Topic: Re: Dyno run scheduled, finally!! (POOH! That was no fun) SCANS ADDED!

[scondon]

Go to bed old man


   I mean, get plenty of sleep so you can tell me all I need to know in the a.m.

[scondon]

 You get that dyno, Sparty, and I'll be your first customer. Well even find out how fast a 836 madman can do the California-Massachusettes run

[MRieck]

Go to bed old man


   I mean, get plenty of sleep so you can tell me all I need to know in the a.m.

Bastard

[scondon]

Sweet Dreams  

[KeithB]

The "rattle" I have tried to tune out really only happens when I try to open the throttle while at 5500rpm in fifth gear. Richening things up has helped get rid of it

What octane gas are you running?

[Jim F]

  Well I freshened up the bike and went down this morning with the expectations of doing some dyno tuning. Turns out the understanding I THOUGHT we had reached was really no understanding at all. I wasn't able to enter the dyno room after all and in order to make any tuning adjustments they had to pull my bike outside to let me do it in the rain, then charge me to hook it back up to the machine. If they had had a carb tech on hand I would have let him go in there and do it, I mean 10 minutes work at most, but he was somewhere else besides at work. Really a pisser when a shop you really liked changes management/employees.

   But there I was,ready to go, and the other dyno shop in town will NEVER get my business. To his credit, the tech was a really good guy when it came down to discussing my bike and tuning options, and though I had already paid an extra $125 to change my needles in the rain and was NOT going to pay another $125 to change my mains, I ended up with enough good info to finish tuning at home. I also learned that the tech's understanding of your bike really does make a difference in what your #'s end up being.

  First run had peak horsepower of 68 falling to 50 at 9000rpm. Some discussion with the tech about how these CR's respond to cracking the throttle at 2,500rpm(poorly), a drop in needle height and a couple degrees advance on ignition timing(in the rain), And the HP shot up to 78 falling to 75 at 9000rpm. I'm burning at 12/1 AFR and dropping to 11/1 between 5500-6500rpm. Main jets will be changed from 115 to 112's and I may drop the needles to lowest position.

  So I don't get to have any bragging rights with this one but expect final tuning to put HP around 82. The max torque is currently at 55. I'm going to scan the sheets on Monday and dig up my old thread from other bike and post to that for comparison. Although the new sheet won't show peak power that this motor is capable of, there is some neat colored lines to look at and some good tuning info to be gained by comparing the first run(68HP) to the second(78HP).

You need to use my Dyno guy
He charges a flat rate of $50 an hour and you can do what ever tuning you need
until its right
sorry you got ripped a new one with that guy
Jim

[MRieck]

I am at sea level.

I just found the thread...

  I hope you took off your wet T-shirt and slapped them with it.

Sparty (Art)

Well Art....I spit my coffee out after reading that. I had one guy that allowed me to do the actual runs etc. One day I must have done 25 on the CB before my last rebuild. He's gone now so I go to Rick Stetson at Harry's Machined Parts. Rick knows me well and has no problems with doing changes while the bike is on the dyno......when I think about why would you want to make more work for youself strapping/unstrapping etc etc. Anyway the way in which you treat the CR's is important. You can "crack them but you really want the rev's around 4,000. It will still dip but your curve will be smoother. All flatslides (RS's/FCR's) show a dip around 5,500.....I personally think it is the engine getting over the accelerator pump's extra fuel. I also think the CR's run better on the rich side of things. Not much into rich but a little.

[MRieck]

I've never had good experience with the Custodians of the Holy Dynometer.  Nickel and dime city and this is with cars and I'm sure it's all the same.  We bike people are somewhat sentence to a seat of the pants existence.

I assume you've done the 120 main jet?  Gordon has much the same bike as we do and he is using the 115 mains at high elevations and I'm not sure what sparty's using.  You told me what temps you've been having where you live and is it possible that your lean on the main jet?  I'm new to the sohc tuning scene as you well know so plz disregard at whim.  Sean, it also bears noting that I'm 35 degrees advance on setting 4 on my dyno 2000 with no hint of detonation.

I am at sea level.

I just found the thread...

Sean, sorry about your luck at the dyno shop.  I echo Mike's remarks.  Total bull crap.  Those guys treat their customers like dung.  I hope you took off your wet T-shirt and slapped them with it.

Your dyno numbers may be off due to a variety of factors.  #1 being that the tech didn't know how to use the throttle with the CR's - we know there is no "cracking" of the throttle with these carbs from the start, they require a steady roll on up to at least 5000 rpms, then you can goose the throttle once there is a sufficient vacuum.  When I get into the dyno room, I am going to show the tech how to work the throttle. #2 Humidity – how controlled is the dyno environment?  With a dyno in the “wet” and heavy open air, all dyno numbers will be lower.  #3 Temp of the engine and oil – just warming the engine at idle with a few blips of the throttle just doesn’t seem to get these 30 year old engines up to the proper temp for a dyno run.  I know that riding in the rain sucks, but a varied 10 minute ride with a few 9000 pulls will get the temps where they need to be.  #4 Spark plugs – clean and or new with the proper gap.  You want all of that fuel to burn.  #5 Timing – at 35 you should be good (but maybe not great).  It is tough to say without at least three dyno runs at different degree settings.  #6 Load on the rear wheel – did that tech have your bike strapped down hard?  Or the dyno load turned up?  When I had my Speed Triple dynoed years ago the tech showed me how much of a difference it can make.  He ran the bike on the dyno with the “proper” set-up and then gave the ratchet two extra clicks and did another pull – the load was increased and we saw a 4 HP DROP!  Then he programmed the dyno for a light load and combined I had a 7 HP drop.  So, with your numbers you are looking at 82 to 85 HP.

Even running rich, you should see higher HP.

I know I am running rich with my 120 mains, but until I have more miles on the HOT ROD, I'll keep with the 120s.  How does the webcam 63a compare to the megacycle 125/75?

Sparty (Art)

Nice post Art....it says it all. I've found 120's to be about it for this engines though I run a 125. That 125-75 has more lift and maybe a bit less duration if I remember correctly Art. That 75 is an all time favorite of mine.

[Sweep]

I hope I didn't make a mistake going for the 41a in my motor, I seem to be the odd man out with the cam.

[scondon]

The "rattle" I have tried to tune out really only happens when I try to open the throttle while at 5500rpm in fifth gear. Richening things up has helped get rid of it

What octane gas are you running?

  91 octane. All engine and cr carb questions/answers related to this bike are in this thread

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=26299.0

I also think the CR's run better on the rich side of things. Not much into rich but a little.

  Then you will probably like the AFR graph when I post it tomorrow

   I usually try to gain as much info as possible, even from bad situations. I tend to digest info slowly and by this morning am pretty agreed that I will no longer frequent that shop for any reason. Shame 'cause I know and ride with a few of the regulars and the shop is a pretty sweet concept( cafe, tattos, gear, Speed TV parties, etc..) but to me it is still the basics, can you do the work and how do you treat your customers. I do all my own work so only need the occasional dyno, parts and gear and though they have some nice stuff and a few helpful,friendly staff they are overpriced and underdeliver. bottom line, my opinion. RIP Godspeed.

   On the really plus side of things, I learned more about dyno'ing by posting this rant than if it had been a success

[MRieck]

 Sean
 Try 87 regular when you do another run.

[scondon]

I hope I didn't make a mistake going for the 41a in my motor, I seem to be the odd man out with the cam.

 A tad less lift and a smidge less duration than the cam I'm using. If it supplies you with good "grin factor" when you twist the throttle then it is a good choice. Probably perfect choice for congested New York Area as I suspect you might have a bit more power available at lower rpm's instead of all up top.

Sean
 Try 87 regular when you do another run.

  explain please 

Anyone else dealing with a super slow server response?

[Sweep]

Anyone else dealing with a super slow server response?

God yes.

[Sweep]

I hope I didn't make a mistake going for the 41a in my motor, I seem to be the odd man out with the cam.

 A tad less lift and a smidge less duration than the cam I'm using. If it supplies you with good "grin factor" when you twist the throttle then it is a good choice. Probably perfect choice for congested New York Area as I suspect you might have a bit more power available at lower rpm's instead of all up top.

Sean
 Try 87 regular when you do another run.

  explain please 

Anyone else dealing with a super slow server response?

Yes, I've been having lots of problems accessing the site.

I don't live in a congested area at all, it's actually almost rural during the winter but gets some beach crowding during the summer.

I also have access to Sunoco Ultra 94.

[Patrick]

The server is very slow, when I can access the site at all. I've had a lot of trouble getting and and it requires me to sign in again when I do get on. I used to never get signed off.

[KeithB]

Scondon..I see you are in the US so I imagine that 94 octane pump gas is not available?
Sunoco has 94 in Canada but I'm not sure about the US.
Just curious if the "rattling" would go away with the 94.
Sounds like you have it well sorted!

[Gordon]

Sean
 Try 87 regular when you do another run.

  explain please 

What compression ratio is the engine running?

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Sean, well I was away all last week working at an Air Force base (and am going back on Wednesday) but the EBay tank has arrived from Queensland safe and sound, and looks pretty good. It's "Airing" in my garage with the cap off to dissipate the fumes before I start "a cutting and a hacking", ha ha!

My new APE crank should be in the air by now, so when it arrives I'm gonna attempt to install it without removing the cylinders and head, but I'll have to drop my 125/75 cam out to do so, so I'm thinking about trying a nice old Andrews "K" grind cam that I've got in the garage, the specs appear to be similar to the 125/65 and I'd prefer the better low and mid-range torque.

I'm still having problems with my 29mm CR's, what is the standard main jet size, (I could pull one out, but I'm lazy) and "recommended" needle position? At "full wail" my engine is scary fast, so I'm looking forward to the lightened and balanced crank, and if the Andrews cam doesn't work for me, I'll chuck the 125/75 back in. Cheers, Terry.

[scondon]

We should start a new "lazy bastard" forum, Terry

   Those jets are easy as heck to get to as are the needles. Seems the average settings are 120 mains, needle clip one below middle(3rd from top). I'm currently running 115 mains.

    I do have clubmans that hit the tank so will PM ya about "cut and hack" options

 Here's the scans of the two different runs, the operater ran each one three times so there are three overlapping colored lines for AFR,torque and BHP. Total of three runs per scan.


First run, from 2500rpm, 4th gear, whack open throttle



Second run, needle lowered two clips, from 4500rpm, 4th gear, whack open throttle

[Sam Green Racing]

Sounds like you got a raw deal there Sean   time to look for a new dyno shop.
When we did Chrises bike, we were on for about 5 hours and it only cost $300. Even if we had been on longer that would have still been the same.
That place should be named to prevent anyone else booking in there.

Sam.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

DYNO DYNO DYNO DYNO

Sean, pick　目ウp亜tてぇあいｒぽｒｔ　(damn japanese keyboard) me up at the airport so I can ride it. flight下ts dammit gets in SFO at 11:18am from Osaka.

Where the hell have you guys been for the last 21 days?! Oh hell that was me. Anyway I got染め some great manta ray, sharks, and whale shark diving videos to somehow post once I get home.

Jerry

[Terry in Australia]

DYNO DYNO DYNO DYNO

Sean, pick　目ウp亜tてぇあいｒぽｒｔ　(damn japanese keyboard) me up at the airport so I can ride it. flight下ts dammit gets in SFO at 11:18am from Osaka.

Where the hell have you guys been for the last 21 days?! Oh hell that was me. Anyway I got染め some great manta ray, sharks, and whale shark diving videos to somehow post once I get home.

Jerry

Jerry's home movies, woohoo! I'm looking forward to that! (and getting my 'rhoids lanced...............) 

[scondon]

  After sending a couple emails I've been offered store credit for one of the runs($125) with the explanation that they just don't work on my kind of bike. A year and a half ago they did my other bike, no problem. Really don't want credit for something I don't need so I'll go down and talk to the GM tomorrow and see if they will refund the price of one run.

   I would have been much better off if they had just told me 4 months ago that they don't do old bikes. I did get SOME info from one of the runs so am not out to get a FULL refund, just want them to take some responsibility for wasting my time.

Keep ya posted.