/normal bulbs would probably fit in the shell but you would have to find a place for the PS box. The solenoid shifting lamps stick out the back a lot (that's where the solenoid stuff is) and I don't think there's any chance of fitting one in a stock shell.
So maybe with a non-stock headlight shell fit on somehow?
Check previous threads about charging system issues. By renovating the wiring harness connections and switch contacts you may be able to get a surprising amount more juice from that alternator.

Offline 754

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2008, 07:53:06 AM »
I am pretty electrodumb.. but thot I sould mention..

On 72 and down the off/low/high switch tends to melt easy with higher draw lights.

If low rpm alt output is a problem, could you not run this headlight and a smaller running light for the lower rpm stuff?
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Offline rhinoracer

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2008, 07:55:33 AM »
Like I said, you can get more than 100 watts from a rewired stator. Check this link to a rewiring shop for offroad bikes.

https://www.bajadesigns.com/net/mainframe2.aspx?login=YES&category=MCYCLE

Baja native.

Offline 333

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2008, 08:06:14 AM »
First, Candlepower is the place to start for a housing.  They make one that fits the odd 350/400F size.  162 MM (I think).  Then go here;
http://www.hid-sin.com/motorcycles.htm
This is an HID system specifically for M/Cs.  Get the H-4.  It will fit the housing from Candlepower.  It will produce more than enough light compared to todays bikes with the current draw of the stock headlight(35w for a 350F).
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Offline jaguar

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 08:35:27 AM »
couldnt you just use the cheap kit from ebay and the "ture" HID together?

Offline Steve F

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2008, 09:43:41 AM »
What do you do for HIGH / LOW beam with an HID system?  I read somewhere that they use a solenoid or small motor to tilt the bulb up and down to accomplish this.  Any other ways of doing the hi/low beams?

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2008, 10:01:55 AM »
My daughter just bought a Nissan Rogue with an adjustment for the headlights to adjust them down so they don't annoy other drivers when cresting a hill, or other situations where the angle of the car make the headlights aim high.  I'll have to look to see how high and low beams work.
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Offline eurban

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2008, 10:35:35 AM »
The stock alternator can make 30 to 50 watts, but as TT also mentioned this is less than the ignition and alternator field coil need... so you will always have the battery draining at idle.

I have no direct experience with the 400s or the 500/550s, and perhaps you and TT are refering to the 400f that the orginal poster is hoping to upgrade.  However, on my 750 anyway, I am getting just about 14 volts at the battery at idle (1000 RPM)  Bike's current mix is a halogen headlight, electronic ignition, 3 ohm coils, luxeon tailight, and a solid state regulator from that fellow in Oregon.  Battery is definitely charging; I have tested this many times. . . The luxeon 1157 tailight is bright indeed but it's beam is definitely more focused than a standard bulb.   My rear turn signals are aftermarket LEDs units and they are not as bright or as widely visible as I would like.  I would go with something using a standard bulb if I had it to do over again.  Fronts signals are flexible LED arrays that wrap around the fork tubes  and are very bright and can be seen from many angles.   PIA to setup initially but very minimalist and functional. . . . . Overall, starting first with a carefull detailing of the entire electrical system (wiring harness, connectors, ground connections, fuse box and switches) will certainly help both to increase light output and reduce power consumption.  I might do HID someday but my current halogen setup seems to work well enough for now.   
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 10:41:52 AM by eurban »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2008, 10:43:13 AM »
The stock alternator can make 30 to 50 watts, but as TT also mentioned this is less than the ignition and alternator field coil need... so you will always have the battery draining at idle.

I have no direct experience with the 400s or the 500/550s, and perhaps you and TT are refering to the 400f that the orginal poster is hoping to upgrade.  However, on my 750 anyway, I am getting just about 14 volts at the battery at idle (1000 RPM)  Bike's current mix is a halogen headlight, electronic ignition, 3 ohm coils, luxeon tailight, and a solid state regulator from that fellow in Oregon.  Battery is definitely charging; I have tested this many times. . . The luxeon 1157 tailight is bright indeed but it's beam is definitely more focused than a standard bulb.   My rear turn signals are aftermarket LEDs units and they are not as bright or as widely visible as I would like.  I would go with something using a standard bulb if I had it to do over again.  Fronts signals are flexible LED arrays that wrap around the fork tubes  and are very bright and can be seen from many angles.   PIA to setup initially but very minimalist and functional. . . . . Overall, starting first with a carefull detailing of the entire electrical system (wiring harness, connectors, ground connections, fuse box and switches) will certainly help both to increase light output and reduce power consumption.     
Have you taken a reading above 1000 RPM? That is quite a good voltage at that speed. Dis you adjust the regulator? When you mention detailing the electrical system what done that ential. I intend to do that this winter and and collectih approaches. 
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Offline eurban

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 11:14:28 AM »
Regulator is an aftermarket solid state (not adjustable) unit from Oregon Motorcycle Parts //www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Products.html   I think last time I checked I was getting between 13.8-13.9 volts at 1000 rpm and 14.5 at anything above 1500rpm or so.  I have done a frame up refurb of my bike and I do have a new ignition switch, and new left and right handle bar control switches.  I checked over the entire harness for damaged wiring,  and connection issues where the wire meets the metal connectors.  Pay close attention to the wires that run inside the shifter cover and connect up to the alternator.  Most of the electrical connectors on my bike were brass/copper and I cleaned them manually or dipped in Tarnx (works wonders on copper/brass and doesn't hurt the plastic surrounds).  If the fittings seemed loose, I tightened them up. I use electrical contact grease on the connections to help keep water out.  The stock fuse box is used but its blades are cleaned up and tensioned to hold the fuses firmly.  I am also using the correct size fuses that fully contact the blades. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 11:53:30 AM by eurban »

Offline Bodi

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 12:30:09 PM »
Yes, I'm referring to the 350/400 alternators specifically. The 750 alternator is quite a bit more powerful.

Rewinding may be an option, but there's no direct comparison between a permanent magnet design as shown in that linked site and the induced field type we have. Most offroad engine alternators have a dedicated ignition winding and a separate lighting winding, just big enough to power the stock lights and charge the battery (if it has electric start). There's generally lots of room to wind more turns on the pole pieces for more output. The rotor magnets are usually spinning on the outside of the stator and the coils are quite exposed.
With our bikes, the stator is pretty dang full and the rotor is inside, leaving no room for more wire and a limited space for working if you want to strip and rewind the thing. There are two rewinding possibilities - a stator rewound to make more electricity from the available magnetic field, or a rewound field coil to make a stronger field. I haven't heard of any experiments with either approach, rewinding the field coil brings up the cost/benefit question ie how much more field can you get with the same current draw. If your rewinding increases the coil current for more magnetic field, do you get back as much at the output?
The final possibility is to make a rotor that is more efficient in tranferring the magnetic field, or has permanent magnets embedded in it that would supply a base power that the field coil would add to. So, has anyone ever tried?

The Luxeon bulb is very bright from behind the bike where I would personally want it as bright as possible. There's no reflector action since all the light beams directly from the LED, and off-angle it's dimmer than from straight behind - but still apparently as bright as the stock unit except from side-on. Side-on it isn't super noticeable in sunlight, definitely the stock bulb is better. I'm not too worried whether the stop lamp is bright from the side. There's no white license plate lamp so it isn't "legal" but the stray red light is bright enough to read the plate, obviously you can't tell the letter colour though (blue) making identifying the province from afar a bit tougher. In the dark, so much light is reflected around the inside of the lens/cover that the whole thing is plenty bright from all angles, and impossible (I hope) no miss from behind. The "instant on" stop light brightness is attention getting as well, I notice this with any vehicle with LED tail/stop lamps.

Cleaning up the harness connectors and repairing or replacing switches and fuse blocks where there's a large voltage drop should be the first step in "fixing" the charging system. The induced field alternator is very sensitive to voltage drop - the lost power for the field coil makes less power at the stator. The minimum voltage drop from the battery + terminal in a "perfect" wiring harness is about 1/2 volt at the regulator with the engine running and headlight etc on. This is due to the current flowing through the characteristic resistance of the wire itself. You can eliminate most of this - down to about 0.1V - by installing a relay and fused power lead from the battery to the regulator, activated by the ignition switch (any black wire). I don't know if the extra 0.4V at the field coil will increase the output more than the extra draw of the relay coil though. This does increase your headlight voltage a bit - the harness voltage drop is reduced just because the field coil power is not running through the harness wire any more. Vice-versa too - a headlight relay ups the regulator voltage for the same reason.

The electronic regulator can not produce much more power at idle than the mechanical one. At low voltage (ie battery is discharging) the stock regulator connects the field coil directly, via a switch contact, to the black ignition power wire. No electronic switch device can do better, and most cannot do as well. The mechanical regulator does use some electrical power itself, more than the electronic one but not really much in the big picture. The most an electronic regulator can improve the situation is this lower parasitic draw plus whatever voltage drop improvement results from this slightly lower total field coil + regulator current. My experiments with a mechanical one vs an Oregon Electric unit showed the idle voltages were the same and if one was a tiny bit better I couldn't see it as the actual voltage fluctuates. There was a difference at "charging" RPM. The electronic one held a much steadier voltage once the system stabilized with a fully charged battery, the mechanical one would bounce around between 13V and 16V or so while the OE one just sat at (as I recall) 14.6V. This is just the way mechanical ones work and I don't know if the steadier voltage really matters to anything.

Thanks for the Candlelight tip. Has anyone tried this lamp - does it install to the stock 3-point attachment system?

The 400F bucket is still really small, unless this H4 reflector has a VERY shallow dished shape the protruding hi/low solenoid is not going to fit in there and the ballast will have to be attached under or behind the bucket. I suppose you cut hack off the back of the bucket and let the solenoid stuff stick out.
With my Cibie reflector it's a trick just to get all the wiring in there using a normal H4 lamp.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 12:40:57 PM »
I have no direct experience with the 400s or the 500/550s, and perhaps you and TT are refering to the 400f that the orginal poster is hoping to upgrade. 
That is correct. The 400/500/550 alternator is physically smaller and there are less windings in them compared to the 750.  Less windings make the field coil a higher resistance, so it draws about 10 more watts than the 750.  And there is less output wire over which to develop power, so it puts out less.  Another factor is the magnetic core material in the rotor has less mass, I think.

Also, if I place any credence of reports on this forum, there seems to be quite a variability of output capacity among alternators within each mark.  I'd guess that is the result of production tolerances.  Which means, some alternators on some bikes will simply work better than examples found on other bikes of the same type. Even when electrical wiring issues are equivalent.

Cheers,

P.S. Jeez Bodi types fast.  Er, maybe I type slow?
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Offline eurban

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Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2008, 01:28:53 PM »
I'm not implying any magic in the use of a solid state regulator.  I have measured the charging voltage at the battery with a quality volt meter on a number of occasions, particularly when I was debating whether or not to relay my coils.  I don't have a stock regulator before test to compare to but I do get very consistent readings now and they are well above the threshold for charging.  On OMP's website he advertises the units as being able to deliver (between 13.5 and 14 volts) a charging level of voltage at idle speeds.  My personal experience on my 78 750 confirms this claim and I am happy with the product. . . . .  Interesting idea about relaying the field coil supply!