Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things

[23tbucket]

Nice to see others interested in EFI....

65Ch3v3LL3: The biggest hurdle in installing electronic fuel injection on our old Honda's is the charging system. I'm thinking the 650 might even be worse in this department than the 750? 750essess has upgraded his charging system from a different motorcycle. I used an external alternator. My DOHC will work fine if I leave the headlight off until I'm out on the road with higher rpm's. If you can solve this battery voltage problem...the rest is quite easy.

750essess: You know, I have come to the conclusion that this microsquirt system is very forgiving as far as setting everything up. I think a lot of it comes from the way one gets his "tach" signal? Bottom line for newcomers...play around with the settings until you find a setting that works the best for your engine. What works on one engine may or may not work on another. When I first set up my SOHC, I thought I could just take the program from my DOHC and put it into the SOHC....nada...didn't work...the programming wasn't even close.
   Once you are off idle it won't make a whole lot of difference if you are squirting simultaneous or alternating....the speed at which these injectors work is hard to comprehend.
   That is going to be quite a feat to have your injectors sequential and have them squirt at a the perfect time before the piston is ATDC? You certainly have talent......and tons of patience!!!

Fuwad84: Nope...no plug and play EFI available for these CB750 Honda's. What you read and see here is basically IT!!!
It is not difficult to put fuel injection on these engines.....you just have to be determined that this is what you really want.

[65Ch3v3LL3]

23tbucket: The charging system is one of the first things I'm going to address. I plan on swapping it out for another bikes charging system as well. I have a theory on what will work but I need to get measurements on my stock components first and I can't quite do that here in Afghan. Hopefully when I get home I can get that sorted out. Then its on to the EFI and my suspension upgrades. Last thing once its built and running will be a big bore in the future.

I'm planning a little different route on my tank setup than you guys did though. I also have a 08 Harley V-Rod Night Rod Special that I ride.  So using it as inspiration, I'm planning on doing an under seat fuel tank out of aluminum and utilize the stock 600rr in tank fuel pump. This will also give me a float for a fuel level gauge. Then I'm going to use the tank area for my ECU, reg/rec, fuse box, and coils. This should effectively lower the center of gravity on the bike and even the weight out more which should increase the handling I hope. I will start my own thread when I get home and get started. I'm gathering parts right now.

[Syscrush]

I'm planning on doing an under seat fuel tank out of aluminum and utilize the stock 600rr in tank fuel pump. This will also give me a float for a fuel level gauge. Then I'm going to use the tank area for my ECU, reg/rec, fuse box, and coils.

Cool!

Does the 600RR actually have a float, or does it use a thermistor-type sending unit?  I would suggest the latter - no moving parts and you can have a nice inconspicuous single LED on your dash for fuel level.

[65Ch3v3LL3]

Cool!

Does the 600RR actually have a float, or does it use a thermistor-type sending unit?  I would suggest the latter - no moving parts and you can have a nice inconspicuous single LED on your dash for fuel level.

It has a float but I think it will be fine. All of this is in theory at the moment since I'm way over here. I'm pretty sure I'll have enough room under the seat to get at least 3 gallons. The V-Rod tank is not much bigger than that area. I'm planning on using the 600rr throttle bodies too so I will basically have a complete OEM system except it will run of the Microsquirt.

First thing I have to overcome though is the charging system. I would like to use a Harley charging system since they are 32amps all the way up to 50amps however I don't know if the rotor and stator will physically fit. I'm looking into all that now. Basically my idea would be to turn down the stock rotor and use it as a bolt on adapter for the Harley rotor. Mount the stator in the cover and use a modern rec/reg unit. You can get the whole Harley setup on eBay for a little over $100. It would be a cheap fix if it fits inside the cover.

[23tbucket]

65Ch3v3LL3: Using the stock fuel pump from your doner 600rr and building a special tank is a real good idea. These in-tank pumps run quiet, draw low amps, won't heat the gas, and have a built-in regulator. They will keep a rock solid 43 psi at the fuel rail all the time.
I made a separate little 1 gallon tank on my SOHC. The gas flows from the main tank into the second tank;


This is one I'm getting ready for my third fuely;


I sure hope you are able to adapt the Harley charging system. It defiantly would keep up with the extra fuel injection load. Make sure you take lots of pictures.

You be careful over in there in that "sandbox". Thanks for your service.

[65Ch3v3LL3]

23tbucket,

Thats a great idea as well. I am only working on theory at this time. We will see how it works out when I have the bike in front of me. At least your idea gives me a second option. What pump and flange are you using in your setup? I was planning on buying a bent tank off eBay and using it as a template for machining out a flange for the OEM pump since I would like to do an aluminum tank. I also want to see how the tank is vented so that I can duplicate the OEM setup. It's really frustrating not being able to put my hands on the bike. This is gonna kill me until I can get home. Until then I have to live vicariously through you guys!

Tim

[Retro Rocket]

23T, does the pump tank require a breather, i have been thinking about that set up for a while now, i planned to put the tank next to where the battery is and just use one of the new type small sealed batteries. I am going to do a VFR800 alternator conversion to make up for lost power.....   Your tanks look great....

[23tbucket]

I certainly aplogize for hacking 750essess's threads....................

65CH; I used a GSX R750 fuel pump...I think all the Suzuki pumps are similar in size. I removed the float stuff from mine. These pumps are over $700.00 new. You can get them on ebay for around $50.00.


I bought a dented Suki tank for $150.00....too much..but limited supply to be found in Canada.


Chiseled out the pump mounting boss;




Machined off the extras;




Retro: All I have is two petcocks on both sides of the main tank. There is a hose from each petcock to two separate fittings on the very top off the second tank. No filters are used between the two tanks...just one real good one between the pump and fuel rail. The petcocks have pretty good screens in them and my tank is clean, clean, clean! You have to have a gas cap with a vent in it...most are anyway. Just make sure flow can go in (air) and out (fuel) of the petcocks. You could use one petcock feeding the second tank and have a vent line from the second tank back into the main tank...but this line would have to enter the main tank above the gas level or into the gas cap like the Suzuki does.

Note: By using these in-tank pumps...all you need is one line from the pump to the fuel rail with a filter in between......done deal...no extra return lines or regulators...almost too easy!!!

[65Ch3v3LL3]

You could also run a hard line through the petcock opening to the top of the tank and let it vent that way. Then you wouldn't need a visible line to the top of the tank. So a line from the top of the small tank to the bottom of the original but is then connected to a pipe that ends near the top of the original tank. I hope this makes sense LOL. And yeah sorry to 750essess for hijacking your thread.

[Retro Rocket]

Thanks for the replies guys, i don't think essess will mind too much, we are all learning here.....

[Tintop]

subscribed, been lurking for awhile, but keep missing posts.   EFI is one of the options I'm considering for my JMR 1080.

[fastbroshi]

  Fuwad, these guys are taking "kits" sold by Microsquirt to get them started.   I think they consist of various cpu components and such, with lots of how-tos on their website - even dedicated forums.  There's lots of parameters that have to be customized to each particular application.  So if you're asking if anyone has a kit specifically customized for the old Hondas, I'd have to say no.

[lordmember1969]

I certainly aplogize for hacking 750essess's threads....................

65CH; I used a GSX R750 fuel pump...I think all the Suzuki pumps are similar in size. I removed the float stuff from mine. These pumps are over $700.00 new. You can get them on ebay for around $50.00.


I bought a dented Suki tank for $150.00....too much..but limited supply to be found in Canada.


Chiseled out the pump mounting boss;




Machined off the extras;




Retro: All I have is two petcocks on both sides of the main tank. There is a hose from each petcock to two separate fittings on the very top off the second tank. No filters are used between the two tanks...just one real good one between the pump and fuel rail. The petcocks have pretty good screens in them and my tank is clean, clean, clean! You have to have a gas cap with a vent in it...most are anyway. Just make sure flow can go in (air) and out (fuel) of the petcocks. You could use one petcock feeding the second tank and have a vent line from the second tank back into the main tank...but this line would have to enter the main tank above the gas level or into the gas cap like the Suzuki does.

Note: By using these in-tank pumps...all you need is one line from the pump to the fuel rail with a filter in between......done deal...no extra return lines or regulators...almost too easy!!!

Clifford..
How small do you think this tank can be made? for the gsxr fuel pump? and still work ? If it can be made relative small it can be "hidden"  lets say under seat hump or under swingarm? Do not want it as a reservoir but an easy fuel pump solution ??

 Thanks again my friend

[750essess]

I have no problem at all with everybody putting their efi info in this thread, hijack away lol. I have a set of drawins for the cam sensor assy I want to make. It will go into the tach drive hole in the valve cover. Just need to find someone to make it.

[750essess]

Lordmember;
http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/

750essess;   Oh for sure..I've got lots to learn yet. I understand you can go up to 225 % in the VE tables. I'm still grasping how much the required fuel changes the needed VE numbers in the table. That's why I was curious what you had for required fuel. It was nice to see we were both real close. If the newcomers set their required fuel around 4.6 - 5.2  and two squirts simultaneous...this should be a good place for them to start? I think we have the same size (240cc or is it 270cc?) injectors? My throttle bodies are from the older GSX R600. The four have no throttle plates...just the injectors. I have a fifth GSX R750 throttle body with no injector for the air on the supercharger suction side.
  I've got an O2 sensor mounted on the bike and I watch things pretty close. The O2 gauge on the bike and the O2 readings going into the computer are very close. I do want things a bit on the rich side for safety for now. I'm still trying to get my idle and just off idle areas set where I am happy..then I hope to gain access to a dynometer at the local motorcycle training college. Let them new young computer wizards have at it!!!

The req fuel number is just a scaling multiplier number. Say you have req fuel of 1ms for example and a ve bin is 10 and its injecting 1ms pulse, if u change req fuel to 5ms the your pulsewidth would be 5 times that at that bin.

[lordmember1969]

I have no problem at all with everybody putting their efi info in this thread, hijack away lol. I have a set of drawins for the cam sensor assy I want to make. It will go into the tach drive hole in the valve cover. Just need to find someone to make it.

That will be interesting, will buy one from you if you are interested in selling when done?

[23tbucket]

65Ch; You probably could get away with just one good sized hose from the main tank to the second tank. All you got to do is make sure that the gas will flow down and allow the air in the second tank to escape back into the main tank.

Lordmember; My second tank holds about 1 gallon. You probably can get away with a smaller one or even have the pump on it's side. You just got to make sure the whole pump part that goes into a tank is submerged in gas all the time. I wonder if the gas may get a bit warm in a real small tank?

750essess; The tack drive you are working on..sounds very interesting....is it using an electronic pick-up with magnets or something else? I would be interested in one myself. Thanks for the req'd fuel info.

Aaaaand, I got something that is going to make my tuning a whole lot simpler.....
    My youngest son didn't like his "Netbook"....too small...so he gave it to me:


It will fit real nice inside my jacket:


My daughter found a USB cable and programm to hook the "Windows 7" netbook up to the bikes microsquirt. She downloaded all my programs into the little netbook. My daughter also set up the netbook so it keeps working with the lid closed. Got to manually shut it off. Now I can easily datalog as I'm riding in megatune or tunerstudio.

[65Ch3v3LL3]

23T,

Does that netbook have a solid state drive or a regular hard drive? If its solid state..(memory card) then you are good to go. If its a traditional hard drive you will probably destroy the drive riding down the road with it running. Traditional hard drives will take some shock while reading or writing to the disk but I would think being on end and the shocks from riding a motorcycle down the road could cause problems. Just a heads up. Then again I'm usually overly cautious too.

[Syscrush]

Does that netbook have a solid state drive or a regular hard drive?

It doesn't hurt to be cautious, but if it's tucked into his jacket it'll probably be fine as long as it's not banging against the tank.

[Tintop]

I've been wondering how you would monitor, and make changes while road testing.

Why not just put it in a small tank bag, with foam under it.  Easily accessable, and there are no wires or connections between the rider & the mircosquirt.  Less chance to loose data.  my .02

The cam sensor sounds quite interesting, you guys are light years ahead of my EFI knowledge base.  A lot more reading to do.

[23tbucket]

Guys: The little netbook must be solid state drive? I had to get an external disc reader to download the USB cable programme. So it should work good.
Tintop, I took my regular sized laptop along once while riding...thinking I could stop and change things if needed.....You can't see the darn screen out in any kind of sunlight! My intention is hook up the little netbook to the bike ECM.....start data logging with tunerstudio...and go for a nice long ride...come back...play back the data...and see where fueling changes need to be made......make and save the changes...do another ride and data log again...and again.....as long as it takes!

[Tintop]

Guys: The little netbook must be solid state drive? I had to get an external disc reader to download the USB cable programme. So it should work good.
Tintop, I took my regular sized laptop along once while riding...thinking I could stop and change things if needed.....You can't see the darn screen out in any kind of sunlight! My intention is hook up the little netbook to the bike ECM.....start data logging with tunerstudio...and go for a nice long ride...come back...play back the data...and see where fueling changes need to be made......make and save the changes...do another ride and data log again...and again.....as long as it takes!

See, that's why I'm still at the reading stage.

[65Ch3v3LL3]

23T, It maybe fine if it isn't a solid state drive like I said I am just usually overly cautious. Drives in laptops are mounted to absorb certain amounts of shock and not cause damage. It all depends on how rough the roads are and how stiff your suspension is. Give it a shot and see.

[Syscrush]

23T, It maybe fine if it isn't a solid state drive like I said I am just usually overly cautious. Drives in laptops are mounted to absorb certain amounts of shock and not cause damage. It all depends on how rough the roads are and how stiff your suspension is. Give it a shot and see.

Keep it from bumping or sitting against the tank and you should be fine.  I'd put it in a backpack instead of inside my jacket.

[750essess]

here's some 3d's of the cam sensor housing. the sensor will be screwed into the side of the large section. There will also be a cap to seal it up. Would like to use a tappet adjust cap for the cover, may be to hard to cut the threads on the inside of the housing with equipment people i know have though. If we cant swing it will just make a flat cover with a few screws to hold it down.