Topic: Behind The Curve??

[754]

To start with, I go to both sides of the fence on my involvement in bikes..

That said, I keep seeing disparaging remarks thrown at THE MOTOR COMPANY fairly often.. usually uninformed type of stuff.

So I have to put this out there,

Do you really think that a bike company that for decades, and I do mean decades, sold more bikes over 1000cc, than Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha.. combined.. yes all of them together! No they have not been the last few years, but it took virtually decades for these huge companies to wrestle the heavyweight bike sales away from them..

Of course there is always someone at the back of the room, jumping up and down with their hand up!!.. and they will tell you they are overpriced, and not a modern bike, etc, etc..

So I tell you to ask yourselves, are they really behind the curve that far, or are some of the casual obsrevers just not seeing  things they dont want to see..?

[andy750]

If you are trying to stir up a little controversy then at least name the COMPANY you are talking about or do we have to read between the lines as well.....Im assuming you are comparing apples with oranges..I mean HARLEY versus Japanese? Why oh why? 

cheers
Andy

[Gordon]

Was the bickering in the other thread not enough for you? 

[ekim98]

He's probably refering to me and my dislike for harley. I'll stop picking on them, but I'm sure they don't need you to stand up for them, but feel free to do so. You will get a lot of post from this thread. Do respond on my acount, I won't be back to this thread.

[mgmuellner]

IMO the bikes are not as bad as those that ride them. 

[Rocking-M]

Pushrods, bah humbug.

[Gregorymoto]

I have allot of experience on this subject, my dad was the owner of Olympia HD way back when. He sold it in 88 after the HD big boys told him that he needed to barrow allot of money and yuppie up the shop in renovations before they would reissue him a HD franchise licenses and sell him bikes to sell They wanted a new look. Which brings me to the behind the curve of HD.

I love HD and I love Hondas mostly old Hondas, but what I hate is people thinking they are better or faster or cooler due to the bike they have under their ass.
I think this is why most people hate HD, that company has changed allot over the years and it is now selling ideas of youth and bad assness mostly to but whip folks that have never really spent the time to figure out what it is they are.
The bikes are good, they are fun it is the club mentality that goes with the bike I hate. I didn’t like it when I was 16 and guys at the shop would tell me I could not work on my 75 CB750 SS in the shop. All the guys that told me to get a real bike. Even though I had a 72 sportster I was working on all the time. (all the time)
What is behind the curve is the mentality, not the bikes. HD makes a good solid bike that rides real nice. If you have never been on a Road King you have know idea. That is one of the best bikes I have ever traveled on.
I like it better than the new Honda VTX, which is not to say the VTX is a bad bike.

I don’t know if that works as a response but its what comes to mind.
G. Mountain

[dustyc]

I think it's just a bit of rivalry and ball busting.  All in good fun.  Just a matter of taste.  Those with good taste like SOHC Hondas.  Those with no taste like Harleys.


What do Harleys and dogs have in common?

They both like to ride in the back of pick up trucks.



What is the difference between the dog and the Harley?

The dog can get in the back under it's own power.



Did you know that 98% of the Harleys ever made are still on the road today?

The other 2% made it back home.

[754]

Gregmoto, Where was Olympia.. if it was where you are now, then you would have been competing with the likes of Dron & Perkins... that may be tough.. Yeak their Yuppie policies killed off a lot of olt time shops..

But I really like your thoughts  and views on the matter..

I dont think everyone should like the same thing and there are different stokes for different folks.

 I dont mind a good spirited discussion about the pros & cons of any particullar make.. but I would not constantly throw out jabs  that are ill-informed either.

 I for one am not very keen on sport bikes and the attitudes of some of the Duck riders, but I dont constantly  talk ill of them  any chance I get.

 But I will say this,  the 2 oldest manufacturers are still producing derivatives of their designs that go back 70 years or more.. and there is many makes that are technologicaly superior  for a lot of reasons.. but yet they still sell and have a loyal following.. why do you suppose that is??

Now I used to ride with a lot of people of both camps.. and listen to their views..   and in my opinion all sides like to slam the others to a certain extent. I also look at who was riding 25 years ago and if they still are today.. and some of them were pretty short term ..

[eldar]

You have already had your answer. Nostalgia and image are the main reasons people ride harleys. Simple as that.

[BobbyR]

Harley is about image and they did a good job of it. Me I am about taking a ride and getting home. A spritz of chain oil, a set of plugs every year, an oil change once a month, and I go wherever I want.

[754]

Well I for one dont agree completely.. & what of the popularity of a Beemer twin???.. image?.. I think not.... and what about Motorcops.. do you think they seek the image at a higher price.. or the workhorse they need and can use.. ( actually the price is not higher, if you want I can explain)


My answer is simple    useable power.. what you need and use the most in everyday riding.. Japanese bike for decades got caufght up in the horsepower race and forgot about torque..
 So  I have to ask.. what do you use more of the time riding legally??

Luckily I ended up with a combo that produces  more torque than a lot of 4 cylinders never came close to.. and I got to say.. it is more enjoyable than I ever thought it could be..

So i got to ask ..how much of your day are you using horsepower and how much are you using torque?

[eldar]

Well your little diatribe about usable power is bs. It takes BOTH to form usable power. But I will tell you this, we do not ride these bikes to use nothing but torque, we all know that. Our powerbands start at 5000 or if you have the 77/78, 4000.

Also the cb750 WAS used as a police bike as were some kawis and probably other bikes. I seem to recall plenty of euro bikes were used overseas. The use of harley was more of a union and image thing for the police too. The want to be seen as more american and so use harleys. If police need a bike that goes fast, I can tell you it is not a harley. Also a rocket is faster than any harley after 10 feet. I suppose if you are just cruisin traffic, then that torque might be ok but I find that I cruise just fine and it only takes 1 second to drop a gear if I even need to, to get going.
I will also say this. I can keep up with virtually any harley after just a few feet in most cases. I wont hold a candle to a rocket at any speed.

A beemer is also about image but a different style image. Its whole image is BMW, same basic image as their cars. However they did make good bikes.

I must ask though, since you seem to think or at least make it sound that you like harleys better, why are you here? No offence just a simple question.

I am sure most here who know great plenty will agree with most of what I say.

[inline4]

Harley-Davidson:
Turning gasoline into obnoxious noise without the
harmful effects of horsepower since 1903.

[754]

Why am I here.. because i like CB 750's.. always have..

Have owned the same one for coming up on 1/3 of a century, and a lot of others. have ridden quite a few miles on them too.

Also worked on other bikes, made parts for a lot of them, sponsored a buddy or two.. used to make a living making parts for bikes, but I did not go into it with blinders on.

BTW I totally disagree with you BMW image comment, have you ever owned or ridden one for a while?

 I am not saying Harley is better, but I can respect a machine for what it is.and what it can do.

BTW, if you gave me  a G-note to put  into an 883 Sportster from the eighties .. and I put the same amount into yours.. I know which one one I would put the money on being quicker.. and yes we have done it.

What you say about PD bikes may hold true in the USA but not up here.. I still see the overall majority of PDs worldwide use torquey bikes, Beemers, Guzzis.. to name a few other brands.. but a big one for them is resale value.. I did stumble (online)on the original bid tender and buy-back offer for the Vancouver PD.. it was a pretty sweet deal what they paid and then got back after 5 or so years.. never happen on an offshore bike..

I realize that both Hp & torque are required to go down the road.. but what can you actually use the MOST of the time?? I am pretty sure its not Max hp in a legal setting..

So I should ask.. how many other bikes have you raced against.. at  or off the strip..?? ...as you are saying you can beat most h-d's after 10 ft.

[techy5025]

...my neighbor has a new Harley. The only thing I like about it is the final belt drive. I'm sure they have made other engineering improvements over the years, but "most" people buy them because of the image that Harley has sold...very well I might add. Have you ever seen an ad for Harley that goes into any technical detail about the bike? Although I do care about how a bike looks, it's the technical stuff that sells me....that's why I bought my first 750 in '69. 

Harley has enjoyed a baby boom buying spree, from people that have never owned bikes, that is probably not sustainable. I doubt that the younger crowd that grew up on sport bikes is going to trade them in for Harley's. They may be OK on the road but there are better...and cheaper choices.

...just my $.02 worth.

Jim

[BobbyR]

I was talking to the Atlantic City Lt. in charge of their motorcycle unit. They have converted their fleet to BMW from Harley. He told me the older cops grumbled before they rode them. Now the cops love them and the number of injuries has gone down due to the antilock brakes and the better handling. He said they also find the cops are less fatigued since they are smoother running.   

[andy750]

California Highway Patrol also switched to BMWs and more info on other states and general discussion can be found here....

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/12/30/harley-davidson-police-motorcycle-ends/

whereas in Europe the police are turning to the Japanese....

http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/12152005105152MWEDKY.htm

So who is really behind the curve? 


cheers
Andy

[GoatBaSS]

The PO Po are a good litmus test. The B'ham officer I posed the question to a few years ago wanted the harley, it was cheaper and easy to drive compared to the Kawasaki he was on at the time. The only reason they got those bikes was the salesman got hold of the right guy in purchasing and there were rumors of a "bonus" to that guy. Regardless of legality, you see Kawi and this guy hated them.
The over the mountain police (suburbs with own govt) One uses HD, and they seem to like them. But If I had my own tune up shop, required to do work every few weeks, I would be happy with anything.
Another uses strictly Beemers. They look good, have a great rep among the current users, and for me it does say a bit about longevity and long term cost to ride. It shows someone in the know was at the right place and the right time and decided to make the prudent decision to go long with the tax payers money. No it does not happen often, but it does happen.

[333]

I'm weighing in a little late, but here goes...

You'll notice the "fact" that started this thread(more 1000cc bikes sold...) was carefully worded.  It's easy to state that when that size bike is almost all they sell.  I believe they only have 2 engine sizes, I guess 3 now with the new water cooled one.  And with testosterone based selling techniques, it's easy to step a customer up to a larger one.

Harley has always been good at making statements that make them look good.  I was watching a show on Discovery a few months ago on Harleys.  Forget which one.  They did 1/4 of it on drag racing.  They were quite proud of the "fact" that they had the fastest factory drag race team.  They of course left out that they were the ONLY factory drag race team, or that the Japanese have ALWAYS kicked butt on the drag strip.

Harley isn't the only one out there doing it.  The car manufacturers (mostly Ford) like to throw out the phrase "best selling".  This doesn't mean that they sell more units, it means that they are better at selling (conning you into buying) than the other guy.  Chevy, in regards to their trucks, likes to use data that goes back to the 40s(before Ford really sold trucks) and say that more of their trucks are still on the road.  It's all in how you word it.

[dusterdude]

ive been a harley guy since 1983,before that my first bike was a cl350,damn nice bike,rode the pee outa that thing.ive always had a hard on for cb750`s,even when i was a youngster,finally bought mine 3 years ago.if i want to go fast i ride my 750,but i gotta tell ya my sportster from a stoplite to about 1/8th mile will pull your arms off if you aint holdin on tight.for me the harley is all about cruisin,i am going drag racing in the near future,am i gonna race a harley?no.im gonna race a kaw.i cant afford to run a harley and i can go faster on the kaw a helluva lot cheaper too.if you want to dog harley the company go right ahead ill be there with you.their corporate stance sucks.as far as the machine goes,the bikes built the last 15 years are light years ahead of  where they were in the 70`s and i would buy one in a heartbeat if the funds allow.ya`ll have a nice day.

[754]

it should have read 1000cc and over (the first post)

And the other manufacturers never say things to make themselves look good??

I dont recall the fact that they sold that many being used in their ads but it may have been.

I do recall though, I think Honda advertising the better V-twin and  talking about self adjusting valves, etc.. should have set record sales.. should it not? and cming over here and copying a lot of the styling of American bikes..

[333]

To some extent, they all do it.  When Honda came out with a single crankpin v-twin for the Shadow line, they advertised it with a 2 page ad that pictured the bike with the caption "Made You Look!"  This ticked off Harley so much that they tried to sue Honda over the "sound" that is distintcly made by that style of engine.

[azuredesign]

BTW I totally disagree with you BMW image comment, have you ever owned or ridden one for a while?

I was willing to let you mouth off for no good reason until you pushed the BMW issue. As a BMW owner on and off since 1971, your opinion is not representative of my own, keep it to yourself if you don't mind.

I have a lot of bike experience too, and I say every effing bike is cool in it's own way. I love the damned things, and I think your remarks are ill advised and contrived out of boredom. I'm finished with this thread, and you should consider the idea as well.

[edbikerii]

One thing I will say is that the Harley crowd started the whole Jap-bashing thing many years ago -- out of fear of competition.  I find it a very distasteful and cowardly way to protect the franchise.