Topic: Re: Dyno run scheduled, finally!! (POOH! That was no fun) SCANS ADDED!

[scondon]

  My local shop was in the process of getting a new dyno installed last September so I signed up on the waiting list..........and waited. They got it installed end of October and I waited some more. Called a few times and found that the tech I had previously worked with was no longer there, so I talked to the new tech and he said "a couple weeks" and he would call me with an appointment.

   A month and a half later I finally went down and met the new tech face to face. The fact that he didn't know me and that I was requesting to be present and do my own carb/ignition adjustments if necessary, as I had done with the previous tech, I'm sure had something to do with his reluctance to set me up with an appointment. But after meeting in person and realizing that I wasn't some yahoo that would be a liability in the garage we hit it off and I'm set to do some runs this Saturday, Woohoo.

   Now all I've got to do is clean 8,000 miles of crud and mud from the bike, and go through the harness to freshen up the connections that have been underwater this past month(please, enough rain already). Don't want the guy to regret saying yes when he gets a first look at my Mud Bomber, haha.

    Anyway, stoked that this is finally happening and will post results and compare to my other bike with similar components.

[FunJimmy]

I'm looking forward to your post Dyno comments.
What bike are you dynoing?

[scondon]

I'm looking forward to your post Dyno comments.
What bike are you dynoing?

  This bike is the "Sumbich" (to be renamed The Thunder From Down Under when Terry gets finished with mods and paint)

Wiseco 836
Webcam 63a
Mrieck ported head with oversize intake valves,kibblewhite spring, ti retainers,etc..
CR 29mm
APE balanced/lightened crank
Shotpeened,polished,balanced stock F2 rods
Dyna 2000
Dyna 3.0 coils
Kerker exhaust w/large comp. baffle

[Sweep]

I'm very curious too, good luck.

[736cc]

  This bike is the "Sumbich" (to be renamed The Thunder From Down Under when Terry gets finished with mods and paint)

Wiseco 836
Webcam 63a
Mrieck ported head with oversize intake valves,kibblewhite spring, ti retainers,etc..
CR 29mm
APE balanced/lightened crank
Shotpeened,polished,balanced stock F2 rods
Dyna 2000
Dyna 3.0 coils
Kerker exhaust w/large comp. baffle

  Thats a MAJOR CB750 motor. Do us all a favor and make sure you get it on youtube w/ a soundbite...
Does gearing make any difference on a dyno?

[Sam Green Racing]

Answer 736, NO ....... Good luck Sean

Sam.

[joeb]

me to looking foeward to seeing the results  will be at  teh tax man Sat. Will call you in the afternoon.

[MRieck]

 Sean
 Be sure to do the simple stuff like adjust the valves, synch the carbs, lube/adjust chain. Fresh oil will pick up 1 or 2 HP especially if you get it thin on the dyno.

[scondon]

Sean
 Be sure to do the simple stuff like adjust the valves, synch the carbs, lube/adjust chain. Fresh oil will pick up 1 or 2 HP especially if you get it thin on the dyno.

   I'll be up early and tinkering in the garage Saturday morning. Just picked up 4 qts of HP4. Chains getting lubed every day between now and Saturday to make up for all the rain riding.

me to looking foeward to seeing the results  will be at  teh tax man Sat. Will call you in the afternoon.

You betcha, Joe

[andy750]

Good luck Sean! We are waiting patiently for the results!! 

cheers
Andy

[scondon]

  Well I freshened up the bike and went down this morning with the expectations of doing some dyno tuning. Turns out the understanding I THOUGHT we had reached was really no understanding at all. I wasn't able to enter the dyno room after all and in order to make any tuning adjustments they had to pull my bike outside to let me do it in the rain, then charge me to hook it back up to the machine. If they had had a carb tech on hand I would have let him go in there and do it, I mean 10 minutes work at most, but he was somewhere else besides at work. Really a pisser when a shop you really liked changes management/employees.

   But there I was,ready to go, and the other dyno shop in town will NEVER get my business. To his credit, the tech was a really good guy when it came down to discussing my bike and tuning options, and though I had already paid an extra $125 to change my needles in the rain and was NOT going to pay another $125 to change my mains, I ended up with enough good info to finish tuning at home. I also learned that the tech's understanding of your bike really does make a difference in what your #'s end up being.

  First run had peak horsepower of 68 falling to 50 at 9000rpm. Some discussion with the tech about how these CR's respond to cracking the throttle at 2,500rpm(poorly), a drop in needle height and a couple degrees advance on ignition timing(in the rain), And the HP shot up to 78 falling to 75 at 9000rpm. I'm burning at 12/1 AFR and dropping to 11/1 between 5500-6500rpm. Main jets will be changed from 115 to 112's and I may drop the needles to lowest position.

  So I don't get to have any bragging rights with this one but expect final tuning to put HP around 82. The max torque is currently at 55. I'm going to scan the sheets on Monday and dig up my old thread from other bike and post to that for comparison. Although the new sheet won't show peak power that this motor is capable of, there is some neat colored lines to look at and some good tuning info to be gained by comparing the first run(68HP) to the second(78HP).

[heffay]

what is with people always nickel and dime-ing when the customer has already shelled out major bucks?

but hey... those are pretty good numbers... especially the improvement between runs!

[Sweep]

I've never had good experience with the Custodians of the Holy Dynometer.  Nickel and dime city and this is with cars and I'm sure it's all the same.  We bike people are somewhat sentence to a seat of the pants existence.

I assume you've done the 120 main jet?  Gordon has much the same bike as we do and he is using the 115 mains at high elevations and I'm not sure what sparty's using.  You told me what temps you've been having where you live and is it possible that your lean on the main jet?  I'm new to the sohc tuning scene as you well know so plz disregard at whim.  Sean, it also bears noting that I'm 35 degrees advance on setting 4 on my dyno 2000 with no hint of detonation.

I am at sea level.

[scondon]

  Both runs showed I was still a tad rich using 115 main jets(sea level). I'll be trying out the next step down(112's?). The graphs will show better what my overall burn is like from the mains so when I post them on Monday there will be more meat for the discussion

   I advanced my timing back to 35 degrees for the second run. The "rattle" I have tried to tune out really only happens when I try to open the throttle while at 5500rpm in fifth gear. Richening things up has helped get rid of it, but I have obviously gone too rich chasing this one issue. I think it has more to do with the fact that I am a heavy bastard(245lbs, fully geared) and the engine doesn't like to haul me uphill in 5th unless it is in it's optimal power range. I've since just changed my throttle and shifting habits and will retune the carbs for best performance rather than ease of commuting.

[joeb]

Sean my next door nieghbor has a gas air mix machine for the lack of a better word . I could ask him if we can borrow it. Just a thought.

[scondon]

Woohoo! Carb tuning party at Joe's house (as soon as this frickin' rain goes away )

[joeb]

if I see him tommorrow I will ask .

[MRieck]

Sean my next door nieghbor has a gas air mix machine for the lack of a better word . I could ask him if we can borrow it. Just a thought.

That's a nice offer Joe but it really only works at idle. You need the A/F under full load to get a true figure. The bike has 82 in it it seems. I got hugh differences between my 1st through 3rd run with the CB. Get that oil hot and thin and you'll pull another 1/2 to 1/4 HP all day it seems. That is total bull#$%* with the additional set up charge Sean....total and absolute bull#$%*. Unless there are bikes in friggin line you can to do some main or needle changes in what.....Christ...what does it take with CR's.....2 minutes at the most. F'ing bull#$%*. 11/1 at the range you mentioned isn't bad either......I'd take it a little rich bit there.I can go through the thread again but what was the A/F at 9,000. 115 main seems a little lean to me

[MRieck]

PS....Put some iridiums in that thing.

[sparty]

I've never had good experience with the Custodians of the Holy Dynometer.  Nickel and dime city and this is with cars and I'm sure it's all the same.  We bike people are somewhat sentence to a seat of the pants existence.

I assume you've done the 120 main jet?  Gordon has much the same bike as we do and he is using the 115 mains at high elevations and I'm not sure what sparty's using.  You told me what temps you've been having where you live and is it possible that your lean on the main jet?  I'm new to the sohc tuning scene as you well know so plz disregard at whim.  Sean, it also bears noting that I'm 35 degrees advance on setting 4 on my dyno 2000 with no hint of detonation.

I am at sea level.

I just found the thread...

Sean, sorry about your luck at the dyno shop.  I echo Mike's remarks.  Total bull crap.  Those guys treat their customers like dung.  I hope you took off your wet T-shirt and slapped them with it.

Your dyno numbers may be off due to a variety of factors.  #1 being that the tech didn't know how to use the throttle with the CR's - we know there is no "cracking" of the throttle with these carbs from the start, they require a steady roll on up to at least 5000 rpms, then you can goose the throttle once there is a sufficient vacuum.  When I get into the dyno room, I am going to show the tech how to work the throttle. #2 Humidity – how controlled is the dyno environment?  With a dyno in the “wet” and heavy open air, all dyno numbers will be lower.  #3 Temp of the engine and oil – just warming the engine at idle with a few blips of the throttle just doesn’t seem to get these 30 year old engines up to the proper temp for a dyno run.  I know that riding in the rain sucks, but a varied 10 minute ride with a few 9000 pulls will get the temps where they need to be.  #4 Spark plugs – clean and or new with the proper gap.  You want all of that fuel to burn.  #5 Timing – at 35 you should be good (but maybe not great).  It is tough to say without at least three dyno runs at different degree settings.  #6 Load on the rear wheel – did that tech have your bike strapped down hard?  Or the dyno load turned up?  When I had my Speed Triple dynoed years ago the tech showed me how much of a difference it can make.  He ran the bike on the dyno with the “proper” set-up and then gave the ratchet two extra clicks and did another pull – the load was increased and we saw a 4 HP DROP!  Then he programmed the dyno for a light load and combined I had a 7 HP drop.  So, with your numbers you are looking at 82 to 85 HP.

Even running rich, you should see higher HP.

I know I am running rich with my 120 mains, but until I have more miles on the HOT ROD, I'll keep with the 120s.  How does the webcam 63a compare to the megacycle 125/75?

Sparty (Art)

[scondon]

Iridiums are in, 9's  When I post the graphs on Monday you'll get a good look at what transpired over the two runs.

   When I went with my other bike last year we did one run and looked at the results. I was so close on all aspects that I didn't see any need to tweak things further. I talked with the tech in the dyno room and even got to trip the dyno at the end of the run 'cause his helper was busy.

 When I talked to the tech before this last run he told me that he would do three runs for the base price. I took this to mean thet He would do one run, we'd make a change, do another run, make fine tuning, and do a final run. I talked to him and the manager and thought that it was all clear that I would come in for a dyno tuning and that I was fully capable of doing what was needed without being in the way or a liability.

  The three runs turned out to be three consecutive runs without any changes whatsoever. He brings the averages out to me in the waiting area, I talk to him for 10 minutes about what my options are as far as being able to spend 10 minutes with a screwdriver and end up outside in the rain.

   What's funny to me, and you will see this when I post the graphs, is that I did nothing but change a clip position on the needles and advance my ignition two degrees. I also discussed with the tech how the throttle responds with these CR's and how snapping the throttle wide open in 4th gear at 2500 rpm might not be the ideal. I asked him to start the run at 4000rpm if that's the throttle method he needed to use. My max horsepower jumped by 10 and did not fall by 18 after 8500 as it had on the first run. The AFR looks the same after 7000rpm on both the first and second run. The first run fell below the measurable 10/1 ratio between 4500-6000rpm before climbing back to 12/1.

  I have no idea what throttle positions any of it relates to, just have to assume it all pertains to WOT at different rpm ranges. This is really the only reason I want to be present during the runs. To gain information that will help me make future decisions. Their dyno room is so well soundproofed I did not even get to hear it.

   I'll return to my search for a good race shop. Preferably one that doesn't buy into the booze/drugs culture so heavily( if they even exist in the Bay Area, I have been sorely disappointed with some of the places I've checked out. I don't think that highly of my skills, but damn some of these people MUST be high if they expect me to believe some of the crap they lay down at the counter).

  All that said, Tyler at Hayasa Motorbikes in Oakland has spoiled me rotten. He's a good guy and treats me well as a fellow mechanic. All I gotta do is talk him in to installing a dyno

   Oh yeah, happy belated birthday Mike. Hope you did the adult thing and waited for the weekend to throw yerself a real party

[scondon]

SPARTY!  Thanks for chiming in,man. Saved me the trouble of PM'ing you. You were the first person that popped into my mind today, thinking about your post about having a new tech at your shop. At the time I didn't really realize just how much control the tech has over the success of a session. Imagine having your bike shipped to Idaho for dyno and having to give instructions over the phone. Now imagine you're on a cellphone in a subway station and the tech only speaks Slovakian

  Glad to hear that your run is still pending. Thought I had missed it. Really looking forward to hearing how yours goes

[scondon]

 Oh yeah, and thanks for the detailed dyno info Sparty. I couldn't tell you the answer to any of your questions 'cause my bike was in #$%*ing IDAHO!!

   My seat of pants dyno tells me this bike is much faster than the previous one which hit 75bhp. It's hard to get a real good idea of the difference between the 125/65 and 63a cams according to the dyno #'s(see previous rants) but they are very similar in response and power curve with the 125/65 holding a slight edge as far as range that it holds peak power. Unless I was racing I would buy the 63a again 'cause it's a lot cheaper. Next cam purchase will be a 63b or 125/75. I do so love that high rpm range

[sparty]

Sean,

When the spring rolls around I'll be on the dyno.  I speak with the new tech every few weeks when I go down to the shop to see my buddy.  The new tech is learning fast, but most of his work has been with newer FI bikes.  I keep telling him about the CRs and that he needs some practice time.  I also keep telling him that he can use my bike for free to practice with  I pulled him aside about a month ago and said, "look, the old tech (Casey) was going to hook me up.  We were going to do several dyno runs and make changes in between while the bike was ON the dyno.  We were going to do the dyno runs after hours when Casy was working on his race bike and I was going to juice him for the work and effort.  Now, I don't know how tight you are with the owner, but if you can work with me, it would be great."  He said, well I am kind of new here, so I don't know.  Which I took as "No way dude."  But it didn't hurt to try.

Some day, I am going to invest in a motorcycle dyno machine and open a shop, I have been thinking about it seriously these past few months.  I would open the dyno after 4 PM weekdays and all day Saturdays and Sundays - doing only dyno testing.  I know that guys would love those hours.  There are a ton of guys in the area who race at a near by drag track and there is only one cycle dyno open to the public within a 50 mile area.  I told my buddy at my local Honda shop what I was thinking of doing and he said that he would send people my way  Renting a proper garage is the big hold-up.  Rents in this town are crazy $$$.  As long as I made enough $ to cover my costs I would be very happy.

Art

[MRieck]

 You young guys type and answer faster then me........I'll read these additional posts tomorrow. My brief overview lets me say Art is very correct in his observations especially load. there are other "correction" factors that come into play. Art is pretty savvy....I've seen a few things too.