Author Topic: Behind The Curve??  (Read 16735 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2008, 09:52:52 AM »
Yeah City boy and managements feeling that it was good enough for the colonials so we should keep our collective mouths shut and take what our betters gave us, every once in a while over the decades I've gotten a whiff of that attitude coming north of the border too. Interesting! Very interesting'
Bill the demon.

Offline CaféElite

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 808
  • 1975 CB550
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2008, 08:52:16 PM »
Well I have the solution for you boys.. do what I did and get a buell.. Its a great american (except you mister 1125r) bike and you dont have to worry about a bunch of people buying it cause it has HD in its name. It does come w/ some negatives though.. its not as fast as the rocket bikes, it wont get you laid like a HD and it still requires you to work on it all the time. What I just explained a riders bike :D Now here is the good.. its simple so working on its fun, its comfy to ride (doesnt kill your wrists so you old guys can ride it to) and its a FRAKKEN BLAST TO RIDE. I have road a ton of bikes over the last couple years and while some were a great ride I have yet to find one I enjoyed riding more then my lightning.

I do wish I owned a new duc 1098 in white and black though  :-X
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 05:31:27 AM by CaféElite »
CB550's
Kansas City..

Religion is like masturbation, do it at home and keep it to yourself

Offline Terry in Australia

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 33,359
  • So, what do ya wanna talk about today?
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #152 on: November 19, 2008, 12:50:30 AM »
Well I think we're being a bit harsh men, the "union vs non-union" argument is truly, er, arguable, because Japanese car workers are union members too, so that alone can't be the problem...........

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/03/toyota_pays_up.html

I'm guessing that the problem of the big three going broke is due more to the multiple financial problems that the US has suffered this year, the mortgage crisis, (people can't buy cars when they can't afford their mortgages) the massive gas price hikes (people can't buy cars when they can't afford the gas to put in them) and the thousands (millions?) of folk losing their jobs due to the financial meltdown. (people can't buy cars when they can't get credit because they don't have jobs)

Another problem highlighted on "All things Considered" today was the comment that GM (with 20% market share) has 7000 dealerships in the US, and Toyota (also with 20% market share) has only 1700. I'd like to see GM, Ford and Chrysler survive and prosper in the US, so with better management practices, and a little help from the government, (in the form of low interest loans to keep them afloat and tariffs on cheap Asian imports) I can't see why they shouldn't? ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #153 on: November 19, 2008, 07:06:56 AM »
I have to say, I have some reservations about GM's management going forward. For a time, all we heard was "The Volt." Sorry, but I can't see a $45,000 elec. with a 40 mi. range being their salvation. Some think it will come to market costing even more than $45K. It seems like another low-volume, high-margin product. I also wonder if that 40 mi. estimate is only for folks living in Miami or Phoenix. How much range will it have in Mich., Wis., Minn. between November and March?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #154 on: November 19, 2008, 07:56:49 AM »
If the Volt was strictly a plug in, 40 miles does sound real short.  But it is a hybrid.  And the 40 mile figure is while on batteries only, acting like a plug in.  Up until now, hybrids worked like diesel/electric train locomotives.  A gas engine drives a generator, that powers an electric motor to propel the car.  The Volt can go without the gas engine for 40 miles.  And I'd like to point out that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than either Honda or Toyota.

It would seem that the political area has gone away a bit too soon.  The union/non union argument is easily split right down party lines.  But Terry, as I understand it, the Japanese auto manufacturers that have set up shop here in the U.S. are not union.  But, the wages reported on the news lately about UAW members making $70.00/hr are not accurate.  Yesterday, CNN had 2 auto workers on(UAW members), and they put the record straight.  Yes, they make a nice wage.  But $29.00/hr is a far cry from $70.00.  I'm sure that $70.00 figure is total cost of a worker, and anyone that has run a business will tell you that the cost of employing someone is roughly twice the actual wage.  It does seem that the Big 3 do pay way more to provide health care, something that needs looking into.  But the wages paid in union and non union shops in the U.S. are comparable.

Ed, this is an odd change.  I'm usually the one using the "fear mongering" mantra.  But nobody's talking bankruptcy.  But even if that was the case, doesn't that really mean the same thing?  Who would buy a car from a company that has filed for bankruptcy?  Reorganization or not, just the word "bankruptcy" is the kiss of death for a retail oriented company.
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #155 on: November 19, 2008, 08:11:28 AM »
I am aware of the duel propulsion system of the Volt, but I haven't seen anything that describes the performance, or MPG while running on the engine when the batts are down. I'm not a heavy footed driver, but I don't want to get mowed down by an 18-wheeler while trying to enter an interstate on the gas engine. It's hard to get any real facts on the Volt. Most of what I have found so far is fluff and marketing. My perspective is not average though. When I was working both my wife an I commuted well in excess of the 40 miles (she still does) so it would be an issue for us.

GM does have a number of fuel frugal models, but they also have some serious quality issues. Ford seems to have seen the writing on the wall more clearly than GM on a number of issues.

Oh, and we will not likely ever pay $45K for the privilege of commuting either, which is my other point. ;)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 08:18:37 AM by Bob Wessner »
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #156 on: November 19, 2008, 09:37:57 AM »
This information comes from the Jan 09 issue of Hot Rod Magazine. (Which I got yesterday.)

The Volt isn't actually real, yet.  There isn't a production battery for it.  GM is betting that the Lithium-ION battery can be developed and production worthy for the 4th quarter of 2010.
From the article pgs 22-23:
"The advantages of the li-ion include high energy density and light weight; in a package that is g feet long and weighs 375 pounds, the volt's battery pack has a capacity of 16 kilowatt-hours..  With the equivalent of 150 hp and 370 lb-ft on hand, the Volt can do 100MPH-and travel the aforementioned 40 miles before the on board generator kicks on."
So, the on board electric motor can push the car at freeway speeds without much ado.  (So long as you don't put the entire football team and their gear inside.)

Since the generator is powered from a 1.4L inline 4, the Volt should be able to do at least 70-80 (since it isn't charging the internal battery).  The Toyota Prius can do over 100MPH on a 1.5L four engine (not through the electric motors, though.)

In theory, the Volt (stupid name) could well be a concept car I am interested in.

My problem with GM is that since they pretty much shafted me with a crappy Camaro, purposely designed to fail soon and fail often (And they gleefully took my money to do so).  Why should I ever trust them to make a reliable car at any time in the future?
I've got an 84 Toyota Celica with over 130K miles and a 90 Mazda with 140K miles, both as stone reliable as my 72 Ford pickup, and with only routine maintenance.
Why would I trust GM not to screw me again, as they have already demonstrated that reliability is NOT their major concern, only that you keep buying new cars from them on a frequent basis? I want the option to keep the car beyond their warranty period and have a reasonable expectation that the car will still work for the purpose it was intended (without replacing all of it bit by bit).

I don't care if GM does fold up and go away, as they simply don't have a customer first attitude, unless the customer has deep pockets.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #157 on: November 19, 2008, 10:01:27 AM »
See now that is all anecdotal evidence. I have had 2 fords and BOTH have sucked more than any other car. Actually one was a mercury. I had a 97 sable. With GOOD tires I might NOT slide on barely wet pavement. I also dislike having to replace rear swaybar links because they are too flimsy(as was the whole rear end). The rear suspension arms were so thin that a good kick would almost bend them. The engine died in that and threw a rod with less than 100000 miles. The ford excort I have is a model known for blowing head gaskets. It also get poor economy despite cleaning the engine out and cleaning the injectors. It has power NOTHING. Windows and locks are all manual so it carries around no extra weight. It gets about 23 mpg. My heavy weight HHR CHEVY gets better than that while giving more power. The ford has less than 90000 miles and plugs and a/f have just been changed. The fords brakes suck too, work was done on them just a year ago so I suspect poor quality is the fault but it would not surprise me if it is a design fault. It also has poor acceleration.

I have had 2 chevy pickups, both ran great and never had any problems. My first one was 2wheel drive and it never left me stuck anywhere. I made it through places 4x4s got stuck. It also got better mileage than my ford. I had 2 oldsmobile cutlass ceiras. Both were tanks. NOTHING stopped them. I sold one and it is still running and the other I killed the tranny on cause I left the black fluid in it, yet it still did not strand me as I still had 1st.

Should we talk about crap, lets talk about the 1st gen dodge/plymouth neons. Now those are junk.

Point is every bodies experiences with cars will be different. I only have the ford I have now cause it was FREE. I sure never would have paid money for it. gm and ford are about the same on quality when you get down to it. Chrysler sucks since the 80s. Jap cars are best but other asian makers are catching up.

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2008, 10:04:04 AM »
You'd better watch it, Bob.  You could set off a "car brand loyalty" war. ;D ;D ;D

(Edit-too late.  The war started as I was typing)

I won't weigh in too much on that issue.  Only to say that I have only had Chevys in my adult life(occasional other GM), and have only had good service from them.  Since I started buying "new", it's only been Chevy.  And my biggest problem has been the dealers.  I've been through a few.  The first one randomly put a junkyard part on my first Astro, when it was in for a oil change.  I couldn't prove it, so it cost me, but it cost them a customer and a lot of bad words on my part to anyone who will listen.  The second dealer ripped me off on an alternator.  At about 140k, the Astro's alternator failed.  I use the dealer for, among other reasons, for factory parts.  They put a locally rebuild one on(without telling me, except on the receipt, in small print, after the fact) and to add insult to injury, they charged me $50.00 more than the factory one.  I'm still with the third one, time will tell.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 10:09:06 AM by 333 »
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2008, 10:07:36 AM »
TT, thanks for the details on the Volt. Electric as a concept is worth a look, but not at $45,000 as far as I'm concerned, but I share many of your other thoughts re: GM. I owned a Camaro @#@$%, and stupid me, a Fiero also, double @#$%^(slow learner ;D). My wife an I own Honda CRV's, mine is a 2000 and hers a 2002. Both still running strong, use no oil, no leaks and with 130,000+ miles on each and 26 mpg. If Detroit could match that, I would be happy to buy one of their vehicles.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #160 on: November 19, 2008, 10:25:43 AM »
But see detroit CAN match that. Both my ceiras were over 130000 miles. The only thing that failed was an alternator. The tranny was my fault for not changing it but I got the car to run the wheels off of, not stick money into. In that regard, it did perfectly.

I had a pontiac aztek and it did perfectly up to 100,000 miles. Then it had an exhaust leak. That fix was just replacing a gasket.

What year was that camero? How about the fiero? Since the fiero was from the 80s, of course it was junk. NOTHING the "big 3' put out then was much good. You might get lucky but then you might get lucky on a harley of the same era.
people that are old seem to forget how to count and do not realize that most of those issues they had were from the 70 and 80s and a few in the early 90s. I am sure if a person looked, they would find recalls for hondas and toyotas too.

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #161 on: November 19, 2008, 10:28:10 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-11-18-ford-hybrids-toyota_N.htm

It seems to me that Ford has taken a lesson from the Japanese on the hybrids:  let the Japanese spend the money developing and refining the hybrid technology, then copy it, but make it better, and cheaper too.  This strategy is simply the reverse of what the Japanese have been doing for the past 40 years to American car companies.

I wonder how long it will be before the buying public recognizes that Ford's new-car quality has finally surpassed Toyota's too:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/

And that's not just me talking, that's independent researchers who have been pro-Japanese manufacturers for many years.  That legacy of poor quality from Detroit is a thing of the past.

It is a shame that some poor quality issues on cars made 10, 20 or 30 years ago has more impact on sales of cars TODAY than current statistics and research.

If the Volt was strictly a plug in, 40 miles does sound real short.  But it is a hybrid.  And the 40 mile figure is while on batteries only, acting like a plug in.  Up until now, hybrids worked like diesel/electric train locomotives.  A gas engine drives a generator, that powers an electric motor to propel the car.  The Volt can go without the gas engine for 40 miles.  And I'd like to point out that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than either Honda or Toyota.

It would seem that the political area has gone away a bit too soon.  The union/non union argument is easily split right down party lines.  But Terry, as I understand it, the Japanese auto manufacturers that have set up shop here in the U.S. are not union.  But, the wages reported on the news lately about UAW members making $70.00/hr are not accurate.  Yesterday, CNN had 2 auto workers on(UAW members), and they put the record straight.  Yes, they make a nice wage.  But $29.00/hr is a far cry from $70.00.  I'm sure that $70.00 figure is total cost of a worker, and anyone that has run a business will tell you that the cost of employing someone is roughly twice the actual wage.  It does seem that the Big 3 do pay way more to provide health care, something that needs looking into.  But the wages paid in union and non union shops in the U.S. are comparable.

Ed, this is an odd change.  I'm usually the one using the "fear mongering" mantra.  But nobody's talking bankruptcy.  But even if that was the case, doesn't that really mean the same thing?  Who would buy a car from a company that has filed for bankruptcy?  Reorganization or not, just the word "bankruptcy" is the kiss of death for a retail oriented company.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2008, 10:29:52 AM »
I certainly don't want to get into Japan bashing, especially in a forum devoted to Honda motorcycles.  But I have concerns about their cars.  Yes, it does seem that they run well and for a long time.  But you don't see too many old ones out there like you see old American cars.  And while they will protect you in a crash, the cost of repair of that crash is 2 to 3 times that of an American car.  The body shops love that fact.  My son( who has problems with that, so he is on a first name basis with a body shop) has jumped ship year before last and bought a Nissan.  With his last accident, the body shop made the comment that if he had still had his Chevy, the repair would have been half of what it was.

In an attempt to stay close to the original thread issue, I would say this.  If Harley would make something other than V-twin cruisers, maybe the Japanese wouldn't have the share of the market that they have today.  It's been said before, but Harley needs to make an inline 4, some smaller displacement bikes, and something other than cruisers.  I am most comfortable with my feet directly underneath me, not out in front of me, and not behind me.
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #163 on: November 19, 2008, 10:40:49 AM »

It seems to me that Ford has taken a lesson from the Japanese on the hybrids:  let the Japanese spend the money developing and refining the hybrid technology, then copy it, but make it better, and cheaper too.  This strategy is simply the reverse of what the Japanese have been doing for the past 40 years to American car companies.


Ed, are you sitting down?  We are about to, at least come close to agree on something.  In retrospect, it was only a matter of time.

But you think that the Japanese have only done that to the car companies?  The U.S used to rule the television industry.  Now we don't make a single one domestically.  It chaps my cheeks that the U.S. has lost it's way in manufacturing.

 That legacy of poor quality from Detroit is a thing of the past.

It is a shame that some poor quality issues on cars made 10, 20 or 30 years ago has more impact on sales of cars TODAY than current statistics and research.

Here's the shocker, Ed.   "+1"  Yeah, I said it.  And I'll bet I've just brought a tear to Bob's eyes.
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #164 on: November 19, 2008, 11:02:33 AM »
I am on that too 333. US makers have gotten better. The 08 malibu from chevy beat out a toyota in car of the year. I have a co-worker that has one and it is a VERY nice car.

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2008, 12:22:48 PM »
But I don't think that they were all that bad from the start.  Sure, every brand has had some lemon models.  Quality control on some of the Cameros is certainly known about.  The Fiero was a mistake from the start, although they didn't fail right away.  The drive train was from the Chevette!
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2008, 12:26:16 PM »
The drive train was from the Chevette!

Now you tell me. ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Demon67

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2008, 12:37:45 PM »
OK I'm old enough to remember if you wanted good machine tools you bought American but awhile ago the japanese surpassed them and I think it was to same attitude that the Brits had, if it was good
enough for grand paw its good enough and that's what sank them.
Bill the demon.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2008, 01:25:48 PM »
Problem is that in a lot of areas, quality has gone down a long ways from what grandpa used. The idea was to make money. So make cheap crap and it lasts a couple years, you throw it and get a new one. A lot of waste but sure makes them rich.

Offline tortelvis

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 537
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2008, 01:43:48 PM »
For what it's worth I have a Harley as well as two CB350Fs. I have owned mostly Honda or other Jap bikes for over 40 years and just wanted to try a Harley for once. It's ok for what it is, and as I got a killer deal it didn't cost that much either. I just love bikes. I don't care what you ride as long as you ride! I like to ride alone so I don't get into the mentality of some Harley owners. Just live and let live.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2008, 01:46:00 PM »
So it appears the foreign cars are not selling either.
Maybe some price cuts coming in the future.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=1

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #171 on: November 19, 2008, 05:41:29 PM »
My parents bought GM.  They had used Pontiacs in the 50s, New Pontiacs in 60, 61,62, and 64.  I learned to drive on the 64, 389 v8 with a stick shift.  We always had stick shifts up to that point.  When Dad left and took the 64 with him, we had used Fords and Chevy's.  They were all reliable.  I always had Used American cars, 55 Ford, 55 Chevy (Hot rod), 54 Olds, 58 Olds, 57 Plymouth (with a Chrysler 392 Hemi I transplanted into it),  61 Ford Convert, 56 Merc, 61 Chrysler.  When I married we had the 64 1/2 Mustang (Falcon running gear), 71 Mustang, 72 Ford Truck.  All these vehicles had good reliability, with the possible exception of the 64 1/2 Mustang which, for no apparent reason, grenaded its 170ci six on the freeway in the fast lane, stranding my wife.  In 82 we bough a 74 Volvo (our first foreign car) used, from a co-worker that was going back to Japan to live.  After numerous electrical issues and a cracked head on the little anemic 4 cyl Volvo engine, we traded it in on our first New Car, the 84 Toyota Celica, which we still have, and it gets driven everyday.  Yes, it's a bit ragged now and I had to put a clutch in it.  But, if I had to drive to the other coast with it, I wouldn't be worried about it getting me there in back. Same is true for the 72 Ford truck I've had over 30 years, and the 90 Mazda we got from the Mother in law when she died.  I wouldn't trust the 89 Camaro we bought new in 88 on a trip farther than 200 miles.  Something expensive goes wrong with it every 1000-2000 miles on average.  If I had paid someone else to repair that every time it broke, the total cost investment would be triple the purchase price.  Fortunately, we've never needed that car for basic transportation, for which, it is not worthy.
The only car that I've had with worse reliability was the 55 Chevy.  But, that was a hot rod that I beat the living crap out of every single day I drove it.  (You could have replaced the accelerator pedal with an on off switch on that poor abused car.)

I have far more experience with American cars than Japanese makes.  So, as is my way, I did research to find out if my experience was an aberration or indicative of reliability trends.  One interesting source, is Consumer reports.  I bought the 2007 Used Car Buying Guide.
Up front they say that reliability of vehicles has improved substantially from 1980 to 2000.
They do, however have a page listing the most reliable vehicles, and another listing the worst, with a side bar on each page noting those that are especially good bets, and those that are the worst.
Focusing on GM products, 3 actually made the exceptionally good list.  Buick Regal, Chevrolet Prizm, and Pontiac vibe (which is a branded import not actually made my GM).
The rests of the best are Acura (7 models), Honda (9 models), Infiniti (5 Models), Lexus (7 models) Mazda (4 models), Nissan (3 models), Subaru (5 models), Toyota (15 models).  Oh, and the Lincoln Town Car was also on the list, too.

Where GM cars do figure prominently, is in the Especially "Bad Bets" list.  There are NO Toyotas or Hondas on this list.  There are 2 BMWs.  5 Chevrolets, 4 GMC, 3 oldsmobiles, and 4 Pontiacs from GM.  4 Mercedes, 2 Nissans, 5 VWs, 2 Lincolns, 1 infiniti QX56, 2 Jaguars, a Jeep, and a Kia Sedonna, finish up the stinky list.

Let's look at the Chevy cars on the good list, and while I'm surprised, there are some.
Prixm, Tracker, Silverado (2WD), Monte Carlo V6 ('03), Avalanche 1500 '05-'06.

On the bad reliability list are these from Chevrolet.
Astro, Avalanche 1500, 03-04, Avalanche 2500, Aveo, Blazer, Camaro, Cavalier, Cobalt, Colorado (2WD and 4WD), Corvette, Equinox, Express, Impala (V6 and V8), Malibu, Monte Carlo V6 '98, '00-'01, S-10 (4WD), Silverado 1500 (4WD), Silverado 2500 (4WD), Silverado (Turbo Diesel 4WD), Suburban, Suburban 2500, Tahoe, Trailblazer, Uplander, Venture (ext), Venture (reg).

There aren't ANY Toyotas on the bad list. And only the Honda passport on the cars to avoid list (isn't that a rebadged Susuki rodeo?).

I'm not going to list them all, but in total, American made cars take up over half of the entire Avoid list including the GM brand.  The rest are predominantly European cars.  And, a small handful of Asian manufacturers/models.
Even if I admit that GM cars have improved their reliability since the 80's, they still haven't approached what the Japanese top Brands routinely produce.  Perhaps there aren't as many stupid and blind consumers as the American manufacturers were counting on fleecing? I would much prefer to buy an American made car.  But, I can't condone paying extra for incompetence, or charlatans.

Even if you discount my personal experience with the crappy Camaro, Consumer Reports statistical sampling, show that American manufacturers are STILL behind in the quality/reliability to the consumer aspect of product manufacturing.  And, while they SHOULD focus on improving that, if they are going through a penny pinching phase, what are the odds they will have added focus on quality/reliability improvement?

Why aren't we better off without GM?

Cheers,




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 333

  • Time for change
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,558
  • Mail List Member #162 - Call me Stan
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #172 on: November 19, 2008, 06:09:23 PM »
The problem I have with Consumer Reports is that price factors in on the product.  If you pay more for something, it counts against it,  Then if there is a problem that keeps popping up, then it make's the rating worse again.

Then, the problem I have with the "bad" GM list is that I have had 2 models listed, and they have been the most reliable vehicles.  I am still driving my second Astro, with almost 90K.  The first I gave to my son at almost 170K, and while he plowed it into a curb, we sold it to the guy who delivers my newspaper, and it is still running.  My wife is driving an 05 Equinox.  It has less than 40K so far, but no problems.  The mileage sucks, but you expect that with AWD.  We just did a trip from D.C. to Nashville and back, and was pleasantly surprised at almost 25 MPG.
Go metric, every inch of the way!

CB350F0  "Scrouching Tiger"
CT70K0    "Sneezing Poodle"

www.alexandriaseaport.org

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #173 on: November 19, 2008, 06:25:58 PM »
I believe CR about a far as I can lift a dump truck. Half the stuff they say is bull. They test 1 model and make their rating from there. Funny how my chevy pickups were BOTH s-10s and BOTH did great. Not a single issue with either one and I had them while I was younger and certainly was not easy on them. I found the max speed of both on the first day I had them. One of them I used to do brake stands with that would make a dragster proud.
If you want REAL info, go onto a forum such as this and find out the real story.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Behind The Curve??
« Reply #174 on: November 19, 2008, 07:09:31 PM »
Where's an oil thread when you need one? ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.