Author Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things (Read 167709 times)

Pinhead · « **Reply #425 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:47:54 PM »

Quote from: Syscrush on August 23, 2011, 11:19:51 AM

Is a 12.5:1 idle a problem? Will the plugs foul at that mixture?

Depends on how strong your ignition is.

23tbucket · « **Reply #426 on:** August 23, 2011, 02:36:20 PM »

Ideally you would shoot for 13.5 - 14.5 for a nice smooth idle in a water cooled car engine. From what I've read most motorcycle engines tend to idle nicest around 12.5. Your plugs will be just fine...unless you are idling the engine for extended times.....but you will probably overheat the engine before the plugs stop working. I have the cold idle on my DOHC at 10.5..never had any plug problems.

12.5 is a nice safe zone for most of the engine loads at all speeds.

13.2 will give you the most power

shoot for 11.4 - 11.8 under boost

never go into boost 12.5 - 13.0

For those just starting out with your programming with a natural aspirated engine set ALL your fueling around 12.8 AFR. The engine will run excellant at all speeds and loads. Once you learn a bit then you can "play" with things.

750essess · « **Reply #427 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:52:00 PM »

heres the table u wanted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7530665@N06/6074454677/#
i checked the afr on carbs and it idled best at 13.5 to 1. Doesnt seem to hurt it running rich but it sure makes your eyes burn lol.

23tbucket · « **Reply #428 on:** August 23, 2011, 06:39:02 PM »

You betcha...that looks good. Your table should help the folks just starting out....good place for them to start for sure. Thank you.

Here is my VE table...remember this engine is supercharged:

My AFR table:

My injection control:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66697744@N05/6075185104/#

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #429 on:** August 24, 2011, 08:21:15 AM »

Thank you guys

Probably saved me some time here

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #430 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:18:36 AM »

What ignition would you guys choose to go with the miqrosquirt? Dyna? Looking for a easy solution that would work well with the microsquirt?
Thanks guys

23tbucket · « **Reply #431 on:** August 24, 2011, 11:58:12 AM »

Dyna S would work fine...so would Hondaman's...any electronic ignition should give a nice clean "tach" signal for the Microsquirt. The "tach" signal can be taken from either of the coils positive posts. Some have had to add a resistor in the wire from/to the ECM..others needed diodes? On my SOHC I have the Power/Arc ignition....it has a separate tach wire allready in place. On my DOHC I used the stock ignition. I had the tach signal wired in three different ways and it worked fine in all positions. #1: ECM Tach connected to positive on one coil. #2: ECM Tach connected to both coils with two diodes #3: ECM Tach connected to negative on one coil.
I don't think the DOHC coils really have a + or - ? I might be wrong............Basically all the ECM wants is one clean electrically generated "signal" every time the crankshaft makes one revolution.
I initially tried to get a tach signal using the stock SOHC points ignition.....didn't work for me at all?
On my next bike with fuel injection I am going to do something similar to what 750essess has done and have the microsquirt control the ignition and fuel. All the ignitors are built into the microsquirt allready...and it's part of what you pay for. For me it was mind boggling enough just getting through the fueling part let alone trying to sort out ignition as well. It would be awesome to be able to change timing curves with the laptop.

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #432 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:22:19 PM »

I have Hondamans ignition, but did not know if it would work.. Also feel that I will have more than enough with sorting out the injection. So need something simple for the ignition till I am up and running.

Can I just download the software for the Miqrosqirt and start playing with it on my computer..? Or do i have to hook up the ECU?

Thanks again

750essess · « **Reply #433 on:** August 24, 2011, 01:32:38 PM »

Quote from: 23tbucket on August 23, 2011, 06:39:02 PM

You betcha...that looks good. Your table should help the folks just starting out....good place for them to start for sure. Thank you.

Here is my VE table...remember this engine is supercharged:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66697744@N05/6074645833/#

My AFR table:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66697744@N05/6075185054/#

My injection control:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66697744@N05/6075185104/#

I would have expected your ve numbers to be higher when your in boost. The VE numbers are supposed to represent the volumetric efficiency of the engine and when its boosting it should be higher than 100 ve. 100 ve represents perfect theoretical cylinder filling naturally aspirated so yours should be above that. Notice in my my ve table it peaks at highest torque and highest horspower, this is where the engine is filling the cylinders the best. Mine go above 100 some because I moved down the required fuel to give me more resolution at idle. Possibly its not going above 100 because you have the afr table on the rich side (which is what u want ) if you have it set to incorporate AFR in fuel equation this would add more fuel than normal.

750essess · « **Reply #434 on:** August 24, 2011, 01:49:17 PM »

you can download the free tunerstudio from efianylitics.com . features are added if you pay for it but free version is good to start.

23tbucket · « **Reply #435 on:** August 24, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »

Lordmember;
http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/

750essess; Oh for sure..I've got lots to learn yet. I understand you can go up to 225 % in the VE tables. I'm still grasping how much the required fuel changes the needed VE numbers in the table. That's why I was curious what you had for required fuel. It was nice to see we were both real close. If the newcomers set their required fuel around 4.6 - 5.2 and two squirts simultaneous...this should be a good place for them to start? I think we have the same size (240cc or is it 270cc?) injectors? My throttle bodies are from the older GSX R600. The four have no throttle plates...just the injectors. I have a fifth GSX R750 throttle body with no injector for the air on the supercharger suction side.
I've got an O2 sensor mounted on the bike and I watch things pretty close. The O2 gauge on the bike and the O2 readings going into the computer are very close. I do want things a bit on the rich side for safety for now. I'm still trying to get my idle and just off idle areas set where I am happy..then I hope to gain access to a dynometer at the local motorcycle training college. Let them new young computer wizards have at it!!!

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #436 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:33:00 PM »

Thank you guys:)

Clifford, I looked at your VE map, and the rpm scale 2500rpm and 3000rpm come up two times? Any reason for that?

750essess · « **Reply #437 on:** August 25, 2011, 04:52:51 AM »

duh I spelled analytics wrong lol. I have injectors set to 2 per cycle alternating.

23tbucket · « **Reply #438 on:** August 25, 2011, 04:02:25 PM »

Lordmember: Whoops...don't know what happened....I've put on about a hundred miles with them funny numbers? Fixed the RPM's to what it was supposed to be...

Here are a couple of earlier tables that I was using...the engine ran real good...but the idling was quite bad...I put in lots of low end RPM's hoping to solve some of the engine hunting. I think it's easier to tune if all the numbers increase proportionally for both RPM's and MAP's.

VE Table:

AFR Table

750essess: Have you tried using two squirts simultanous? I have tried two squirts alternating but I found the engine idled much better with simultanous. You might have to change the required fuel a little bit?

750essess · « **Reply #439 on:** August 25, 2011, 05:11:42 PM »

I did try 2 simultaneous. it halfed my idle pulse width which put me into the non linear region of the injectors. it ran like crap. if the pulsewidth gets below 2ms it gets unstable.

23tbucket · « **Reply #440 on:** August 25, 2011, 07:01:00 PM »

750essess: That's interesting...you should be okay right down to below 1.0ms? Both my bikes idle around 1.4ms.

Have you adjusted the injector open time in the injector characteristics to 1.1ms? Is your battery keeping up?

750essess · « **Reply #441 on:** August 26, 2011, 04:17:19 AM »

it's diplaying the pulsewidth as 1.5ms ? the displayed pulsewidth I thought was effective pw plus opening time. which should be 2.6 in your case. So I would be idling around 1.5 ms less opening time.

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #442 on:** August 26, 2011, 08:17:49 AM »

Thank you guys

It is very generous of you to share your wisdom.. Makes it lot easier to start out.. Thanks..

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #443 on:** August 26, 2011, 10:17:15 AM »

What ECU definition should i use when creating a project for the microsquirt. Have not yet connected it so have to do it manually?

Thanks

23tbucket · « **Reply #444 on:** August 26, 2011, 08:01:33 PM »

750essess. You really need to get the engine running 2 squirts simultaneous...trust me on this one. Keep lowering your req'd fuel (whilst set to similtanous)...you will eventually come to a req'd fuel that the engine wants...and you will clearly hear the differance. The engine will idle smoother and will have way crispier throttle responce. I think some need to use alternating if they have a camshaft with lots of overlap and poor manifold readings? I've gone as low as 3.2ms and the engine ran okay. I am pretty sure 5.0 req'd fuel might be a bit too high for our engines. Don't go by what the fuel calculator says...it is close...but really better suited to car engine stuff. Our little engines need this req'd fuel to be a lot less than the calculation.

Lordmember: I know you are wanting to start learning a bit on the fuel injection ahead of time. Personally, I would wait until I had everything wired up properly...power-up...hook up the laptop...then start the learning process
I use "microsquirt" on my DOHC and "MS2-Microsquirt BG 2.890" on my SOHC. Maybe check with the supplier of your Microsquirt ECM and see what format they recommend.
I hope to learn some tuning tricks from you someday....seriously.

This is a real good read...from 2005...This was my inspiration:
http://www.cb1100f.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=homemade+fuel&start=0

lordmember1969 · « **Reply #445 on:** August 27, 2011, 12:01:51 AM »

Thank you again Clifford. Will hook it up:) Just trying to get familiar whit the program:) Downloaded and upgraded.. So just have to get myself to wire it

23tbucket · « **Reply #446 on:** August 27, 2011, 06:53:08 AM »

This is the most informative place I have found for using EFI. They have added some very good videos. Sorry...I should have posted this link sooner! This will keep you busy......
Excellant stuff....check them out:
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/

65Ch3v3LL3 · « **Reply #447 on:** August 27, 2011, 09:32:18 AM »

Hey guys, I'm new around here but have been modifying bikes for a while. I just got into the older Hondas and picked up a CB650. Anyhow I was thinking fuel injection and thats how I came upon this thread. I see most of you guys are not using the ignition portion yet. While I was researching the EFI I found this guys page who did EFI with the ignition on an 82 Yamaha. It might be useful to you guys. I'm gathering my parts now so that when I get home from Afghan I can start my build. Thanks for all the great info here.

Do a search for hal-pc efi yamaha

Apparently I can't post the external link.

750essess · « **Reply #448 on:** August 27, 2011, 01:27:19 PM »

tried 2 simultaneous and 4 alternating this morning engine ran the same at 2 sim but didnt like 4 alt. Dont know why yours liked it better. I think i can get a super smooth idle with sequential when I get it set up this winter. I can then time the injections for each cylinder.

fuwad84 · « **Reply #449 on:** August 27, 2011, 02:41:56 PM »

So any chance of there being a kit available for us morons? Or maybe just a list of successful parts you've used so far.

News:

Author Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things (Read 167709 times)

fuwad84