Topic: 1980 CB650c Rest-o by a crabby "old-timer"

[Thor's Hammer!]

Wow...what an interesting thread!  I just read about 40% of it, and I think it's awesome how well you rose to each challenge with your bike Kit.  It shows a great deal of intestinal fortitude.  I hope I can be as patient and determined as you've been when I get deeper into my own project.

Will be later to read the rest of the story soon

BTW, good luck with the springs, hope it turns out the way you want this time around.  I need to do mine on my ZRX and my CB750 but haven't yet committed to it (yes, I am sometimes lazy).

[paulages]

kit, those springs were really saggy and confirms what we already knew. they should poke out the top of the forks and make it a little difficult to get the fork caps back on. in my opinion, you should put 15 weight fork oil in there, if not 20W. i like bel-ray. good work.

[Hush]

Yep my springs have to be pushed down before I can get the caps anywhere near into the threaded part.
I'm quite surprised at the difference in the two spring lengths!
Surely even wear and tear wouldn't compress the old springs like that?

[Pinhead]

Perhaps they were cut/modified by the PO for a shorter and/or softer ride?

[Hush]

I guess we will have to wait for Kit to get mobile again to see what effect it has on the handling.

[razor02097]

Perhaps they were cut/modified by the PO for a shorter and/or softer ride?

Not likely.  My springs where the same.  Along with the trouble getting the progressive springs in.  I didn't have as much trouble cause I took my forks off the bike to replace the seals and dust covers.


Kit those progressive springs will "break in".  I was worried cause the front felt like it was too stiff then after a while I got better spring action.  I also use 10 wt in the forks.

[Frankenkit]

I also want to verify...
I may have been having a crisis of understanding when it came to the prog. suspension directions.  5.5" of fork oil is their max suggested amount. That's well and good, but it almost seems like they say the fluid should be 5.5" from the top of the tubes?  Am I confused in a horrible way here, or does it sound like I really don't have enough oil in my forks?  At this point would it be better for me to just unscrew the #$%^& caps again, unscrew the drain bolt, empty the forks, and just put in more oil?

[mystic_1]

I believe that when the spec is given as "inches from the top of the tube" this means with the forks assembled but without the caps or springs, and with the upper fully collapsed into the lower.  I've never liked the idea of measuring this way and have always gone with the "add X ounces" (or cc) method.

mystic_1

[manjisann]

+1 to what mystic_1 said. I've always just measured out the required amount and squirted it in. I'm pretty sure that 5.5in from the top would be some stiff arse forks, and thats assuming you didn't hit something at speed and blow the seals out. Thats just my opinion though.

Brandon

[razor02097]

+2 for mystic_1

[Frankenkit]

so should I just ride as-is and see how the damping and spring action has changed?  I can't say I lost an appreciable amount of oil when changing the springs, just what clung to the old springs themselves and dripped.  10cc at the most out of each tube. ...or would it be better to just drain and refill with the (I think) 170cc specified?

[coldright]

I think that there are wet amounts and dry amounts... probably a difference of about 10mls.  If you have 170mls spec. for dry, go with a little less when just draining the fluid.  What weight did you decide on?  I put the 15w in mine after talking with Paul. 

[Frankenkit]

I think I'll go with 15w, but I'm not dead sure yet because of the relative weights of the bike, myself, and the stiffness of the brand new springs.  If 10w is heavier than the ATF Honda specifies, I'd think I'd be ok with that, too, but Paul's recommendations deserve great respect in my book... I just don't want to make them too stiff, either.

The spec for my forks is 170 for dry and 150 draining, so that's about right on. 

[Frankenkit]

Today is just... one of those days.
Was going to ride to work with Mickey, but while switching out the leaky gasket with one from Samson, we notice the thread we helicoiled was kinda effed up.  Somehow the leading edge of the helicoil had started pulling out and up, so it wrecked the bolt that went into it, too. Grr.
Pulled a bolt from Samson.  MX went up to get ready for work, and I  pulled the helicoil out, 'freshened up' the threads, and ran a 2nd helicoil, which went in great, and would have worked had the tang snapped off, instead of trying to take the bottom two spirals with it.  Yanked that helicoil.  Freshened up the threads.  MX left for work without me.   Ran the third helicoil.  It went in beautifully.  Tang snapped off beautifully. Put everything together. Got ready for a ride. Went out on a ride and totally enjoyed the new fork springs.  Might be a little pogo-ish, but I'm just happy it doesn't dive anymore when I hit the brakes.

Rode all over the goddess's creation.

Came home.  Pondered leaving the bike running in neutral while I unlocked the garage and opened the door.  Figured what the hell, the charging's fixed.  I charge at 1500.  I might as well shut 'er down and open the door.  I do.
I hop on the bike to start it again and...
The same GOD DAMN #$%*ING STARTING PROBLEM AGAIN. 
SLOW SLOW SLOW turning.
But, by the grace of God I get the damn thing started.
...then it quits on me just as I get my front wheel up into the garage (there's a ramp incline up into it) so there's no way in hell I can walk it in.

Great.

Assuming for whatever reason that it'll eventually start, I hit the starter button a few times, and it humors me with a couple quick turns before running way down again.

I try for 15 minutes to bump start it.  No dice, batman.  I run the damn thing down the long hill that is our street.  No starty.  It'd kinda sound like it'd start on one or two cylinders, but then nothing again.

So I got to the bottom and ran out of free parking spots.  I hoped my previously sprained knee was braced well enough and pushed the heavy damn bike-shaped paperweight back up to a parking spot where she's still sitting, cooling off. I'll give 'er an hour and try again, I guess.  That used to work.

I'm just at wit's end.  I can't name a single part in that whole starting system that hasn't been replaced and/or cleaned.  Could I have busted new components?  WTF?  When I eventually get it back into the garage, I'm going to replace the new LED bulbs in the back with the old incandescents because even though that's not likely to be 'it' that's the only thing I've changed in the entire electrical system since the bike was running and starting perfectly.

I'm at wits end here, this is #$%*ed up. What the hell.

[manjisann]

That royally stinks. I'm just going out on a limb, is it at all possible one or some of the plug caps vibrated loose from either the plugs or wire side??

Good luck!!

Brandon

[Frankenkit]

dunno.
Got the bugger in the garage.  It was embarrassing.  Our neighbor was kind enough to follow me with his truck in case I needed his jumper cables.  I put the key in, neutral, gas on, and she starts right up, not a blink of hesitation.


The throttle was really touchy and weird, though, which I'm attributing to the throttle-side hand grip getting mashed into the control pod with the force of my gripping it and pushing the bike uphill. 

Got parked, shut the bike down. 
Had a thought. Started the bike again.  It started sorta slow, again.  Put the multimeter on the charger pigtail I'm glad I didn't remove. 

It showed 13v at 1500. 

I let it idle there around 1500 for awhile, until it started running rough.  I realized I'd turned the gas off.  Turned it back on, got it idling smoothly.  Charge starts dropping.  12.98.  12.96...

Weird.  I work the throttle to get it going a little bit more, hunt down the battery tender I thought I'd be able to retire...

I come back, charge is at 11.4.... 11.45...11.4...

wtf?  I pull the throttle up to 3k where it should start charging the battery, at least in theory.  12... 12.1....12.08...

and then let it go back to idle.
11.45...11.48...11.46...

It was too hot yet for me to take off the alternator cover (requires taking off the left side engine cover etc) but it looks like that's what I'm going to have to do.  I'm wondering what the heck is going on here.  Like I said, the only thing I've *touched* electrically since the bike was 100% reliable was the lightbulbs in the rear and I highly doubt that *those* could do *this*.   

[Hush]

Hi Kit, sorry to hear you are having deja vous.
Although I have cured my charging problems on my 650 (still trys to empty the water from the battery if I don't watch it?) I still use my little battery tender regularly, I alternate it between my partners GSX400L and my sons CBR400RR so it's always on one bike or another.
I just don't totally trust charging systems anymore.
But I thought with all the new bits on D she would behave better, yes I'd try going back to the standard rear bulbs just to see if that is the problem, maybe you shorted something when you fitted the leds?
Just a question, are you sure it's not gas related and the battery was run down by your many attempts to start it?   Just thinking out loud.

[Frankenkit]

I know the stop-run-stop switch was in the right place, but it mighta been skewed or not clicked in correctly, I suppose.  Probably flooded it after awhile, though the voltage should've started it initially (but obviously not if the S-R-S switch was skewed...)

the weird charging thing it was doing after a bit (from 13v down to 11.5 at 1500rpms) makes me wonder if it's shorting somewhere.  I'll start picking at it tomorrow or the next day.

[Frankenkit]

AAAAaahahhhhhhhmmm...

I should probably check battery electrolyte levels.  If the battery charges at 14.7v (theoretically) max due to the OMP reg/rect I suppose it's possible I boiled some of the fluid out.

[paulages]

Might be a little pogo-ish, but I'm just happy it doesn't dive anymore when I hit the brakes.

now you have springs... you just need stiffer damping. think of it this way: the springs keep the wheel on the road (and the forks from diving), and the dampers slow down the process. otherwise, the spring would just keep bouncing (or pogoing) until it ran out of energy.

[Frankenkit]

ah indeed.  I'm glad it's coming up a little faster/better than it was before.  Kinda creepy braking at a stop light and being able to have your feet down comfortably before the front end has come 'back up' from a deep dive.

Paul, any suggestions on the starting/charging dejavous?

[paulages]

ah indeed.  I'm glad it's coming up a little faster/better than it was before.  Kinda creepy braking at a stop light and being able to have your feet down comfortably before the front end has come 'back up' from a deep dive.

Paul, any suggestions on the starting/charging dejavous?

just for #$%*s and giggles: when it is in its not-charging state, take a really thin feeler gauge (.002" or smaller) and touch it to the outside of the stator housing with the ignition on. if the field coil is exciting, the feeler will stick when you try to pull it away. i'll read back through your posts and think about it, but this will at least tell you for sure that the problem isn't with your stator. having had it rewound, i doubt that's it anyway, but the short could be to the field coil.

[Frankenkit]

Bike needs to be on hold while I take care of school and work stuff today, but tomorrow I'm going to start delving into all this again...

[manjisann]

accursed school, always interupting the fun bits of life. 

Brandon

[Frankenkit]

eh, actually not too upset about being able to step away from this for a while.   I'm going to start with the simple stuff- "did I pinch any wires putting the seat and tank on" then go to the battery- "is the battery really low on electrolyte?" then start looking into the alternator's output.  *sigh* I was just so happy to be "done" with this charging crap.