Topic: Behind The Curve??

[BobbyR]

I work for a Japaneese Company so I use a company car also on longer trips. My choices are the Blue, Silver, Gold  Camrys. If the girl likes me on any given day she may give me an Avalon. So I drive my Mercury Mountaineer in and drive out with some flavor of Toyota. I don't care for the Camry but they take a real beating from the Japanese guys and they keep going.
I don;t spare the horses on rough NY streets and the little suckers don't rattle.

[jevfro]

great debate...
I'll have to side w/ TT arguments.  Plus this is a Honda forum right?   It is my firm belief that most ppl want whatever vehicle they buy to reflect themselves.  If you were to poll a random selection of individuals "what vehicle would you purchase if price was no object" They would mostly be high profile (and expensive) luxury brands.  So many ppl will go out and buy vehicles that are more expensive than they can really afford.  As credit card debt is rising, so is the mentality that "if everyone else has one why shouldn't I" 

I think it's just not fashionable to be frugal anymore.

Long live the cheap bastards!

[Bob Wessner]

Leasing has a great influence on people's choices as well. I wonder how many of the higher-end models would move off the lots if it weren't for leasing.

[Terry in Australia]

I work for a Japaneese Company so I use a company car also on longer trips. My choices are the Blue, Silver, Gold  Camrys. If the girl likes me on any given day she may give me an Avalon. So I drive my Mercury Mountaineer in and drive out with some flavor of Toyota. I don't care for the Camry but they take a real beating from the Japanese guys and they keep going.
I don;t spare the horses on rough NY streets and the little suckers don't rattle.

Yeah, nothing wrong with Camry's Bobby, my own car (given to me by a mate for free) is a 1990 Camry and it's a brilliant little car, but I would never have bought one because they are typical of Japanese consumer cars, they do everything well, it's just that they're as bland as vanilla yoghurt.

The Mitsubishi Magna went "tits up" because no-one here wanted a large front wheel drive car, and as Oz is a country with a large population of "Hoons", (rev-heads, racer-wannabes, whatever) because Mitsubishi never won any "Touring Car" championships which is dominated by Ford and (GM) Holden's V8 rear wheel drive cars, the cars weren't popular with the younger guys, so the resale values were always much less than the competition.

It's interesting that you mention the Toyota Avalon, (named after a town about 20 miles from where I work) it's an Aussie designed car which failed miserably here, for the same reason as the Magna. I'm happy that it did too, because this was a classic case of a manufacturer telling the consumers what they were gonna give them, as opposed to what the consumer actually wanted.

At the same time, Toyota are making a rear wheel drive Hilux "ute" (pickup truck) with a 250 BHP all alloy V6 with quad cams and injection, that is just begging for a decent sedan body! Nothing really wrong with the Avalon or the Camry, it's just that I like a little flavor in my yoghurt. Cheers, Terry.

[BobbyR]

You are right, they are bland. The Avalon is a poor man's Lexus. It feels more American than the Camrys. I take the Avalons to Boston since I am banging along at 80+ on long wide Interstates for four hours listening to Satellite radio. Now when I go to Brooklyn I am dodging gypsy cabs. buses and trucks I like the Camry since I can dodge in and out. Every Camry I have driven has a moan on the steering column. I asked a Toyota Tech and he said they all do that. Now for log hauls like my trips to Florida I love my 2005 Mountaineer.

I am a Yank, I like room and power. I will take all the third world oil I can get.

Hoooooooooo Haaaaaaaaaaa drain em dry, give it up or die. 

[Terry in Australia]

I am a Yank, I like room and power. I will take all the third world oil I can get.

Hoooooooooo Haaaaaaaaaaa drain em dry, give it up or die. 

Ha ha, there's no mistaking where you're from, Bobby! 

I don't know what a "Mountaineer" is, but I'm guessing it's like a "Canyonairo" from The Simpsons?

Hey my steering column "squeeks" on my old Camry too, I was driving it the other week and my wife noticed it for the first time and asked why, and I just said, "they all do that"! Cheers, Terry

[edbikerii]

I am a Yank, I like room and power. I will take all the third world oil I can get.

Hoooooooooo Haaaaaaaaaaa drain em dry, give it up or die. 

Ha ha, there's no mistaking where you're from, Bobby! 

I don't know what a "Mountaineer" is, but I'm guessing it's like a "Canyonairo" from The Simpsons?

Hey my steering column "squeeks" on my old Camry too, I was driving it the other week and my wife noticed it for the first time and asked why, and I just said, "they all do that"! Cheers, Terry

Silicone spray on the shaft at the grommet where it passes through the firewall will take care of that moan/squeek in about 3 seconds.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey thanks Ed, I'll get my wife a can of that stuff on the drive home tonight!

[hoodellyhoo]

I don't know what a "Mountaineer" is, but I'm guessing it's like a "Canyonairo" from The Simpsons?

lol I forgot all about the Canyonairo!!!

[BobbyR]

I am a Yank, I like room and power. I will take all the third world oil I can get.

Hoooooooooo Haaaaaaaaaaa drain em dry, give it up or die. 

Ha ha, there's no mistaking where you're from, Bobby! 

I don't know what a "Mountaineer" is, but I'm guessing it's like a "Canyonairo" from The Simpsons?

Hey my steering column "squeeks" on my old Camry too, I was driving it the other week and my wife noticed it for the first time and asked why, and I just said, "they all do that"! Cheers, Terry

No, it is actually a mid sized SUV.  Here is a link  http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/mountaineer/gallery.asp

[edbikerii]

What do you know?  This issue is even more timely now than it was back in February.

I believe Chrysler's pension plan is fully, or nearly fully funded. The health care liability side is another issue, but that's a can of worms for almost all of us... well, in the U.S. anyway.

I guess Chrysler Corp. funded their employees' retirement funds properly, then.  Of course, if healthcare was provided for in their contracts, then that should be funded as well (but probably isn't, as healthcare would be provided under the existing employee plans).

If not, and the UAW continues to drive Chrysler out of business, then most of those retirees will end up with Medicare (and Medicaid) as their primary insurance, driving our taxes even higher.

What will the UAW do for those former auto workers then?  What will the UAW do for America then?

[eldar]

Sad thing is this is applying to all THREE makers. Not just Chrysler anymore.

[333]

Funny how when this is spoken about in regards of a possible bailout, they never mention the UAW.  They only seem to blame the Big 3 for not building the right cars.

So Ed, how deep was this thread?

[edbikerii]

The Big 3 could have done a whole lot more R&D, marketing, design, marketing, PR, QA, etc. without the ~75% additional cost of the UAW labor contracts.  Or, they could just sell the cars at a huge discount, still be profitable, and run the Japanese out of town (or at least into lower profit margins).  Then we could all buy cars cheaper.  After all, it is THE CONSUMER (that's us) who is paying for those union contracts.

Now that isn't good enough for the UAW.  They want THE CONSUMER AND THE TAXPAYER to bail them out.  Nice.

One thing is for sure, the Japanese car companies are kicking our asses, and the UAW is making it worse.  The UAW are killing their own goose, and there won't be any more golden eggs, bailout or no, if they don't cut the bull-#$%*.

Just sayin'....

Funny how when this is spoken about in regards of a possible bailout, they never mention the UAW.  They only seem to blame the Big 3 for not building the right cars.

So Ed, how deep was this thread?

[eldar]

I would certainly have to agree with that. The UAW is shooting their own foot off. But blame goes to both sides.

[CaféElite]

Let them and their greedy false pockets fail. I know a lot of people will suffer but not as many as people say. There is this thing called supply and demand, other car manufactures will have to pick up the GM slack. This means producing more cars which will require more skill and more parts from third party peeps.. Hope you have the skills. Granted I know there is a dry spot we as a country will have to face. Even if GM "restructures"  a good chunk of non-loyalist that were thinking about GM will move because lack of faith. Are you going to drop 20k on a car that you are not sure will have its warranty honored. To bad cause the new G8 w/ sport package is pretty slick (Good job holden).


Atlas shrugged... I love you Ayn Rand .....................................Bob Barr you suck.. 

[333]

First, let's be clear about one thing.  This is nothing like Wall Street.  There is nobody getting filthy rich here.  Sure, there are some highly paid executives, but nowhere near the scale of investment bankers.  And certainly no one at the UAW is getting rich.  They were just negotiating the best deal for their members.

They have been talking on the news today about Citi letting 53,000 people go on to unemployment, and that it is one of the largest layoffs in history.  So, if only one of the Big 3 goes down, it will cause millions of people to loose their jobs, with maybe less than one-tenth of one percent of that deserving it.  Cause it's not just the manufacturer, it's dealers, and independent service centers.  They can't work on cars if they can't get parts.  And parts houses go under as well.  I drive a Chevy Astro.  They stopped making that in 05.  There was a decent number of aftermarket parts available at one time, but not any more.  And that's just one model.  That rule seems to be that there's no sense in making parts for cars that aren't made any more.  And I won't even go into how it will affect the owners of these cars.

[edbikerii]

Oh, 333, don't fall for those lies and fear-mongering!

No, Chapter 11 Bankruptcy means that the company is re-organized into a new company, or sold off to another company or companies.  The creditors (parts suppliers, etc.) get paid some percentage of what they are owed (many even get 100%), and they may get some equity in the new company.  Parts of the company may be sold off in order to raise money to pay creditors.  Existing shareholders get wiped out.  That's fair after all, since shareholders are the owners of the company, and since they permitted management to run it into the ground, they deserve to lose everything.

There is very little for America to fear if Chrysler or GM, or both, go bankrupt.  The only people who stand to lose are the UAW and the current shareholders.  Of course, the UAW are the biggest lobbyists for a "bailout".  Too bad the UAW's greed is what caused this problem in the first place.  The damage has already been done.  The companies already have tremendous ongoing wage, pension and benefits bills that will not go away with a mere $25Billion check.

Now is the time to think about the future.  It is time to think about solving the problems, rather than sticking band aids on them, and hoping that they go away before the taxpayer's money runs out.  How likely is it that the economy will turn around AND people will start buying GMs and Chryslers again in the next two years?  They had better damned well do something to break out of those horrible contracts and start innovating so that they can sell some damned cars, or else we'll just be thowing good money after bad.

First, let's be clear about one thing.  This is nothing like Wall Street.  There is nobody getting filthy rich here.  Sure, there are some highly paid executives, but nowhere near the scale of investment bankers.  And certainly no one at the UAW is getting rich.  They were just negotiating the best deal for their members.

They have been talking on the news today about Citi letting 53,000 people go on to unemployment, and that it is one of the largest layoffs in history.  So, if only one of the Big 3 goes down, it will cause millions of people to loose their jobs, with maybe less than one-tenth of one percent of that deserving it.  Cause it's not just the manufacturer, it's dealers, and independent service centers.  They can't work on cars if they can't get parts.  And parts houses go under as well.  I drive a Chevy Astro.  They stopped making that in 05.  There was a decent number of aftermarket parts available at one time, but not any more.  And that's just one model.  That rule seems to be that there's no sense in making parts for cars that aren't made any more.  And I won't even go into how it will affect the owners of these cars.

[DammitDan]

I agree with Ed on this one, though I don't think it was solely the UAW's greed that caused this fiasco...  GM, Ford and Chrysler were making fat rolls off of each SUV they sold (I heard somewhere that Ford was making ~$14,000 in pretax profits on each Expedition sold?).  When gas prices started to skyrocket 3 years ago, Detroit absolutely refused to look ahead and retool for smaller economy cars.  This is why Toyota has overtaken GM in US vehicle sales for the last 6 months.  Japan can now offer and always has offered the American public what Detroit until recently never even considered.  Innovation will always eventually trump image.

I mean, look at the vehicles that Detroit has put the majority of their innovative engineering into for the last 8 years:

Ford - The new Mustang
Dodge - The new Charger/Magnum (and overpowered HEMI engines in general)
Chrysler - The PT Cruiser?  Wtf...

Versus Japan:

Toyota - The Prius
Honda - The "Fit" and the original mass-production hybrid, the Insight

Lack of foresight was the primary cause of the failure of Detroit, both by the Unions and by Management.  A lot of people will lose their jobs over this, and I feel bad for them.  But to be honest, if the government is going to give a bailout I would rather that money go to the (innocent?) workers who are caught in a hopeless situation than to the corporations who showed no responsible behavior.  But then, where would the handouts stop?

[tramp]

gotta weigh in here
i own both
love my old honda
love my harley
they ride totally different
when my wife is on the back i'd rather have the harley
just because the old honda looses alot of power with a rider on the back

[City Boy]

Oh boy,glad tramp got this back on track.First off,I could care less what others ride,just glad that they do.I have friends who ride HD's who I kibbitz with on Jap vs Harley;we both enjoy a good laugh.I have friends who honestly believe their stock HD's offer "performance",I tend to steer clear of talkin bikes with them!Being one who likes to modify,I have always admired the vast supply of hop up bits offered for HD's.The Motor Company have marketing geniuses on staff.They sell more a lifestyle[real or weekend]than a machine.Harley has seen a vast improvement in engine design,our oil leak jokes no longer apply,but lest we forget this came about not in house,but thanks to Porsche Design.Each to his own,if I had unlimited dough I would have a hot rodded sportster a la XR 750 in my stable!    Rock On

[333]

It's interesting, Tramp, that you've steered us back to the original question.  I regards to Dan's point, isn't that what Harley is guilty of?  If Harley had ever made anything but V-twin cruisers, or kept up with technology, would the Japanese ever have gotten the share of the market that they have?  I'll bet none of you were concerned when Harley convinced the government to put that excise tax on larger than 700cc bikes that were imported back in the mid 80s.

But let's make no mistake about it.  We didn't just buy what they told us to.  We WANTED the big SUV.  We reveled in the largeness of it all.  I still want one.  It was only when gas went through the roof where we woke up and realized that mistake.  As Americans, we haven't always done what was best, but rather done what felt best.

And let's be accurate.  It's not a handout, it's a loan.  To a company that wants to change the way they build stuff.  Unlike Harley, who to this day, still make the same old crap.  What they changed was how we saw them.  Talk about suckers.  They created the "mystique", and we bought it, hook line and sinker.  At least the Big 3 have seen the writing on the wall.  That the future of energy is not oil.

[eldar]

America has done things like this a long time. When WW2 hit, america was so far behind, we had NOTHING on the ground in Pearl that could even remotely hold a candle to the zero. Even the wildcat was almost powerless. America gets complacent and sits on its ass. Then we get all surprised and upset when the world kicks our asses. If we get pissed enough, we do something about it but the getting pissed part seems to have disappeared. Too much emphasis placed on making as much money as possible as cheaply as possible and it is hurting us.

[Demon67]

I suspect both union and management bear the blame but I'm old enough to have driven English Cars (Hillman Minx, Riley 1.5, American Cars, Dodge, Chev Van, GMC pickup, Japanese Cars , Toyota Corona, Nissan, Toyota Corrola, and while both the Americans and the Brits refuse to listen to what the people wanted the Japanese said OK lets try and give them what they want, which is why they are are on top, I also remember when Norton twins used to crack their cylinders Norton said that wasn't possible, the owners had to be abusing them distributor in Ontario at the time was Harry Firth [ a true gentleman] who said that shouldn't happen and took the defective cyl's and issued new one ones and then argued Norton into honouring the warrantee, and Triumph that brought out a new model, a 750 I think, that had an 8 page tech supplement to get rid of handling problems and the final solution was to have the customer ride on the tank, while as Yamaha had engine problems with their 500 and 750's and the next thing you know was a team of engineers and gophers show up at our shop and start tearing down the bikes in question so that they could come up with a solution, that was the difference between the Japanese and the others, that's why they are on top and I don't know about the rest of you, but can you imagine a union type telling management what kind of cars, bikes, airplanes, etc to produce I don't think so.
Bill the demon.

[City Boy]

That reminds me Demon.When I worked for Nelson Motorcycles[John was a close pal of Harry]we sold Snorton Nortons for a time.Upon uncrating a Commando one day,I found the box of bits for assembly missing.In it's place a note."we're only in it for the money boy's."  Rock On