Topic: Behind The Curve??

[BobbyR]

I work for a Japanese company that has a Motorcycle Division which builds bikes here in the US. The Japanese are extremely good at building things quickly and cost effectively. The assembly line never stops, parts are delivered to each work station for whatever bike is being built. If the bike is intended for non US use, it runs down the same line with the other bikes. This means they do not run all US bikes and all other bikes in groups. A US bike can be in front of German model. Whatever labels lighting wiring and unique features for each bike arrive with that individual bike. This is using American workers.

I belonged to two Unions in my life, one when I stocked shelves in a Supermarket during High School, and I was a Teamster when i drove a Bus to work my way through College. That was 30+ years ago. I am not a Union member, but I have benefited from Unions.

If it were not for the labor movement we would not have the 5 Day 40 hour work week, Workman's compensation and all of our other Labor Laws, which are now being eroded due to a diminished Union presence in the US.

It is a bit unfair to lay all of the Automakers problems at the foot of the Unions. The Union did not design unreliable vehicles, the Unions did not specify substandard parts in their manufacture. What damaged the US Automakers was poor leadership. They had the opinion that if we build it they will buy it. They lost touch with the consumers needs.

When Ross Perot was on the Board of GM, he went out and bought an Oldsmobile from the dealer. The other Execs got hand tweaked cars from the Company. Every morning when they came to work, their cars were taken to a shop and gone over every day by hand picked mechanics. When Ross said his car had this and that problem, they shook their heads since their cars were always perfect.

Having said that, we have 4 cars and 3 of them are American, the fourth is a Volvo since my neighbor is the Dealer. Two of the cars come off lease, and I will replace them with 2 more American cars. At work I drive Japanese cars(of course) and they are OK. The Camrays are OK but the Avalons are real nice.

I expect the market for Harleys will erode and the economy keeps softening. They built the bikes people wanted. I am not sure they really made any mistakes by not going me too into sport bikes, since they have no standing in that market, and to build standing would be costly and confusing. Maybe they are not behind the curve, maybe the curve moved.

   

[333]

I agree with Bobby on all points except one.  I think the US auto market is hurting because of the affiliation with the oil companies.  That whole thing with GMs electric cars is proof enough for me. 
Also,I still think the US cars are tougher.  I'm a Chevy guy.  My son has a Nissan.  He just had an accident.  He rear ended a Ford Windstar mini-van.  The damage to the van was a tear in the plastic bumper cover.  The damage to the Altima was $4000.00!!!  The government rates safety by how well a car's passenger compartment is protected, so that's how the Japanese cars get high ratings.
                                                    Stan

[edbikerii]

harley was roughly 2k and now would be worth maybe 8 or 10k??

Um, no.  A brand spanking new 883 sportster from the dealer MSRPs at $7125.  As I said, I see plenty of them for sale in the local classifieds for $3000 - $4000 with just a few years and a few thousand miles on them.  

I've seen "Big Twins" a couple years old going for $8,000 - $10,000, but never an 883 Sportster.  

[754]

Ed, I think he was talking about the comparison of a 1970 model Sportster vs a now price..  we had been discussing the aprreciation of 70,s bikes

 But I have an apology in order, I am more than willing to take responsibilty for anything I have posted. ..i checked the mag today it is Vintage Motorcycle  and contains a price guide.. and I was Wrong.. the 77 and 778 were listed in #1 (top condition) as 2750 and 3000.00.. I looked at a few other examples and they were  in the ballparks.

First 2 years of Sportsters by the way were 11-14 K.

And yes Harley prices have gone down the last few years, due to the demand finally having been met for the first time in over 2 decades.. I am still waiting for the day ANY manufacturer.. and I do mean any.. sells as many heavyweights (1000cc & over) as HD.. which is what this thread was about.. if they are so bad why do they sell in those numbers..

And to the comment dont buy bikes for investment.. well I only will buy ones that do appreciate or I put enough miles on that it simply will not owe me anything..   I could buy others but why bother putting money into a losing deal..

[techy5025]

The list price for a new cb750 in 1969 was $1,200. I bought mine second hand...two months old...but I have the receipt somewhere for the original sale from the dealer.

Jim

[eldar]

Not true, my bike is much better looking.

Is that why your wife married you?

And yes Harley prices have gone down the last few years, due to the demand finally having been met for the first time in over 2 decades.. I am still waiting for the day ANY manufacturer.. and I do mean any.. sells as many heavyweights (1000cc & over) as HD.. which is what this thread was about.. if they are so bad why do they sell in those numbers..

Remember that for decades, harley was the ONLY large bike. Also remember that biker gangs rode harleys and many of the rich urban bikers where young when they heard of these gangs and how "tough" they were. Now they can afford them and buy them to also feel tough.

I guess sales numbers to me are crap. Look at the number of USED bikes for sale. I can pretty much bet that you will find more harleys (and most of them are like new) for sale than any other bike. There have been times I have looked and found more harleys for same than ALL the other bikes combined. I mean ALL other bikes including dirt bikes. Many people get a harley thinking it was what they needed and they find out that the harley does not fit them.

[eldar]

And to the comment dont buy bikes for investment.. well I only will buy ones that do appreciate or I put enough miles on that it simply will not owe me anything..   I could buy others but why bother putting money into a losing deal..

As stated, you are in riding for the wrong reasons.The bike did not hold a gun to your head to make you buy it. You bought it on your own and if you bought it in hopes it will appreciate, nice pipe dream.

[DammitDan]

Eldar has a point...  It seems almost all the Harleys I see on Craigslist are either less than 3 years old or 10+ years old with less than 15k miles on them

Perhaps the resale price is high simply because the resale rate is high?  After all, why buy a brand new $8000 Sporty when you can get a fair weather ridden 2 year old Sporty for $5000?

[GoatBaSS]

HD reports down in last quarter. The radio program noticed that having cruiser cruiser cruiser cruiser and cruiser was not the greatest idea.

[Steve F]

And yes Harley prices have gone down the last few years, due to the demand finally having been met for the first time in over 2 decades.. I am still waiting for the day ANY manufacturer.. and I do mean any.. sells as many heavyweights (1000cc & over) as HD.. which is what this thread was about.. if they are so bad why do they sell in those numbers..

I think THE ONLY reason harley does so well in sales in the "Heavyweights" is that's all they sell, and people are buying them because they want "image" and can't (or wouldn't) tolerate their friends' ridicule if they were to go out and purchase anything else.  That wouldn't be "cool", would it.

[754]

So are you saying that if other manufacturers quit building midweights their big one would get better?? Like they have been holding out on us??

It almost seems like some are saying there is no other low mile bikes for sale, which I am not really seeing.

Maybe some of you  just got into bikes lately, but its pretty easy to notice that about 85 % of owners are not high milers.

[GoatBaSS]

In the USA bikes are seen as recreational, in the eyes of many. This will change a little as gas becomes more precious. HD was image and market driven 30 years ago, and it seemed to work, but now may be the time to re think the position, and it may be to late...

[BobbyR]

One other problem Harley is having is shared with the Housing market. Harley extended EZ credit to a lot of folks who did not really qualify under the old credit rules. A lot of companies have been burned like that in the past. People with lousy credit will just walk away, they really have nothing to lose since they have nothing.  Repos usually go up for dealer auction and the dealers will not pay top dollar, especially if their unsold inventory is higher than usual. I have gotten 3 emails from a local riders group offering up fairly new HDs for sale. I have ridden with this group a few times and the bike are nice. I think the guys are trying to get out from under the payments.
It would not surprise me to see Leasing of bikes tried in the near future.   

[TwoTired]

Maybe some of you  just got into bikes lately, but its pretty easy to notice that about 85 % of owners are not high milers.

So, what are YOU saying?  That unless someone has as many miles on a bike as you, they can't know what they are talking about?  If so, that's pretty classic Harley snobbish owner attitude, in my experience, and one of the reasons why I find it fun to bash HDers in general.

I've never owned a Harley. I worked on my neighbor's for a while, as he was pretty clueless about machines in general, and HD in particular, despite owning one.  But, I never found the need, or overwhelming desire to own one.  I would have, if the right basket case came up, just 'cause I like doing the machine wrench thing.  But, all the basket cases I found were priced the same as an assembled bike!  Screw that!  I've noticed that Harley owners place far more value on HD than has ever been merited.  It always seemed to me that there was far more mystique and "in crowd" bravado than actual value in a transportation device.

Okay, so I'm cheap.  I've never spent more than $600 on a motorcycle purchase.  This is okay for me.  I'll spend another $1000- $1500, over time, on it to make it right and "mine".    The "entry fee" for HD ownership always seem to hover at $10K minimum.  Any basket case that I found was $5k or more, and in need of, at least, another $5k in parts to make it street-able and semi-reliable.

So, my work buddy who had Kz-440.  Decided to "invest" in a new Harley about the 1990 time frame.  He started out looking at the sportster.  But, even the HD stalwarts sneer at that as being a "Piglet" instead of a real Hog.  More snobbery.  So, he ordered and waited 4-5 months for his $12,000 Harley.  He was in the "club" now.  I thought, "Ok, nice bike, dang that's a lot of money!"  I look at his, then look at my Cb550, and asked, "Is there really $11,000 more bike there?"  I got my answer over the next 3 years.  As, he had the bike in the shop on average 3 months out of each year.  Engine big bearings 3-times, first two times under warranty.  There were other things, too. I think the trans had issues, and there was something about the valve train.  And then the "HD club" guys talked him into cams and other engine "improvements".   He had $20K into that bike after the first year.  Then I stopped trying to keep track of his bike expenditures, which still mounted, as I was already convinced that Harley's were simply a money pit bigger than the egos of Harley owners.  And, THAT is pretty big.  I NEVER had major expenditures on my 550 (or any Honda in my collection, for that matter).  Year after year, mile after mile, it just kept going.  Yes, there were tires, chain, batteries, oil, and the occasional cable, or hose, needing to be replaced.  But, it still kept my sorry butt mobile year after year, for no outlay, compared to a "real biker".

I asked work buddy a couple times about joining some of his motorcycle club outings.  He said it wasn't recommended, as the other members seriously derided anything that wasn't HD.  OK, fine.  I'm not really willing to pay that much money to be certified stupid.  Maybe I just have to crash a few times without a helmet to find the "HD club" a worthwhile addition to my life.  I expect now that HD ownership will just never happen for me.  It just doesn't make sense. 

And, as for being "behind the curve", I don't really know about today's Harleys.  They became sooo uninteresting in the 90s that, I haven't kept up with any innovation they may have offered.  But, if their "innovation" was reliability related, it was only in response to what Honda already ingrained into their machine offerings.  In that regard, they will always be "behind the curve", even if they manage to make one "as reliable" as a Honda.  Maybe I'll rethink when I hear stories of Harleys being "twice as reliable as a Honda".  But, I don't think the HD corporate mentality will look for, or find, any profit in that. HD owners don't care about that, just the "in-clique" aura.

Lastly, on the topic of resale value...
I don't buy a bike to sell it.  I buy it to ride and use it.  Not, to find another sucker to pay more for it than it is worth.  Even so, if I can't still get $1000 for my 550, it won't be a big heartbreak or financial disaster.  Amortize the ownership cost over the 33 years I've owned and used the bike, and it is still far far cheaper per mile than any harley could hope to be.

IMO

[754]

2tired..

What I was saying is that many people buy bikes and dont really put hours on them(did not mention any makes) Many people trade up every few years or buy a second or third or more bike. What I was pointing out is there are always bikes for sale and always casual riders and owners..

 As to getting carried away spending money for goodies  for your bike.. do you think the Goldwing crowd is immune from this, or the sport bikes, or dirtbikers.. or even bicyclists. Some like you and me have figured out we can ride for very low costs.. to each their own..

 And I dont think that Honda wrote the book on reliability.. Beemer for one was building  reliable bikes for decades before Honda came along... and I have yet to see a documented Honda Air cooled get any higher mileage than a  HD touring bike has been documented to have ridden..

[TwoTired]

As to getting carried away spending money for goodies  for your bike.. do you think the Goldwing crowd is immune from this, or the sport bikes, or dirtbikers.. or even bicyclists. Some like you and me have figured out we can ride for very low costs.. to each their own..

Anyone can get carried away with upgrades and mods.  What I object to are added high costs just to keep it functional.

And I dont think that Honda wrote the book on reliability.. Beemer for one was building  reliable bikes for decades before Honda came along... and I have yet to see a documented Honda Air cooled get any higher mileage than a  HD touring bike has been documented to have ridden..

Even if Honda didn't write the book on reliability, they at least read it thoroughly and put it to practice.  I never noticed that being a priority with the HD set.  HD owners are expected to have deep pockets.  They'll get it all back in resale, right?
Not much experience here with BMW, another expensive bike.  But, for many of those historically reliable years, max performance was not part of the reliability equation.  Honda, for one, put the two together nicely.  I remember a top ten most significant motorcycles show where the CB750 only made it to No. three.  The reason given was that it was so boringly reliable and did what it did so well, that it lost some attention due to its stalwart "off course" service.  It actually lost some notability because of that.

As to high mileage.  Do you mean with major repairs or without?  And, what kind of performance capability was maintained till end of life?  With the Honda's high RPM and associated piston speed, barrels, rings, and pistons will wear faster than a slow lumbering big bore twin.  But, the lower ends on HDs needed work far sooner than Honda ever did.  The Evolution was supposed to be a big improvement.  Maybe they eventually got the right recipe.  But, they sure blew it with the first ones introduced.  If not in design, then in execution.  The result was, IMO, a company without the merit of trust, which is, ironically, much like GM, Ford, and Chrysler.  I wish it weren't so, but there it is.

[754]

Some bottom ends last and some dont, I have seen a lot that held together well.. but 3 times in 3 yrs is not usual.

I have had a spun bearing in a Beemer boxer and a few other problems, but I know it is not the norm for them. I have taken out a rod bearing in a CB750 as well, but that is not common.

Honda fours can easily get 50 -100k  (but not all will) on them but so can some of the Harleys.. There is a documented Evo that ran over 400K without any engine work.. but that is IMO not the norm. I do know a few long term V twin owners that  got great engine life, and you do see a lot of older ones still putting on miles.. Quite a few Honda's too and lots of Beemers.

Your last 2 sentences however do not seem to be reflected in their sales figures..

[TwoTired]

I have taken out a rod bearing in a CB750 as well, but that is not common.

Was this a stocker, or a tweaked engine?

Your last 2 sentences however do not seem to be reflected in their sales figures..

Yes.  In a word marketing.  Pet rocks sold well, too.  Then there is the Chia pet, Ginsu Knives, the Vegematic, and the pocket fisherman.

Are motorcycles sold on the Home Shopping Network?   Beautiful lustre. 

Besides, what is popular is certainly not an endorsement for what is technically sound or innovative.  The general public doesn't normally have the time or inclination to objectively evaluate a product.  Style and price dominate, and marketing focuses on the former.  People buy what they are told to buy through advertising as long as it fits the image they wish to project.  Members of this forum excluded, naturally.  
 
Cheers,

[754]

Stock motor internally.

 Your marketing comment, none of your examples have a 100 year track record.. Regardless of wether a bike sells a lot due to image or not.. it first has to get there. H-D and BMW are still selling derivatives of designs that have been produced for over 80 years.. there is a reason for that & it is quite simple.. and only been mentioned once on here so far..

[DammitDan]

TT is right about the cost of "HD initiation"...  vintage HD parts are phenominally more expensive than just about ANY vintage Japanese parts.  My brother in law recently sold a '70s Springer front end (chopped, even) for $2500.  I could buy 2 very nice complete and running CB750s of the same era for that amount of money.

Now you're gonna say that they sold more Jap bikes in the 70s than they sold HD bikes in the 70s, so that means there's gonna be more parts bikes (e.g. parts) available.  But then again, HD wasn't sitting on their hands the whole time and they sold a fair share of bikes themselves...  Honestly, the parts aren't rare enough to factor for them being so ridiculously expensive.

To me it just seems that HD sells the fact that you're riding an expensive bike (much like the Urban Warriors who drive around in their Hummers) and for some reason the aftermarket wants to hold on to that image.  But hey, if you've got the cash, it's your decision what to spend it on. 

But it sure doesn't mean I have to keep my opinion about it to myself... 

[techy5025]

Old parts? How about new parts.

The guy that I mentioned in the neighborhood with the new HD basically threw away a lot of the bike as delivered and proceeded to "upgrade" or add new chrome doodads, lights, bags, exhaust stuff. I asked him what happened to the factory stuff and he said they threw it all away..what? 

There is a weekly local bike ride sponsored by one of the barbecue joints that attracts 95 percent HD's. My observation has been that most of the activity consists of oggleing the latest bike farkles....generally of the chrome variety. A lot of cows died to make all those leather bags and stuff too. Not a lot of oil was wasted making helmets though. 

I guess my conclusion is that not only do you have to ride in on an HD but also it has to be well decked out. Must maintain that image you know. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I have never ridden a HD....just too heavy for me. It just seems that there are a lot better choices if one ignores the image factor.

Jim

[TwoTired]

Your marketing comment, none of your examples have a 100 year track record..

None of my examples had a government subsidy to stay in business, either.

Regardless of wether a bike sells a lot due to image or not.. it first has to get there.

I don't think that is true.  Marketing and advertising sell items well before they are even available.  The auto industry does this prior to each model year change.  The motorcycle industry does this to a lesser extent each spring season.  The Playstation, Xbox, and Nintendo Wii sold millions before they were even available in the marketplace; examples of "it doesn't have to first get there".  It only has to "appear" the get there.  As has been said before, it's the image buy in, moreso than reality.  It certainly doesn't hurt to have your best sales and marketing force be the owners of the product vigorously trying to convince everyone that they weren't hoodwinked by a much more clever marketing juggernaut.  But, there are still some that can recognize that the emperor really has no clothes, possibly because we are not included in the "inner court".

H-D and BMW are still selling derivatives of designs that have been produced for over 80 years..

And this puts them ahead of the curve?

It would seem that your position revolves around who is the best capitalist.  Is that the "curve" you place above all others?  The company that can extract the most dollars from the consumer pocket? 
I don't see how this translates to some technological, or engineering prowess advantage. 

One thing I'm certain of and, I'm sure, even HD proponents can agree on, is that they still, even after over 80 years of trying, cannot make a simple and effective exhaust muffler.   Why else would that be the first thing to hit the trash can within a week of purchase?

[Terry in Australia]

I like Harleys. I owned a Sportster in 1987, it was a great bike and I rode it everywhere but my wife pressured me to sell it when I nearly got snuffed out by a lady who didn't see me riding towards her with my headlight on, and turned in front of me. 

A couple of years later I bought a 1980 Ducati 900SS, thinking that another big twin would be nice, what a mistake that was! It was a piece of shiit. Less than 10,000 miles on the clock (and I had all the service documents etc) and buggared big end and main bearings, hardening on gears buggared, valves and guides buggared, etc etc.

I might buy another Harley, they really are nice to ride, and anything built after 1980 is pretty reliable too. I don't belong to any clubs, and mostly ride on my own, so I'm not too worried about image, and I always thought that the argument that "my Jap 750 is faster than a Harley" was pretty childish, really.

I love motorcycles, so there's room in my garage for all kinds of bikes, and I don't think I need to justify to anyone why I like 'em. Cheers, Terry.    

[Rocking-M]

I wish you hadn't told us about the Duc probs Terry. Mine makes me nervous, but damn I like the
power and feel. I'm in the process of getting my nerve up for valve adjusting. (Mines a 4v 916 engine).

"Ducati, making mechanics of riders since 1946" is my favorite slogan.


Back to Harleys,

[andy750]

There is a documented Evo that ran over 400K without any engine work.. but that is IMO not the norm. I do know a few long term V twin owners that  got great engine life, and you do see a lot of older ones still putting on miles.. Quite a few Honda's too and lots of Beemers.

The only Harley that I could find with that kind of mileage was this one:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/forwood/bike2.shtml

And he does a great job of recording all the engine work he did. I very much doubt YOUR claim that  an Evo ran 400K without any engine work - unless it was on a treadmill  ....however if you have any reference to support YOUR claim please post it otherwise cut the BS:

I have total respect for this HD rider as he, like many others has shown that round the world trips for a sustained period of time (years and 100,000s miles) can be accomplished on ANY bike. BMWs, Hondas, Yamahas, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Enfields, Triumps etc etc have ALL done around the world rides.


cheers
Andy