Author Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things  (Read 166505 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2009, 09:41:48 pm »
There's probably some drawback, like less voltage or something. I wonder if you could increase the output by increasing the input?
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline bucky katt

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,564
  • i am a pastafarian!
    • facebook
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #151 on: October 11, 2009, 10:25:54 am »
the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline 750essess

  • Orleans Cycle Repair & Resto
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #152 on: October 11, 2009, 11:58:21 am »
Im running a completely new custom harness with new connectors etc, solid state reg/rec, no turnsignals, halogen head and stock tail. Led tail would probably help just dont think it would be enough. Definitely need more juice to be able to run with headlight on all the time. Making an adapter to put on a newer rotor seems the best route along with modifying the cover for the matching stator (eyeballin' it, it seems possible to fit the stator in the cover but haven't attempted it yet) Wish I had a cnc lathe.
Orleans Cycle Repair and Restoration
76CB750F
69Z50
XR650L

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2009, 03:46:27 pm »
the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

I am considering using the Cycle x alternator and led's, i like the idea of less weight also not running the starter but my only hesitation is kicking a 1000cc Honda every time i want to go for a ride. With 10.5 to 1 compression, would the 1000cc be any harder to kick than the 750.?

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2009, 08:37:25 pm »
the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.
I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #155 on: October 11, 2009, 09:49:20 pm »
I run manual equipment, I doubt it is really worth the setup cost to make the adaptor on a CNC... unless you had exact mesurements of the tapers
 Pretty easy on a manual, a few tricks I will explain if/when you are ready.
 Basic process;
 setup female taper that fits on crank, easy to get angle if you know the tricks.
 Turn female to fit stock crank, or test plug shaft, made to fit rotor, full engagement, cut a 2nd or 3rd is good idea.
 When it is done and fitting to your sample crank, or stuck if it real close, remove from lathe, cut or part off.
 Now mount crank (will need steady)in lathe, or test plug shaft, snout to tailstock, taper adaptor blank on. Now set up your 2nd taper, and fit to rotor you want to use.. pay attention to how far in you want rotor to sit... done..

 Should take about 1 to 1.5 hrs.... if you know how to use a lathe..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #156 on: October 11, 2009, 10:08:28 pm »
the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.
I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.
I thought it was common knowledge on here that his alternator conversion was kick only, i think it says it on his site as well...

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline 750essess

  • Orleans Cycle Repair & Resto
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2009, 05:05:55 am »
I run manual equipment, I doubt it is really worth the setup cost to make the adaptor on a CNC... unless you had exact mesurements of the tapers
 Pretty easy on a manual, a few tricks I will explain if/when you are ready.
 Basic process;
 setup female taper that fits on crank, easy to get angle if you know the tricks.
 Turn female to fit stock crank, or test plug shaft, made to fit rotor, full engagement, cut a 2nd or 3rd is good idea.
 When it is done and fitting to your sample crank, or stuck if it real close, remove from lathe, cut or part off.
 Now mount crank (will need steady)in lathe, or test plug shaft, snout to tailstock, taper adaptor blank on. Now set up your 2nd taper, and fit to rotor you want to use.. pay attention to how far in you want rotor to sit... done..

 Should take about 1 to 1.5 hrs.... if you know how to use a lathe..

Yeah sounds easy :D I dont have any kind of lathe though. Also the new rotor needs to be modified for the stater clutch to mount, forgot about that. I have a local place that can do all this work, I just haven't got to it yet. If you get around to doing this, I would be interested in buying . The VFR800 parts seem best to start with since they are higher output. I have a VFR800 rotor and stator and extra starter clutch and alt cover I could send to u if u want. There seems to be a demand for this type of thing. Also would have to use the vfr800 reg/rec or some kind of universal one. It looks to me ( I could be wrong) that the cycle x is a cb350 or similar alternator and would not be higher output than the stock one.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 05:08:00 am by 750essess »
Orleans Cycle Repair and Restoration
76CB750F
69Z50
XR650L

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2009, 09:40:25 am »
I am a long ways from you and shipping across the border can be a hassle and add to costs.
 I think we can probably get someone in the US to try it, maybe Hondaman..
 I think the tapers are often the same, just larger in diameter, but doing it the way I described and checking fit/offset means turning it around.

 I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

 I have a buddy who is well versed in electrical matters, I suggested we build a test fixture to actually measure the output, if I got him on board, we could try this out..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Laminar

  • Retsam
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,632
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2009, 01:32:36 pm »
I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

IIRC I measured five rotations of the Nighthawk 550's alternator to four rotations of the crank. Also, output is worthless until 2500 rpm, so at idle my light is super dim and my horn doesn't work.

Offline 750essess

  • Orleans Cycle Repair & Resto
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2009, 11:21:09 am »
I am a long ways from you and shipping across the border can be a hassle and add to costs.
 I think we can probably get someone in the US to try it, maybe Hondaman..
 I think the tapers are often the same, just larger in diameter, but doing it the way I described and checking fit/offset means turning it around.

 I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

 I have a buddy who is well versed in electrical matters, I suggested we build a test fixture to actually measure the output, if I got him on board, we could try this out..

Ok I'll get my local guy to do it sometime this winter. The taper looks the same diameter is just larger. I can just hand him all the parts and say make it fit. I had a cbx for a while and I remember it not charging that well either. Just looked up the power output of vfr alt and its 325w at 3500rpm, thats 27 amps at 12v. The stock is 120 w at 5000rpm or 10 amp at 12v, 2.7 times more power!!! Also read that vfr regulators commonly fail but electrosport has an upgraded one for 99 bucks.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 11:23:31 am by 750essess »
Orleans Cycle Repair and Restoration
76CB750F
69Z50
XR650L

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2009, 10:41:17 pm »
the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.
I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.
I thought it was common knowledge on here that his alternator conversion was kick only, i think it says it on his site as well...

Mick
I believe it is a misconception.
Quote
         "NEW" Cycle X  charging system
* Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )
"Allows Battery operation..." If you have a battery then what is stopping you from using the starter?
Quote
* Crankshaft oil block-off sleeve ( Kick only )
I believe he includes parts to convert to kick only, not that it makes you go kick only.



There is also the exposed charging system, claimed to be 16 amps.
Quote
Alternator block off plate with exposed charging system

A cafe charging system 1.JPG (223317 bytes)A cafe charging system 2.JPG (226413 bytes)Sample of our exposed charging system.

charge system for sight.JPG (333338 bytes)  Getting closer to the finish line

We like this system for a few reasons.
The Cycle X charging system is great.
The throttle response is instant.
16 amp versus OEM 13 amp output.
The system is thinner than the OEM system ( for you road racer people)
And my favorite:
The exposed alternator looks cool.

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:44:24 pm by MJL »
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2009, 10:57:10 pm »
From their site.
Quote
* Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )
* Rotor weighs only 1.640 lb's for high rev potential
* 14 amp system
* Kick only ( who needs a button anyway )
* Complete system weighs over 8 lbs less than a OEM system.

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2009, 01:55:33 pm »
Yes. Read the first line of your quote, and tell me why, if it can be used with a battery, it can't be used with a starter?
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2009, 04:39:15 pm »
Yes. Read the first line of your quote, and tell me why, if it can be used with a battery, it can't be used with a starter?

Its because to fit their charging system you have to remove the starter gear that drives the starter. I am not sure why it had to be made this way but i am sure there is a reason.

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2009, 08:37:47 am »
Whatever rotating element they used would have to ;
 
 Have provision to MOUNT the starter sprag assembly

 Have enough STRENGTH to be able to use said assembly.



 I am thinking they were going for lighter rotating mass, maybe did not use steel for the rotor (too heavy)..
 besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

deuce_454

  • Guest
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2009, 09:12:00 am »
besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know ;)

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2009, 10:01:20 am »
Oh.. hey forgot about that, I was adressing the question of why the lightweight rotor probably does not use electric start..

 But for the track, you could use roller starting.. ;D
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #168 on: October 16, 2009, 01:41:37 pm »
Whatever rotating element they used would have to ;
 
 Have provision to MOUNT the starter sprag assembly

 Have enough STRENGTH to be able to use said assembly.



 I am thinking they were going for lighter rotating mass, maybe did not use steel for the rotor (too heavy)..
 besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....
I spoke with Ken today, and he explained to me what no one else has so far. Apparently the starter sprag is on the alternator itself, and to make his single phase alternator with a sprag would be cost prohibitive. "...no one would buy it." 

I also asked him about what could be done to get more amperage out of the stock alternator, and he had no idea. I have a spare motor that I will pull the alternator from and take it to a shop to see about having it rewound for more power.   Just how many amps do we need? Is 20 good?
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #169 on: October 16, 2009, 02:43:20 pm »
besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know ;)

There are kick start dirt bikes with injection now so maybe this isn't that much of a problem, how many rpm's would a Honda do when kicking...anyone know?

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2009, 04:46:20 pm »
besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know ;)

Hi Deuce,i looked into this "kick start" subject and found that ,
Quote
The kickstarter must be able to spin the engine at least three or four hundred RPM.

So if this is the case then there will be no problems kick starting an injected Honda. I will drop in the link that i found this in.
http://www.dansmc.com/kickstarters.htm     Its down near the bottom..

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2009, 08:42:41 pm »
Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element.. ;D
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2009, 08:52:38 pm »
Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element.. ;D

Yes i know that, what i was trying to say is that the kick starter kicks the engine well over the 50 rpm needed for the injection to work and start the bike. So the fuel injection should work with a kick only bike. I will keep reading and see what else i can find... ;)

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline MJL

  • Don't listen to me, I'm no
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,162
  • Oh hell, what's one more bike?
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #173 on: October 18, 2009, 11:33:57 pm »
Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element.. ;D
You are the first one to post up why it is kick only, everyone else just quotes the website. So, not knowing, I called Ken.  Then I read your post.
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things
« Reply #174 on: October 19, 2009, 02:47:12 am »
Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element.. ;D
You are the first one to post up why it is kick only, everyone else just quotes the website. So, not knowing, I called Ken.  Then I read your post.
Interesting, as i understood it,  you just wanted to know if it worked with electric start..?

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.